How To Build A Global Indie Music Career Without a Label ft. Matt Hansen

I had that real like aha moment of like this is really happening when people put their lights up for this new song that I put out and I kind of forgot the words for about 15 seconds because you're just looking at it, you're like, this is what I've like imagined my whole life. Today on One More Time, we welcome in Matt Hanson, an independent artist that's built a massive music career that includes millions of monthly listeners, over one billion streams, global tours, and tons of viral content. You just kind of realize that it's the same show, but you look out and there are 10,000 lights instead of a thousand. The interesting thing is this, he's far from being a household name. Most people still haven't heard of him, and approximately zero indie artists have studied what he's built. It's me and my manager basically running this whole thing. Um and it's intense, it's exhausting, but at a certain point, you basically just become your own label, and then you can start hiring people. So in this episode, we break down the whole blueprint. How he used covers to get attention, how he turned that attention into fans of his original music, why touring has been a massive part of his growth, and the high-level strategies he's used to dominate social media. The one thing that I've been focusing on lately with TikTok and with Instagram is giving people more of a story to watch while I'm teasing the song.

Basically giving them a small music video while I'm teasing the song, giving them a piece of like a like a view into my mind. This episode is the perfect representation of what is possible from an independent music career in 2026. You can build something huge without being so famous that you can't go out to eat, and no label necessary. I just think back to that time, and I'm so happy that I stuck it out during like a couple of like really, really difficult months, so that I could get to this point where now I can do these whole tours, these massive tours around Europe, and I still own a hundred percent of my masters. One more time. Henry, Ben, can you believe we have Matt Hansen on the podcast? I can't. Let's go. Can't believe it. I couldn't either. It's funny. I searched my email for Matt Hanson looking for the calendar invite for this interview. And I saw I had flyers sent uh from like Terminal West You.

I think you had a show here in Atlanta last year, and you popped up in my email. I was like, man, it's already in been known about Matt. And you didn't go to the show. What a fucking rookie mistake, Henry. Going to the next one. But no, so appreciate you coming on. Yeah, appreciate coming on the podcast, man. Because honestly, you know, I've recently become a fan and like looked into your journey as an independent artist. And in my mind, I thought we had had all the bases covered, bro. Never. Until we interviewed uh indie mama Jane Lee, who's also like a you know, artist advocate, all about helping, you know, independent artists build their careers. And she brought up this French artist who she recently discovered on a live stream of hers. And like this dude's a superstar in Europe. Like he's touring all across Europe, you know, hundreds of millions of streams. And she was so embarrassed about like not knowing who this artist was. And I kind of felt the same way when I discovered Matt. I was like, how the fuck? That's how it is now. But it's like that that should give everyone out there hope that it's like you don't have to be known by everyone to build a fucking massive global career as an indie artist. Yes.

Um so in my mind, you're one of the ones that like more artists should be studying, you know, how you've kind of like risen to um you know the level that you're at today. So really, really excited for this conversation, man. Thank you, man. Me too. you're fresh off your first arena show back in February. Um, and honestly, you've you've had a long touring trajectory, or I guess you know, a successful touring trajectory. Uh, but really just want to focus first on like that that first arena show, bro. Like, talk to me about like the feelings leading up to that. Then talk to me about like what's going through your mind and body when you're on stage in an arena for the first time. And then I want to talk about like when you get back to your hotel room, right? Like that moment when it all you've just done your first arena show, right? Post arena clarity. Exactly. So it's exactly what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So kind of walk me through like the days, weeks, you know, whatever leading up to the show. Um, and then you know, we'll kind of go from there. Yeah, um, I mean, it was it's it's so surreal, it's so wild.

I think what's so funny is like it was a show kind of at the end of this tour that I was doing, and so I had such a long time to like think about it and like prepare for it. And then what what ended up happening is is like you just kind of realize that it's the same show, but you look out and there are 10,000 lights instead of a thousand. Um and I had that real like aha moment of like this is really happening um when people put their lights up for uh this new song that I put out somewhere in between. And I was just looking out and I I kind of forgot the words for about you know 15 seconds because you're just looking at it. you're like this is what I've like imagined my whole life. This is like you know, the kind of the kind of view that every artist dreams of. And so it was so spectacular. It was so fun, and I feel like especially because I've been playing so many shows, it it still felt normal. It still felt like I was just on any other stage. It was just there are more people there to see me. And um, I was nervous at first, but then I feel like every performer, you know, once you get going, you just you just sink right into it.

And yeah, then when I got home, I'm like, man, I don't kind of want to do that again. Let's uh let's let's keep doing that over and over and over. Gotta work a lot harder to make that happen. But you know Do you have that like blackout where like you step on stage and you're just kind of in this zone and then it's over all of a sudden? I have tried very hard to make sure that that doesn't happen to me anymore. Just because I enjoy playing the shows so much that I don't want to like wake up after the show and be like, fuck, I completely forget what just happened. You know, I I'm I'm I don't know what just happened. Um so I try and be really, really present when I'm up there. And if there are any nerves, I just I'll either just tell the audience because I think that that's it, it's like the easiest thing that you can do to just you know get on their level very, very quickly and not feel those nerves just in your in your chest, you know. But also like just channeling that nervousness into excitement. I feel like it's not that hard to do at a certain point, and you just like are excited to be out there, like just excited to play this, play the songs and play the shows and be confident in in uh in what you're doing.

Yeah, emotional vulnerability. It's so like just based on his music, he would be the guy that tells the audience, hey, I'm a little nervous right now. It's so on brand. And then also, but I also feel like it's kind of where we're at, bro, in 2026, right? It's like I don't think that we need our artist, you know, stars that we look up to. I don't think we need to be looking up to them as much anymore. Like we can kind of just be seeing them eye to eye as like just you know, peers in this shit. So I feel like just in like the social media landscape that we live in, like we almost feel like we know our favorite artists on such a like deeper, you know, emotional level already that it's like, oh, that's just my bro, Matt, like telling me he's a little nervous. Like, oh exactly, exactly just nervous Matt Matt again. Classic Matt stuff, you know classic yeah so so then rewind us right back to your very first show yeah that you can remember what room did you play how many people were there right like kind of compare and contrast the yeah 10,000 people that were at this last arena or this first arena show uh versus your very first show overall I want to just like hear about the stark contrast oh man it was I it was in San Francisco I played uh Cafe du Nord which is like a 200 cap venue. I also remember like just how excited the room felt and there was there was so much like because it was the first one first headline show that I had ever played and so I'd never done a full set of like an hour of my songs before.

And I just remember being so like kind of meek and confused as to why people were there to see me. I think that every artist who like starts this out it's very weird. Like you you walk out there and they like know everything about you. Like they know your songs they know like where you grow up like all of these things they know about you and you know nothing about them. And so it's very nerve wracking and it's scary to like be like man I these people really like are like they paid to watch this they paid to watch something you know and so just my confidence like in in the last I that was three years ago or like two and a half years ago and just my confidence in the last couple of years like playing shows and and knowing like no I'm I'm I'm here to like let my emotions out and let people hear the songs in the most raw way possible and just like be myself on stage and not having to like be this alter ego or anything like that. I think like that kind of confidence is so important. That's probably the biggest thing that's that's grown since since that first show.

Um up to now. Yeah. That's wild. I I remember I was I was working with an artist, and you know, we did a similar like 200 cap sold-out show in his hometown. Yeah, and like he threw up on the side of the stage because he was so because like these people are like chanting his name, and it's like he was like kind of mingling with people like before the show, and then just all the nerves just started like rushing in all at once, and he just lost it. Like, right? He's a very emotional, like kind of just chaotic dude uh overall. And I just remember him puke. You remember this? He pukes most of us. He does, to be fair. But this one in particular, yeah. So yeah, like it was surreal. Even for me managing him at the time, it was like totally seeing 200 people sing the words to songs that I got to see made in a studio session. Like even for me, that was like mind-blowing. So I can't imagine for like the artist who wrote the damn thing to see that many people like locked in with you, had paid money to be there, they're buying merch, they're all wearing the fucking t-shirts already that they already bought at the merch booth. It was yeah, it was a surreal experience.

So I'm I'm really you know glad that you had kind of a similar one, right? And so in 2025, you did 80 shows I read and like across an insane amount of countries globally, right? Yep. Yep. And so what do you think you learned, right? Like just from a producing a live show perspective, like putting on the best live show possible. What do you think you did learn by just being that consistent, uh, you know, from a touring perspective this last year? I mean, I think one of the main things for for my own sanity was I needed to kind of find a sense of like community and and home on the road. I think that's always difficult as an artist too. Like, I I am a pretty emotional guy. You guys probably see that through all the songs. And uh it gets difficult when you're like going through reliving all of these things every night, and you're not around the people that normally make you feel like you're having fun and like things like that. And so you have to really create that environment.

And so I I I really focus on that, but then also in just making the show as enjoyable as possible for other people. I've realized that I did have to give like a hundred percent of my emotion to every song. I think that when I don't do that, I in my head at least, it it just feels like I'm I'm kind of shortchanging everyone on like the actual point of the song. Like I want them to feel what I felt when I was writing it. It's definitely taxing, but it's also kind of therapeutic at the same time, and I think it's therapeutic for me and for the crowd as well, because they're kind of seeing my emotions and the emotional roller coaster that is the show, you know, because it's not just like a rock show. It it is fun, and I'm playing a lot of up tempo songs, but there are some, you know, deeply depressing songs in there, and and sometimes, you know, that's a difficult thing to give at a show and make it interesting. And so, yeah, just making sure that I'm a hundred percent like into that emotion for every single song and and giving the audience you know the kind of show that that I think they deserve, you know. Yeah, so much pressure, man.

It's a lot of pressure, so much pressure. I'm curious if you see any like similarities uh in your fan base. Like maybe you're going to a brand new city, maybe a brand new country, and you just kind of know what like a Matt Hansen fan is like, and you're able to like use that information maybe to tap into them quicker, you know are there like totally do you know you know your typical fan pretty well even if you're going to a brand new place I would say that there's definitely like an MO there's always like a very very specific kind of person that comes to my show. I think that like one that makes the shows really really fun because they're always very kind and they're always very like ready to emotionally open up which is awesome because I feel like that's kind of the point of the show like people are coming to see the the sad songs most of the time like that's their main reason why they're there. And that's that's me. Like that's what I sometimes I I will go to shows because I'm like I need some sad ass music right now. Like that's what I need right now. This is crazy to me. bro. Yeah I know it's wild but there's so many of those people out there and so that's nice to like rely on that I don't have to like shy away from like making the show slightly sad and emotional.

Like I don't have to play all these up tempo songs all the time to make them interested so I can always rely on that which is really nice because I feel like sometimes when you're opening for someone who's more upbeat you know they can feel like you know all right man like we get it you're sad bro let's move on let's move on dude come on yeah but everybody there is pretty invested and and into that stuff so it's that I can always rely on which is great. Yeah so when did you notice that or because again my default goes to like what maybe some of your like headliners that you've supported are where it's like all right bro like chill with the sad shit man like this is a concert like give them the give them the faster up to but like yeah, when did you actually realize that maybe the opposite is true? That like they're actually more there for the sad shit. Yeah how many shows you'd have to do to figure this out? Yeah, yeah. I think um I did a headline tour uh this no no no last year um at around this time, and it was like my first like really like legit headline tour. Like I was playing bigger venues, I was playing Thousand Caps, and that like it was like legit venues, you know.

And I could tell that whenever I would play these sad songs, I I had this section of the set that was kind of stripped down, and whenever I would play that, people would like really, really, really lock in and they would really just focus. And there was like almost no sound, nobody was talking. It was just like direct focus on what I was doing and the piano ballads and things like that. And I think it was like such a good lesson for me. In I I can lean into that emotional side, and people are ready and they're so willing to just like let those feelings hit them. And I think that's so cool. And that's kind of the point of the show. It's it's meant to be pretty therapeutic, you know. It's it's it's it's not meant to be like I'm gonna black out and and you know, figure it out during the show and rage. Like, there's no moshing really at a Matt Hansen show. Sure, sure. There has been before on accident, which is hilarious because it was like the saddest mosh fit of all time. But when was that?

That was in that was in New York. Um I did a show in New York, and uh people were moshing to something to remember. And I was like, I don't think you guys understand the point of the song, but I'm but I'm all for the vibes. I'm I'm all for it. So that was that was pretty awesome. But um normally that doesn't happen. Normally that doesn't happen. Yeah, that's great. I I think it's such good advice for artists too, because again, something that's kind of a recurring theme on the podcast is like we think we know we don't know what works, right? And you might have thought the opposite again, that like, okay, they're probably gonna, you know, at a concert, they're gonna want to maybe be a little more up tempo and like kind of be drinking and partying. We think we know what type of content is gonna hit. We think we know which songs are gonna be the hit singles we think we'll know. And it's like your fans will tell you a lot of times. Yeah, just just being open, right, to observing what's going on here, you know, and like even us, we gotta kind of look at like all right, what kind of episodes are our you know, community really tapped into and commenting the most and like wanting to see more of, and it might not always be the ones that we thought or the ones that we even enjoy recording the most because it's like at the end of the day, once we like record an episode and put it out, it's like it's just like putting out a song. It's like they're gonna do with it what they want, right?

Um so it's it's cool to hear you say that you kind of just like notice through experience that people were locking the fuck in with those like you know, kind of more emotional, sad, like deeper ballads um that were stripped down, and like then maybe just having that knowledge to then maybe double down on those in future shows or at least not shy away from it uh in further set set list, you know, curation. So that's really cool. Totally. As an indie artist, I mean it the the funding of all of this, I assume landed all on Matt Hansen's wallet, right? Yeah, it is it is it's really scary and it's brutal. And I'm not gonna lie, like I think that there are a lot of difficulties that come with uh being, you know, a fully independent artist who's like basically self-funding everything. Like I have to self-fund the tour, you know, and that is not cheap. And if you've ever toured before, you know that basically, unless you're selling out like a thousand cap venues, 1500 cap venues, you're not even making money, you're losing money every time. So it's it's pretty much just an investment in yourself.

But the one thing that I always think about is you know, at the beginning of my career, I was basically just waiting on distro kid checks so that I could get that like little sum of money so that I could pay my rent and then I could pay the producer fee for the next song. And I just think back to that time, and I'm so happy that I stuck it out during like a couple of like really really difficult months so that I could get to this point where now I can do these whole tours, these massive tours around Europe, and I still own a hundred percent of my masters, and it's it it genuinely like thank you, thank you, thank you. And uh when you when you realize like how much a label is taking from you financially, just simply that, it it's it's very shocking. And so I I really try and tell other artists to at least understand, you know, the kind of breakdown of what you're gonna be getting from you know your label and what you're giving up, you know. And if you can struggle it out, if you can, you know, just toughen through it and figure out a way to make make ends meet for a little bit and put out songs like that, even just like self-producing and and things like that, save you like two grand a song, you know.

Um and it's just getting like pretty financially savvy at the beginning, and then you can start to be the label, and so that's basically what I'm doing now. Uh, like I I do full, you know, promo campaigns for every song that I put out now, and I had never did that before, you know. You know, that's what a label would do, except in this case, I have the last say. So if I if I love a song and I want to promote it a ton, I can just be like, yeah, it's my money. I'm throwing it at it. You know, we're gonna do that. There's nobody else that's gonna tell me that that I can't do that. And I think that's one of the coolest like creative freedoms that you can have as as an artist. Like, if you really love a song and you really want people to hear it, you can spend money on it. Like, that's that's your prerogative. And so it's it's difficult, but it's so worth it in the end, man. It's so worth it. How risky did it feel when you were funding those like first shows or like the first tour, even I'm not gonna lie, it was basically the first tour that I put on was all of the money I had. Yeah, shit. It was all of the money that I had. You bet it all, folks.

I had literally bet it all. Um, and that's not to say that money still wasn't coming in, but at the time it was all of the money that I had. I had basically no no money um doing that first tour. And I've gotten creative with how to do these things. Most of the tours I've had to fund myself, but we've been able to do like some distribution deals, which is just you kind of loan a percentage of your you know, royalties for a second, which is I think in a lot of ways a lot better um than any other deal that you can do, especially if you want to stay indie and you still want to work hard. And that first section, I think I I have always placed a lot of emphasis on playing live shows and making sure that people understand that like I'm a legit artist, I'm not just on TikTok, and I think that that's so important. And normally labels are very focused on getting that person out on the road, getting them seen, you know, getting them comfortable playing shows. And I was I needed to do that, you know. And I think that it wasn't until I had a couple of like big songs in a row. Um, Let Them Go was my first one that really like gave me the ability to tour.

And then when I had something to remember in 2023, it was pretty much smooth sailing from there because it was just I had a hundred percent of that. And you know, it's done like 220 million streams on Spotify now, and that's enough to fund a bunch of doors. So I think that you know, you just have to stay very, very consistent and not take your foot off the gas, because the second you start doing that and getting really careful with you know, like, oh, but I don't want to like lose money here. It's like this is how it works, this is how you build a business, you have to take those risks and you have to bet on yourself, especially if you've you know rejected all of these label deals and you're like you're really betting, you know? And I and I wouldn't even say it's as much of a bet. I would say it's more of like a a investment, you know, calculated decision. Like it's it's the you you believe in the music that you're making and the numbers aren't lying, you know? Like you're streaming consistently, you're growing on TikTok, growing on Instagram. That's all that matters.

You know, that's what a label's gonna tell you to do anyway. Yeah, but but so how I'm interested in what you're gonna say, but I just want to remind everyone that if you guys are liking this interview with Matt Hanson, please like the video, drop a comment, subscribe to the channel so we can have more interviews with amazing artists like Matt Hanson. And I'm sorry that I have to say this every once in a while, but you guys literally do it when I say it, and it's just how YouTube works. So let's get back to it. So, like, how did you think about the actual like touring math though, right? Because you kind of mentioned like it's like calculated risk, etc. So, like what what were you thinking, right? And what math were you doing when it came to I'm gonna spend X and Y is gonna happen, right? You know what I mean? Like just what what were you how were you looking at the ROI? Basically, the only the only amount of uh return that I was getting is uh social content and like building my fan base, building my live touring fan base. Everything else, like I'll I'll just be very honest.

The first tour I lost like 200 grand. Wow. Yeah. And that's that's how brutal, that's how brutal touring is right now. Um he said brutal earlier, and I was like, maybe a little maybe that's what it is. It's genuinely brutal. And so that's why a label at that stage is so important because they can take that hit, you know? Um, and if they believe in you enough, they will spend it, right? And this is a this is like a like almost two-month headline tour. So it's a long time. You've got a van, you've got a whole band, like there are a lot of things you can cut to make it not worth that much, you know, to make it not cost that much. Sure. Um, but the main thing that's important is like people love seeing live content. I feel like live content goes viral all the time. People love seeing songs live, and also like eventually at a point where you're you know five, ten years into your career, your live touring fan base is is really your like your heart and soul of your financial wealth. You know, that's that's what's gonna make you the real money later on down the road.

And so if there's anything that you should invest in early on, it's that live touring fan base, and making sure that your fans are like there to ride with you to the end. Because I think that people think that social media can do that, and it can, it definitely can, but seeing people in person and them getting to meet you also, and like my first tour every single night, I would go out and say hi to everyone after the show for free. I just do, I would say, I would say what's up, I take pictures, I would I try and be as much as you know, I try to give as much as myself as I could at the beginning. And I think that's it's like that kind of investment. It's it's an emotional investment in your own future. Like these people want to be in your project, and you have to, you know, make them feel wanted and make them feel welcome and and um make them feel like this is like this is their community, you know. And yeah, it's it it definitely at the beginning, you know, and still it's it's a difficult decision to spend that much on on anything, but um it is totally worth it, and it has been, and now I'm at this level where you know we're actually making money on tour, and that's pretty spectacular. Like that's amazing.

Like I don't have to worry about those kind of things anymore, but I had to worry about it for about a year and a half, and it was brutal. It's brutal. You probably you probably wouldn't be here if you hadn't have, you know, taken that loss, you know. Totally, totally. Yeah. So, you know, you've obviously traveled the world now and toured. Um, what's just like one of your favorite countries or like international stops, you know, that you had in 2025. I genuinely I've been to Australia three years in a row to play shows. Wow. and I've done a headline two years in a row. It is so fun to play there because they treat folk music and like this kind of music like it's basically DJ music. Like they're they are just hyped and having so much fun, and like this is like this is like the greatest day of their lives every time that they hear folk music. And I just I love playing there. It's so fun. Also is that? I don't know.

I I think it's the folk, just they they have a there's been a big folk wave down there. Like lots of Aussie artists are are starting to kind of turn more acoustic and and more folky. And I also have a little bit of like an indie rock hint to my music sometimes. And obviously, like the Aussies are like amazing at you know in indie rock music. Like Royal Otis is one of those bands that's coming up right now. They're from Australia that are just awesome, you know. And I think it just makes like a perfect, it's a perfect mix because you've got people like uh like Noah Kahn who are just gigantic over there, like massive, massive, massive, massive over there. Um I think it it's just it's the kind of music that that they find to be the most like down the middle pop, which is great for me, because I that's that's kind of the lane that I want to live. Right now here, I I think in the US, it's a little bit more production-driven and it's not as folk leaning anymore, but um it still can be. Um also Prague in uh in uh Europe.

Prague is pretty spectacular. Okay. We woke up and it was snowing, and it's just the most beautiful city I've ever been to. Yeah, yeah. I'm just still thinking about a bunch of Aussies like piped up to Matt Hansen's music. Hell yeah, man. You guys gotta go to Australia. It is it is amazing. I want to go. They're just sad as shit, but all they're like crying while just literally that's exactly the vibe. That's exactly. Oh my god, that's amazing. Hope you guys are enjoying the conversation. I want to take a quick moment to tell you about our pals at DistroKid. You can't get your music onto streaming platforms without a distributor, and DistroKid is an excellent choice to handle that for you. For the ridiculously low price of $23, you can upload unlimited music for an entire year that is less than $2 a month. I tripped on $2 walking down the street earlier. They have countless features to help you out on your musical journey. One of my favorites is splits. Instead of my collaborators hitting me up all the time saying, Where's my fucking money? I can input everyone's percentage when I upload the music, and DistroKid will handle it. I've personally used DistroKid for many years and can genuinely recommend them as a great tool to get your music out into the world.

And if you sign up at OMTDistro.com, you'll get 30 percent off an already insanely low price. This is absolute peanuts for unlimited uploads yearly. We wish you the best with your creating. Let's get back to it. You know, so obviously you saw a lot of success uh doing covers, right? On social media. And I feel like, man, we've had some very conflicting opinions on like definitely heard that like I don't want to be a cover artist or box into that lane. I mean, even Nic D, who's obviously built an incredible, you know, artist as a, you know, independently, uh, you know, artists create independently, he basically gave Connor Price the advice of like, bro, stop doing covers and remixes, like only post your original music. Like you're never gonna be able to, you know, transition to your original music, you'll be stuck as a cover artist, whatever. I mean, do you think that covers is a you know viable strategy for an artist to grow on social media still effectively? Or how do you feel about it now?

Because obviously you did this like a few years ago, but like we're in 2026 now. Do you think it can still work the way you worked it, or where are we at? I think it depends on what kind of artists you are, because my entire thing is my voice. That's like kind of the point of a lot of my music is like showcasing that part of my artist project. Yeah. And I think that um, unless you are like just an unbelievable songwriter and you are great at songwriting off the bat, which I don't think anybody is, you should start with covers and see if people like your voice, right? Because if you want your voice to be the focal point of the project, you should, you know, showcase that. Show people what you can do with with a song that's already big and more people will listen at the beginning. I totally think that you have to get off it though. And you have to get off it pretty fast. Otherwise, you are pigeonholed as a cover artist. It took me a good, I would say, year of covers to get to a point where I felt comfortable teasing my original music for the first time. And it took a second for it to catch on with other people.

And it took a second for people to stop requesting songs in my comments, right? Like they're like, do someone you love by Lewis Capaldi. And I'm like, I did that one like six months ago. Like that's that's the level where you're still not a real artist to them yet. They're just the cover, you're the cover person, you know. And now I can say for the past two years, I haven't gotten one of those comments in in like literally two years. Like I haven't gotten one of those. It's like, I want that song that you teased last month. Like that's the level. And so you have to phase it out. I think that it depends on what kind of artists you are at the beginning, though, because it's a lot more difficult to tease your original music and know whether this is the right path yet if you, you know, don't have any followers yet. It's it's it's tough to get that stuff off the ground unless you're just a spectacular, spectacular singer and you're a spectacular songwriter. And at the end of the day, you're gonna have to be to get to any kind of point, you know. But you want to give yourself a little bit of grace and a little bit of time to learn and write more.

Um, and so I think covers is like a good incubation period of just figuring out, oh, these people really like when I write, you know, these ballad songs. So why don't I try and, you know, or when I sing these these covers of these ballad songs, why don't I try and write a ballad? You know? Let me let me see what I can do with this. And I think that's important, like, especially as a vocalist. But if you're a rapper, if you're uh, you know, a folk singer, songwriter, and your thing is songwriting, put out your songs to your songs. I think that's the best way to do it. But I love that. I never consider like depends on what you know, what is the goal? If it's your voice, like Matt has very unique tones, you know, and can do lots of cool things. So cover kind of makes more sense for him. Yeah, but I think even on like the rapper and or songwriter tip, right? It's like if you if your lyrics are really strong out the gate, I still think it's still like an algorithmic cheat code though, bro, to leverage something that's popular, right? I mean, if you're just you don't have anything going on, you need to be trying everything anyway. Well, Facts, that's 100 percent it. You need to be trying, yeah. but it's more like so.

Maybe you don't go the cover route, but maybe you do like if I was featured on Lewis Capaldi's you know, uh song, right? So that you're kind of playing into like their psych psychology of like recognizing Lewis Capaldi, something they can grab onto initially and be comfortable with, but then here's what I do. Here's what I wrote, because again, if we're if we are wanting to showcase like our lyric, you know, abilities, uh, you know, whether you're a songwriter or a rapper or whatever. But yeah, man, I don't know. I just thought it was interesting because it's like Nic D straight up, like told Connor Price, like, stop doing this immediately, like you're never gonna end. but to your point, I mean, I think I think you kind of knew that you'd have to transition. How How reluctant were people though? I mean, you mentioned people were like still in your comment section, like did people like immediately latch on to the original music though, or was it still kind of like an uphill battle for you? I think it was, I think people still definitely like latched onto it pretty quickly. So it was it was very successful. It just wasn't like an immediate like this guy is on the scene, he's gonna hit, you know.

Like I I didn't even really have that many labels reaching out um at that point that I released like my first song. I had had them reach out before um when I had first been making the covers and they wanted to basically just lowball me and sign me into like a horrible deal um to like develop me. And I was like, I don't really want to be developed, I'll I'll develop on my own. I'm fine. Um and so but eventually I I I just got I I was writing every day, basically, and I got better and better, and I was getting better and better songs, and so I just kept teasing them. Like I just kept putting them out. And eventually, like it was actually it was only my fifth song that uh when I put out Let Them Go, which is still my number one song. I just remember like when I wrote that song, I, I was only like maybe a year into putting out music. And when I put that song out, I I was just shocked by like the reaction. It was bigger than any kind of cover video and any reaction I've ever gotten from a cover.

People were like, I need this song, like I need this song now. And that was like the clear turning point of when everything switched from like Matt's just this cover voice, let me ask him to do this. And then it was like, I need another let them go. Give me another one of those, like, give me another song, give me another one. And ever since that point, I feel like the the cover comments just completely dwindled. And so I think rather than you know, you needing to turn their attention immediately, I think you just need a good enough song. You need a good enough song to make them realize that they actually want your songs rather than someone else's songs from you. They want you your project, you know. The question is, would you do it the same way now? Now if you went back, yeah. 100% I would. Yeah. No regrets. Yeah, I have I have zero regrets. I mean, obviously, I'm I'm saying that, you know, I'm pretty happy with where I'm at. So I definitely wouldn't want to change anything. It worked, out. but um I think that like I was trying everything a hundred percent, and I wasn't like kind of slightly dipping my toe in anywhere, like being like, oh, like I don't know if I want to do that.

It was just like, I know I want to put these songs out. And at first they weren't quite hitting with everybody, and then eventually I just had this one that just crushed, and people were like, I need this song, I relate to it so heavy. I'm so happy that you wrote this song. And then I started getting the whole, like, all the comments about like, your music is helping me through this, your music helped me do this, your music helped me do this. And I had five songs out, and that's when you understand, like, this is what I'm meant to do, rather than you know, make covers because covers are great, they're awesome. A cover is maybe gonna give somebody goosebumps and make them think about the way that that song feels to them, but it's still not gonna be quite the original, you know. But when you write that song and when you make those lyrics that make someone feel that way, that's the most like uh amazing thing that you can do as an artist. Like that's that's your prerogative. You're the one creating that, you know. So. Yep. Yeah. So obviously the covers was one thing that clearly crushed for you on social media, but even now releasing your own music, you've definitely like cracked the code, I feel like, when it comes to just you know, using social media to convert people into actual like listeners of your music and then into actual fans that you know support you buying tickets and so on and so forth. What are some other formats, right?

Just let's talk maybe in general sense of the word. Like, what are some other formats that you've seen work to convert people with your original music? Like just social media formats. I mean, I think that the one thing that I've been focusing on lately with TikTok and with Instagram is giving people more of a story to watch uh while I'm teasing the song, basically giving them a small music video while I'm teasing the song, giving them a piece of like a like a view into my mind of how I think about the song. And I've seen that working really, really well. Um, because I feel like there are a lot of people that are like they they put the phone up and they're like, listen to my song, listen to what I just made. And there's so many people that do that. And unless that song is a banger, man, unless it is just like perfect and amazing song, that video is probably not gonna do that well because people know they're being marketed to, right? And they're aware of that, and they don't want to be marketed to, they just want to listen to new music. So I've been really focusing on telling a story while teasing the song as well, so that it doesn't feel like I'm just like asking them to pre-save or asking them to wait, but I want to let them digest it before they get the whole song and like think about what how this might feel to them.

And then when they get the whole song, they have more of the story and they're ready to like fully dive into this world because they already kind of know where I'm where I'm headed with it. And so that's kind of been where my head's at around content and and teasing. I I think it's important to give a little bit extra right now. Yeah, for sure. I I love the um the videos with like there's like something happening with a couple, you know. Basically, you're just like there, you're like in this scene, but like they don't know you're there, clearly, but you're just like performing your song, and something that's relatable to the lyrics, obviously, right, is like happening around you, but you're just in there singing your ass off, you know. So I think that's a really, really amazing uh way to look at it. And I think a lot of artists can replicate that is like you know, create this world like that you just kind of live in performing your song, but then maybe there's shit happening that's again like in line with whatever vibe you're trying to curate, right? So yours is about relationships and like the like struggles of being in a relationship and what that comes with, right?

So that's why you have a couple that's represented. But if your music's supposed to be like pipe up, you know, party shit, there should probably be be probably be a party happening like behind you, and you're just like performing your song, right? So I think exactly that you know, I hate the word fucking world building, but it's like yeah, but it's that's exactly what it is. That's what it's like. But it really is like what we're doing here, you know what I mean? Totally. Um how do you think about um like performative, you know, you're doing the song content versus like personality content? That's a big one that people struggle with. So I've always had a difficult time um like doing the personality content thing. I think that a lot of like the ways that a lot of that most people do personality content is like being relatable and like being funny and silly, and that's their that's the whole vibe. And that's just not how I am online. I don't really I've never used social media that way. Like when I was before music, I like never posted on social media. Like I literally just don't use it, really.

Um so that's always been hard for me. So what I try to do is with every song, I give them a little bit more of who I am and a little bit more of like the deep parts of my story, and especially when I'm playing live shows, I really talk with the audience. Like I let them know who I am and I let them know what I'm thinking, and all of those things. And I think for me, that's only deepened my connection with my fans because I'm not like over sharing, and like it doesn't come across as like, look at me. Like, look, I'm going to get my coffee today because that's not what I do. Like, that's not that's not who I actually am. Like, it would be performative if I was doing that, you know. And so I've just found like the best way for me to emotionally connect with these people is to talk about feelings and my songs and emotions and music and nature and things that I really love in a normal way that I would talk to a friend about it rather than you know posting it on my story and being like, you know, going to this place today, like going to the gym, I'm like nobody cares, you know, nobody's that locked into my life. So um I I try to keep it to just music, and I try to keep it to like just letting people exist in this world as like a nice safe space to let off some steam, you know, have fun, you know, think about your ex if you want to do whatever you want, you know.

It's like this is your space to do it, and that's basically like all that I stand for. I do I try to be as as honest and open um as I can with people and not try and like you know add on any fluff to who I am because I've I I just am not an influencer, I really am not, and and I don't want to try and force it upon people. I feel like they just they don't seem to want it. Made a lot of people very happy to hear that that you are a success story that doesn't lean into personality content. If that's you, and you're so excited to hear that, you can post content that focuses on the music. Go ahead and like the video, drop a comment. There we go. Subscribe to the channel because we are bringing you banger all week after week. I was like, where's this guy going? He's cooking. And he's going with the like, comment, and subscribe. I love it. I got it. I love it. But no, but I do want to like be real about what he just said, though, at least my interpretation of what he just said. Why I think it works for Matt, right? And why it's maybe not working for some of you that don't want to show your personality, is maybe take a look at the music. He is, he's showing who he is because he's fucking locked in with the songwriting, bro.

Like he these emotions and the shit that he's pouring, like his soul into these songs, like that's why it's like people think they know him already without him having to show them that he's getting a fucking matcha or whatever. You know what I mean? Um exactly, exactly. Yeah, so I just think like that might not work for everybody. It might not work. No, no. But it's almost like it should be a challenge, bro. Cause like it should hypothetically be able to work, right? Like, if you're a street artist, take like a belly gang uh you know, yeah, exactly, from here in Atlanta. Like, I feel like I know he's not fucking camera up, like influencer, you know, talking head type content, like vlog, showing him your day or whatever. But bro, like the street shit that he's talking about as a street artist, like you know what the fuck this guy's about. Like, you don't need him to you don't need him to put his phone up and like so. I just think there's kind of levels to this shit. And again, if he wanted to show more day in the life of belly gang, and if Matt wanted to show more day in the life of Matt and him do that type of content, I think it would, I think it would not hurt his cause. I don't know that it would hurt, but it's like where he's at, right?

Then we don't have to do it, right? I mean, no one has to do anything, but it's like then you better damn well make sure that the songs are like explicitly obvious. Like you have to be moving people enough to latch on to something. Somewhere there has to be if it's not a if there's nothing there, you're just not gonna be able to go deep. I think I think so. Totally. Um, so you know, even more specific, then right, because you kind of mentioned where you're at, like generally speaking, with with content and kind of you know, um, showing like mini music videos and storylines within each piece. But I do feel like you're a you're an on-screen title text, like god, bro. I feel like you've really you've really like locked in and you're dialed in when it comes to like the hook on screen text that I think really makes your shit highly shareable, right? You've cracked some of those codes, like break down some of the things that you've learned through trial and error posting a ton. Um when it comes to specifically, I'm talking about those on-screen like hook title texts that you're using.

I think so. There are a couple things. I mean, this is I love talking about this stuff. This is like I I think about this every day. So there it shows, man. Yeah, there are a lot of ways that TikTok works and Instagram works and people's brains work when they like are listening to things for the first time. And I think that luckily, my voice, like a lot of the choruses, I'm belting and they're pretty loud. And it and it kind of gets up to this big moment, right? And so I always make sure to have around three or four seconds before that moment happens so that you don't just have like you swipe and it's just like someone yelling, right? Because someone's gonna swipe away so fast. They're gonna be like, nope, nope, can't do that right now, right? Can't do it. But if they swipe and they see like, if you dated a narcissist, this is for you, they'll be like, you know, I think I dated a narcissist. And then they watch and they're like, I'm ready for this moment now. And I'm and I'm and I'm and I totally like feel like I'm gonna relate to this. And right away, they already, just with the text that you that you have up there, they already relate. Because they're there, you know, and they're listening.

Because after that text bubble, if someone is like, Yeah, I don't care, like, I don't care. Maybe I am the narcissist, you know, and I'll swipe away. Whatever. And you timed it where uh just about when they finish reading it, you're now ramping up into the big Now I'm ramping up, and so they're done, they're they're done reading this this small thing, and then right away it's it's chorus, or it's the part of the song that I want to tease that has the best lyric and has the best moment. And those those quotes that we come up with, um, we think about them every single day. Like they are that is like one of the biggest things that me and my manager do is we sit down before we post the video and we're like, what does this song mean? And what do we want people to get from it, right? What kind of people do we want listening to this song? And I think like a a good example was something recent that I had never done before was was Yellowstone, um, holding you the uh the big happy one that I had recently, where I we were just like, you know what? Send this to the love of your life.

And the these videos would get like 250,000 shares. Because these people are just sending it to their, yeah, just sending it to their their husband or their wife or whoever their partner, it doesn't matter. Like they're just sending it to someone, like I saw people being like being like sending this to my dog, like, great, exactly. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Like, that's the kind of vibe that that you have to create at the beginning of the video. You have to create some sense of community where people are like, Yes, I felt that. And then in the comments, everyone's like, Why is he describing my life right now? You know, because I am. I'm literally describing my own life, and I'm describing so many other people's lives because relationships suck, and there's so much weird stuff that goes on with other people that you're just gonna you're bound to have some of these scenarios happen to you. And so finding that relatable line where and it could be so simple it can be like send this to the person that you love the most like that that's how easy it could be if it's a love song, right? And if the song is good and if it has a good moment and if the video looks good, like that thing is gonna take off, it just will.

Um I I want to emphasize that like I I feel like a lot of you guys are like making your videos, it you know, hitting upload on Instagram and then figuring out like what the title text is gonna be. This is a very massively successive independent artist has a million things to worry about. Him and his manager take the time to plan what this text is. This is like the most important thing, He's obsessed with it, and like so important, let's let's think about this stuff, guys. It's so important. Totally. But I think this just goes for all forms of marketing. If you if you don't know who the song is for and like what headspace they should be in when they're listening to it, and what kind of feelings it's gonna like draw out of them, every dollar, every ounce of energy you expend on the marketing is gonna be fucked, man. Like you're not gonna see any return, right? You're gonna be lost, dude. Nothing's gonna hit.

No ROI if you're spending money, no views if you're doing it organically on on social media, bro. So like I think like, yeah, like from the from the title text side of things, like for sure, it's super important. But bro, this is like how are you gonna target someone with Google ads manager if you don't know like what type of person we're trying to trying to reach here, you know what I mean? Exactly. Um, so yeah, I I love that, and I love that I it I thought you spent a lot of time because like, holy shit, like these title, they like these on-screen title texts are dialed the fuck in. I was like, either either like either again, they're hiring some outside agency that's like only focused on on-screen title text format format, or it's even better that it's it's him and his manager just like hey bro, let's let's spend the next 12 hours today. Like, hey, what's on the what's on the calendar today? I've got 12 hours of on-screen title texts. On screen title text, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully, we'll come up with one or two good ones in that amount of time. Um God, that's amazing, man.

Um, any anything that you're seeing uh that's kind of because again, you've you've had a lot of success on social media. Anything else that you're just maybe it's not something that you have really dialed in yet or that you've you know focused on yet, but like shit that you're seeing, because like stuff's constantly changing, and the fact that you've been able to kind of like stay, you know, growing on social media throughout all these like algorithmic, you know, curve balls that have been you know thrown at us, right? Anything you're seeing recently that you've become aware of that you think like others should kind of be, you know, tapped into. I mean, I think one of the best examples of someone who has like just crushed the way that they're marketing everything. I think that uh Sienna Spiro, I don't know if you guys know her, but she is she's spectacular. She's I think she'll be best new artist at the Grammys next year. Um, she has this song called Diamond Hill that is now like the top 10 on today's top hits, and she's just first of all, I mean, to start, she's one of the best vocalists I've ever heard. So that she has that going for her.

But not only that, she has tapped into the emotional like weight that her videos have, and she changes up coloring and it's more moody, and it feels like just legit. Like everything that she's putting out just feels legit. And she's so young and so early in her career. Um, she is signed to a label, and they're doing a great job at supporting that vision, which is amazing. That's what a label can do when they're great, you know. But I think that the main thing to learn from her is just how intentional every post is. And like she's not she's not posting that much. She never was. Like that at every it's like every couple of days. Um, and it's when the song is really good. Like she's not over teasing music, she's letting that time speak for itself and letting her voice speak for itself, letting her song speak for itself, and then every once in a while she'll just put her phone up in her room and sing something just to the camera, and everyone's like, Holy lord, you are insane. Like you you're so good, right?

And I think it's that perfect balance of like being relatable and then also putting people in this world where I feel like there's almost too much relatability for some people. It's like you don't want to look like a mess if your music is not a mess, right? Like if if your music feels very put together and it feels like very emotionally driven, then don't act like this crazy person online that you aren't, right? There's no person there, there's no reason to do that. There's no reason. And so she's so good at being herself online, and it translates so well through the songs, and um, yeah, I think there's a lot to learn, a lot to learn from her project. I think hell yeah. We haven't said the word self awareness this episode. We typically say it at least five or six times. Throw it up every episode. There you go. Yeah, pan to it. It's permanently. Our editor has it over here in this corner. There we go. You guys know who you are, shit becomes a lot easier. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, we we hear this term a lot, and I feel like we talk about it sometimes too much, but I'm gonna throw it out there. You you definitely, you know, are the CEO of your own business, right? When it comes to the you know, Matt Hanson uh artist business. What kind of advantages uh do you think that you have operating, you know, on a global scale as an indie artist, right? Versus maybe some disadvantages that you have operating at a global scale as an indie artist compared to if you were assigned to a major, for example. Like talk us through like the blessings and the curses, right? Of this global indie scale that you're on. I mean, the the first thing is that like you have the freedom to do whatever you decide. Like there's there's basically no limits on what you can do. The only limit you have is the money you have. Um so that's that's about it. There are a lot of downsides, and I think that there's a reason why a lot of people are not indie, because it's hard, it's it's very difficult, and it's a lot more work. And you're never really like when you're on tour, you're the one, you know, running your social media, and you're the one doing all this stuff, and you're the one, you know, talking with a lot of the promoters and like figuring that stuff out too.

And so there's there's a lot of extra steps, like all of these shoots that I'm doing, like it's me and my photographer and my manager just think tanking, like, what are we doing for this? Like, there's nobody else that's adding to that that idea. Like, we're making that. And then now I'm I'm like lucky enough where I have my photographer on full time as my creative director, and he will book the book these people for me. So, like he will go out and reach out to the director of photography and the director and the gaffers and rent all the equipment and things like that. And I'm at a point where I can where I can, you know, outsource that to him and let him do that. But at the beginning, it was all, you know, it was all me. It was like I'm the one that's got to get everyone to this place to shoot this. It's me and my manager basically running this whole thing. And it's intense, and you know, it's it's exhausting. But at a certain point, you basically just become your own label, and then you can start hiring people, and it's pretty great. Like I get to also hand pick my team.

Like every person that works with me and for me, they're like my homies. I love these people. Like they're amazing, and I want to be around them all the time. And they have the same kind of work ethic that I have. And it's not like I've got, you know, this person at you know, Capitol Records that's just slacking off and like isn't getting us something for the creative, right? It's this person who lives and breathes this project. That's all they do. And that that's their I could just go on and on and on about the benefits that I've experienced, but you you have to be willing to give up a lot of that time. Um, and a lot of the like feeling of being this famous artist, because in reality, you're just a dude or you're just a girl, you're just someone, right? You're just some random person. And yeah, you're gonna see how much those first class flights cost. You're gonna see how much the black cars cost. You're gonna see all of that, and you're gonna not want to do it most of the time because it's so expensive. Right.

And so, like, you're the one seeing the money coming in and out, and it's a it's a blessing in a lot of ways. But I know a lot of people that just like they like the fact that the label just takes care of it, and that's fine. If if if that's the that's what you want to do, do that. I think it's a very easy way to live. And to be a Coddled artist is awesome. Like it's a great feeling. But then maybe you wake up 10 years later and you're broke again. You know, you don't have this, you don't have anything anymore. Your career's over, and all of a sudden all your masters are gone, right? You don't have any equity in anything. The label has everything. And then you know, you're you're asking a more difficult question. You know, it's like, what do I do after this? And I don't ever want to be asking that question. I want to keep doing this for the rest of my life. And so that's really important to me. That was amazing. And bro, I never thought about um, I really never thought about the whole like handpicking your team uh aspect of it because it's not wrong, bro. It's like you signed a fucking Capitol, Columbia, RCA, whatever.

Here's your marketing person. Here's your, you know, you know, your digital, here's your radio, here's your this. If those people suck, you don't get to just like change them out. Like, no, I mean, you might be able to like kick and scream if you're like a priority artist. I don't know, but it's like you're a newly signed artist, like fuck off. You get those people You're working with Jeff, whether you like Jeff or not. You get what you get. Jeff is Jeff is your guy. Yeah. Jeff and digital is your guy. Yeah. Man, and even if Jeff sucks, it's like, yeah. So that that's I I love that you've been able to, you know, kind of build out that team. How did you find? Because a big, a big thing that like indie artists, you know, love to use as an excuse is like they don't know how to find team members, right? So, like, yeah, I I know it's a lot easier when you have you know things moving, right? When you got some motion and you know, people want to be a part of something that's that's winning, right? But even earlier on, like, how did you find people to join the team? I think I mean the first step for anyone is you need a really good manager.

You need you need a manager that's really gonna believe in you, and also a manager that has some level of power in the industry. Because if you don't have that, you're kind of just swimming upstream. Like it's it's pretty difficult. And then also, I mean, it's exactly what you said. You need to have something going to get those people to want to join you, right? They're not just gonna join in at zero, unfortunately, which is that's just how the industry works. That's how anything works. That's how a job interview works, right? They're not gonna hire someone that has zero experience and has no idea what they're doing and has no proof of ever knowing what they're doing, right? So you have to prove to people that you know what you're doing, and you have to start posting and have the followers and have people wanting, you know, wanting your music and wanting you in in general. But manager is is the most important part. And if you have a good manager, everything else will kind of fall into place. Also, I would say a lot of people say lawyer first, too. I think that that's also a great way to start as well, because you need to stay protected. But at the beginning, you're not gonna get the best lawyers.

You're gonna probably get some people that are not as good and don't really know what they're doing or have no power in that scenario, and you're gonna get screwed a lot because the music industry is full of a bunch of horrible people, you know, who just love to take advantage. Because there's no money in it. There's really no money anywhere. Like people think that there's money, but labels take all of it. So if you're on the other sides of this, like you're just getting screwed. Like that you're you're fighting over a small percentage of things. And if you're the small artist that has a bad lawyer, you're just gonna get steamrolled. And there's nothing you can do about it, you know? What do you like? What are you gonna do? Hire a super expensive attorney, you don't have the money, right? And so um, yeah, I think at at the start, the first thing you really need to focus on is you have to build up your own thing so that these people that you want to work with and that really are actually gonna believe in you and actually have something to say and actually have power and actually have a way to help you, they want to work with you, right? So that's what happened with me with the covers.

I I gained a lot of followers really fast with the covers, and I did like 30 or 40 manager meetings. Like I was meeting with every manager that existed, and I I took it, I took every meeting so seriously. I didn't care who they were, you know, who else they were managing. I was like, I mean, that obviously does matter, but I think that it's like, do they have the power that I need, right? And do they are is it clear that they're like obsessed with this project? Because if they're not, I'm gonna get shelved and they're not gonna care. It's easier said than done, obviously, but that's that's the first step that you have to take in order to get to that, you know, to that point where you can start building out your team like that, you know. Yeah, so so what kind of power in the industry were you looking for in a manager? Just so everyone's kind of clear, like what should they be able to do for you in your mind? I think the first thing is they they should have uh like people should know who they are and and in the industry. Um that's pretty important.

Um that they have that their name is known. Um, and it's pretty clear uh when they're lying or not. If they can get you in to meeting uh, you know, certain labels and things like that, or get you into certain rooms with certain producers, that's a really good sign. That's a very, very, very good sign. Um they should be able to do that if you want to do that, right? Um and I was really focused on that because my main thing was I was like, I want to write the best songs that I can. So I need access to these to these writers and producers that are signed to labels and signed to publishers, and I need you to have those connections because I don't have them at all. Right. I've met a lot of managers. There are a lot of managers that do have that. Um, you need to figure out which one has the right ones for you, you know? Because if my manager managed Lil Baby, that's great, but he's not gonna do anything for me. Like, I'm not gonna open for Lil Baby on tour. Like, that's never happening, right? I don't know. Matt Hanson, Lil Baby. That'd be wild. That'd be a good idea. Lil Baby. Fire. Hey, man, we know some people that know Lil Baby. We're here in Atlanta. We can hook you up, Matt. Hey, let's go. Let's go. That'd be so fun. But but that's the kind of connection where, like, that's

like that's a great connection, right? But it's not quite the connection that I need. Like, I need someone that's gonna be there. Yes. Yeah. Like it's a little bit more tailored taste, you know? Um so, and that that mainly comes from you just taking a lot of meetings. Like you gotta figure out who are the bullshitters and who are legit, you know, because there are a lot of sleazy managers and sleazy people that'll just take all your money and dip and they don't care. Yeah, you know. I love the 30 to 40 just figure in general. I think a lot of people are like, oh my God, someone's offering to manage me. Like sold, yes, yes. No, but you've got to be the one. I want to manage you. Yeah, sold. No, but I but I also love what you said about you know, being super passionate about the project. Yes. Right. Because for me, man, like I don't know. I go back and forth when people are asking me like thoughts about this manager or that manager, right? Because having cred in the industry, like for sure, but I mean, almost damn near more important in my mind, bro, is the like passion and excitement that they're that they're gonna have for like Matt and and Matt as the artist and Matt's music, and like Are you gonna wake up and want to do this shit? Yeah, exactly.

And like, and and when you and when they do finally get whatever meetings they're trying to set up, like are they can they speak honestly about how fucking jazz they are to get whoever they're talking to that jazz about Matt to do whatever it is that Matt needs to you know to get done. I think that is more important almost I think it's damn near more important, bro. It's special to get someone to deeply passionately care about something that's such a special resource especially because you kind of threw me for a curveball with like the getting you in the rooms with the right producers and shit because that is important even as an indie but like the label meetings bro as far as like label meetings if you're trying to stay indie like fuck all that who cares if he can get you actually I have I have I have one thing to say about that and that's okay let's go why you kind of have to play the game also with that kind of stuff okay they gatekeep their producers and songwriters. So all of the best producers and songwriters are in some way affiliated with these major labels. Yeah and the only way as an indie artist that you're gonna get in the room with these people is if they want to sign you at some point.

And then if you are a good person and a good writer and people like working with you they'll work with you no matter what you can just text them right you have these you have these people in your phone like there are many producers that I met because a label set us up together and now I work with them all the time label doesn't even we don't talk anymore you know I have no communication right but me and the producer do because they are actually producers love working with like indie artists that that make money because I pay them way more than a label I give them a higher percentage like all of those things, it's way better to work with someone who's indie who streams well, right? Um take the meetings. Exactly. So take the meetings, take the meetings, be there, be present, don't act like an asshole and be like, I don't need you, because that's not a good way to do it. And I I never, you know, was that way with these people, and I still do, I still foresee a time in my life where I will want a label, you know. It's hard doing all this stuff by myself, and it's exhausting.

And when I want to go to radio, I can't do that really right now. I'd have to pay a ton of money to make that happen, you know. Yeah. Um, and so there are a lot of things that they gatekeep, and one of them is, you know, writing. And fire writers and then fire producers, and they're really good. Like people don't realize how good these people are. Like, I, I write with very good writers all the time. And I myself can write on my own. I've done that. I have a lot of songs that I put out that are me alone. But the difference is that when you get that writer that is like just like the next level, someone like uh I don't know if you guys are into any um songwriters, but like someone like an Amy Allen, she's one of the best songwriter. Yeah, if you get in the room with her, I I I never have. That's a that's a difficult session to get. But if if you get in the room with her, you understand like why she has so many hits. She's so good at writing and getting you to be a better writer yourself. It's like those people in in any room where they just make you better, right?

That's the kind of people that they're gatekeeping. And so I think that it is really important to play that game and to be, you know, uh like willing to take the meetings still, not be like, you know, fuck the industry, whatever. Like, I don't care, I'm doing this on my own. Like, you can think that and you can take that road, but you still have to play the game. You you you always have to play the game because they still control everything, you know. And I'm I'm trying to take away that control, you know, but at the end of the day, it's I'm one person, you know, against a conglomerate that's worth like trillions of dollars. So there's not much that I can do. I would want to know what kind of offers I'm getting too to just know like what my leverage is sitting and where like, you know, it's like a valuation almost. Like exactly. I mean, I I would say they they lowball you a lot, but sure. it's it is important to get those and and for and to figure out like what kind of interest is there in my project, you know, right? Yeah.

So Henry, you know, he he mentions these labels are gatekeeping, these fire songwriters. You know who's not gatekeeping the fire songwriters? Who's that? The One More Time podcast. We've interviewed T Ron Thomas. I'll link the fucking episode. We've interviewed Sean Garrett, the pen, top 25 songwriter of the 21st century. Yes. So the One More Time Podcast isn't out here gatekeeping songwriters. bro. We'll put links to those episodes right up here. Hell yeah. I love it. So I I do want to talk about, you know, obviously uh your debut album coming up. Um and I think it's important because, you know, being an independent artist, there's been a lot of um artists who have seen a ton of success just going like single, single, single, single, single, right? You look at like a Nic D and a Connor Price. Like I think Connor Price just dropped his debut album recently, right? Um, so there's a huge focus on singles. So I want to just talk first about like how did you know it was time to release a debut album, right? Like what what kind of metrics were you looking at to determine if there was demand for it, right?

Like did you just feel the creative urge to do it? Like walk us through the thought process of of why debut album now at this juncture. You know, I think that I have been wanting to put out an album for like the last year and a half, basically. Um, and I had been saying it in my head. I was like, it's coming out this year, that was in 2025, and then I was like, you know what, it's it's been too long. Um, and I have stopped like the stories that I'm telling now are the end of of this chapter of my life. And I think in a lot of ways, I think I was waiting for that. I think I was waiting for the close on that on that chapter of my life, and I don't think I had it yet. And I didn't want to like shortchange people and be like, you know what? Here's a just a bunch of songs that I wrote that have no meaning, like together, you know. And now that I've written a couple of those final little puzzle pieces of the of the album, it it like it it just became so clear to me um how I wanted this album to sound, what I wanted it to mean, like how like the track listing was so easy for me because I just knew like the storyline, and it's literally the story of my life the last four years. Like it is to a T, just the emotions that I've gone through over the last four years.

And you know, healing from traumatic shit. Like, that's I feel like everybody can relate to the that that healing process and finding some hope at the end. And so that was that was the the real like trigger for me to to, you know, here we go, it's album time. And Orchid was a song that I had written about two years ago. And when I wrote the song, I was like, this is the name of my album. I I I know it's called Orchid. And I was just waiting. Like how to do it. Because it's it's the most, I would say, vulnerable and real song that I've ever written. And I I I just felt like it it explained the how I wanted to feel about love and how I wanted to feel about hope and how I wanted to let go and things like that. It just explained it so well. And it was simple. I wasn't trying to, it wasn't trying to be um too complicated and and and say too much in that song. And I think that the metaphor is just so perfect too. I I talk about an orchid and um how orchids are you know very easy to keep alive if you keep them in the right conditions with the right water and in the in the right light, you know. And it's very similar with love.

You can make it last forever with the right care and attention and and and hope and all of those things. And if you don't take care of it, it can die very fast. Um yeah, I I just I that that song means so much to me. And when I was coming up with this, this entire theme for this album, Orchid was just the perfect, you know, place to bring every song to. So yeah. So so did you write, like was every song on the album basically like written specifically for the album, right? Or did you have a collection of songs that you then started to kind of like sequence and pick from? Like, how do we land on the the track list? Yeah, um, that that we're gonna hear on Orchid. Well, there are a lot of songs that are already out um that like like let them go and and something to remember that were like keystone songs for me, not only in my career, but in my emotional life and my like journey as a human being. And so there are a lot of like songs like that that just means so much to me that I couldn't not put them on on this album.

Like it would make no sense for me to not have these songs, you know, on there. And so there are those, and then these recent songs that I've been putting out, where we're doing a normal-ish album rollout where I do three singles before, you know, the album comes out. Um, but they're all very intentional for the first time. I think that they they all share a new side of this story that I've never shared. And they're not particularly in sequence with how I'm feeling at the moment, but they're in sequence with how I want people to view this story going into this album and like getting them into that headspace. Um, cause it's like some of these songs I put out like three years ago, you know, so it's it's been a while, and I think it's it's these newer songs are meant to remind people of of those those spaces that I was because this is a long story and it's a long journey. And yeah, there are there are a lot of new ones that will be on the album too, though. So it's it's a good mix. It's a good mix. So from like a business perspective, right? Like commercially, what what opportunities does an album present for an artist?

I mean, I think there's this one thing that uh Jack Antonoff said in this interview. He said that singles are um a hallway and a an album is is is the door to walk through. And I think that that's so true. Like it's it's so so true because you can love an artist and love their music, but until you understand like the actual room that you're going into and the actual world that you're going into, I think that it's it's a little bit hard to make that for yourself. And I've done a pretty good job, I would say, at creating that world with just doing singles because that they each feel like their own moment. Um it's not like I'm throwing things away, you know, they're all emotionally charged. But this album for me basically wraps up this entire first stage of my career in such a like succinct way and and emotional way that I feel like the tour will make a lot more sense to people too. And the world that they're stepping into when they come to see the show, they're like, I know what I'm about to experience, you know, I and I'm ready.

I'm like ready to have that experience. I'm excited. So it's it's mainly a world building thing. There you go. World building. Back to the world building. World building. Yeah. Can't go a whole episode without saying content or world building. And self-awareness. Yeah, it's self-awareness. Yeah, for sure. Um, is there any song that you wrote specifically uh with the live show in mind? Yeah, there's a song called Whirlwind that I love. It's so much fun. It's like a fun little shuffle vibe. Like, you know, um uh Ring Me In by uh by Sam Fender and Olivia Dean. Do you know that song by chance? Yeah, okay. It's it's it's in that realm. It's so fun. It's just a dance song. It is so fun um to play, and I can't wait for people to hear it too. It's just a just a good vibe. So that's one that I wrote like specifically for live. I I think that my show is lacking a couple of those like light, you know, moments of levity and and and and moments of hope. And I I wanted there to be more of those.

So let them wipe the tear. Let them wipe the tears. Yeah. While they're yeah, while they're dancing. You could do uh you could do like custom like handkerchiefs for people to wipe tears. That'd be a fire merchant. that's a great idea. Damn. we'll take a you know, royalty. Well, I don't know, what's fair? Fire. Absolutely. I came up with it, you can have that one. There you go. Sell yourself short. Um how do you specifically like to approach songwriting typically? Is there like a usual, you know, way that you do you write an idea first? Do you get you know music from one of your producers first? Is it all happening simultaneously? Like, is that is there kind of like a usual uh method that you like to use? Yeah, I'm really inspired by sound. Like, that's where I start almost always. Sound, melody, anything like that. And normally the lyric comes from how that sound is making me feel. So I will be, I'll I always start in the room with my producers and maybe one other writer, and either I'll play something or they will, or we'll just start with a vibe. Like it'll be like, how does this specific vibe make us feel?

And I almost never start with drums because most of the songs that I've written actually, we started writing them at a different tempo and then changed it. And so there's no point in making those drums because it's a completely different, you know, BPM. So we'll just start acoustic and I'll play on the guitar, I'll play on the piano. And I've noticed that if I write the song on the piano and I think it's fantastic, it's gonna sound fantastic produced also because it's a good song, right? And so as a songwriter, I try and focus on that piece first and how these chords are making me feel, and if the lyrics are right, and if you know, this line is is weird enough to describe what I'm trying to say, because sometimes I'm trying to describe a very abstract feeling. And like sometimes you have to say something a little bit odd and go outside of the box of what you normally would say in a song, right? Like you don't need to rhyme, you know, like heart five times, right? Let's let's find something different, you know? But I'm I'm very, very inspired by sound, and so I'll I'll normally start with sound and melody, and then from there go with I'll just kind of start saying words as I'm singing. Um it's kind of like the John Mayer method where he like he's not freestyling per se, but he has a melody in mind and he's saying things, and he's piecing together what he wants to say by that, you know, word vomit, basically.

So that's dope, man. Well, I am super excited about the uh project. We may or may not have gotten to get a little sneak peek of it. Hell yeah. Incredible. Uh Matt, we've entered a final segment of the podcast. Oh, shit. Is it time? Let's go, Henry. It's a time for the best part. Stop Sleeping on the job. You have to have two jobs. Matt, this is the rapid fire rampage. Rapid fire rampage. All right. That's correct. There are three parts to it. I'll explain them as we go. Nice and easy. But the idea here is speed. There are no correct answers. But the first part is just some short answers. Let's get into it. No dude. Kind of get real deep here off the rip. How's the weather in LA? Beautiful. Unreal. Unreal. As always. Isn't it? Yeah. classic? It got cold again here in Atlanta. You were right, bro. I told you. I woke up this morning. We had fake spring at 80 degrees. And now it's back to free. Yeah, yeah. So anyway. Matt, if you started your career completely over tomorrow. Okay.

Describe the first steps you would take. Oh, I would I would go back to my cover era and I would start singing some some Lewis Capaldi and some Frank Ocean again. I think that it was so instrumental and starting my career. What is an unexpected lesson you learned putting together your debut album? Um I actually need to let go a little bit more than I thought. Um I tend to white knuckle everything and really try and like hold on to certain creative elements. And sometimes you just have to let the music speak and not try to control it too much. So like less changes, maybe. Yeah. Just let the song exist, you know. I'd like if if that's how you wrote it, that's how you wrote it. Um I think that's important. Yeah. What's an unexpected lesson you learned from the insane amount of touring you did last year? Um, I need to take care of myself because I I tend to uh when I get really stressed, I don't take care of myself as as well. And so health, fitness, uh, the things that I'm eating, the things that I'm drinking, everything like that.

Like I go dead sober on, on on tour now. Um, and I really take care of my health, and it helps everything. Your mental health, your performance, all of it. So and then when tour is over, he's pouring a big one. Oh, it is. It's a full bottle of whiskey when I'm done. Full bottle of whiskey. Love it. Love it. Um, what would you say the main differences between artist Matt and CEO Matt? Oh man, I mean, I feel like they're two different people. Um, artist Matt, Artist Matt cares so much about you know the the creative elements and the the specific sounds and the songs, and I think I've been able to switch into this other version of myself so that I can look at my art from above, basically. Almost Dr. Strange myself away from my body and see like, is this good? Like, is this actually good good art? Um, and I would say it's definitely the emotional attachment. Um, that's the biggest thing.

My creative self has a lot of emotional attachment to everything, and that's great because that's what I should be doing. And when I go outside of that part of myself, I need to let I need to let that go a little bit. I need to be like, is this good? You know, is it? Are you able to switch kind of between the two pretty quickly? Kind of. I need I need someone else there also. Like my manager is is good at leading me towards that other part of myself because in reality I'm really just emotionally attached to everything. So it's it's difficult. It's it's difficult to do that, but I've gotten better at it. Yeah. Has your manager ever been like, nah, Matt? Like, that's not the one? Like he has, But in like nice ways. He'll never like, because to be fair, both of us have been wrong about what song will go. Well, yeah, it will work, right? And so yeah, right. And so like, we never, we've learned to never count a song out, but if it doesn't work multiple times online, it's probably just the song isn't good enough. And so I've learned to give that up.

But yeah, we I've we've had many moments where like I've been like, no, this song is the one, and it just keeps flopping, and I cannot like I it's just not gonna work, Matt. Like it's not gonna work, you know. Ego deflation. Uh pretty brutal. It's pretty brutal, yeah. But that's how it works, you know. So Matt, you've just been appointed supreme leader of the music industry with the power to do absolutely anything. What is your first order of business? Oh my goodness. Uh, first thing is I'm upping uh the amount that you get per stream uh from Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, everything, everything. Second, um, I think I'm giving points to songwriters also. Um, that's really important. Pay your songwriters because they will continue to come back, and labels don't pay songwriters at all. Um, so that's important. And then yeah, I think distributing that wealth equally, I think it's really important, especially because like labels just take basically 99% of the money um that's out there, and they just hold they hold it, you know. Well, and that's for the people. And if he's getting more money per stream, he's got enough shekels to get. Yeah, got enough songwriters. No, that's how

that's how it works, you know. We just gotta pay a hundred bucks a month for Spotify, which I mean I'd be down for. But anyway, um Matt, what is your most controversial music industry opinion? Ooh, um, people love to hate on the people in LA. Um, I said this recently that if you hate the people in LA, you're probably hanging around the wrong people, and that's probably more of a reflection about who you are rather than uh the people in LA. Back at you LA haters. Uh, that's what I'm saying. Is that LA's pretty dope, and creative people are super cool? And I feel like you guys definitely know this too. Like creative people normally are great to hang around. They're super fun, you know? And if you're hanging around the wrong people that have the wrong mindset, um, you're not gonna have a lot of fun, and that's probably because you're bad at discerning the good people from the good one, the good people from the bad ones, you know. So take take a look at yourself in the mirror. Take a look at yourself. Self-awareness. There you go self-awareness once again. Uh-huh.

Last one of the short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Fuck. Part one. Part one. He's doing well. He's doing well. It's only gonna get more rapid from here. Next part is the this or that. I'm gonna give you two choices. You just gotta pick one. Okay. Starting with drums or melodies? Melodies. Studio or stage? Stage. Books or podcasts. Ooh, sorry, guys. Books. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. The audacity people have to come on our show. I'm so sorry. I didn't say books. That was supposed to be a layup. He's asked this one before in Christ. It's insane. It's pretty split. Oh no. Oh no. No, I got I get it. I get it. No, I don't. I don't know. Let's just move on quickly. Tweak and revise or go go go. Go, go, go. TikTok or YouTube? TikTok. TikTok. Love song or heartbreak song. Oh, heartbreak song. Heartbreak song. I'm always gonna lean that way.

Yeah. Window seat or aisle seat. Oh, dude, I've been back and forth lately. Um, to be honest, I think that window just because I love sleeping and I don't like getting up for people going to the bathroom. So I'll I'll just sleep on the on the side. It's pretty great. Yeah. Phone note or pen and paper? I've tried to do pen and paper, but I'm always phone note, unfortunately. I pen and paper, my handwriting is just so bad, so I forget what I wrote. So yeah. That's the issue. If you can't read it, the writer is not going to go to read it. If I can't read it, no one can. The song's lost forever, so I can't do that. I can't do that. Singles or projects? Now projects, yeah. Now projects. Ranch or blue cheese. Ooh, blue cheese. Blue cheese. Win a Grammy or own your masters. Own your masters, man. Own your masters. Most people dislike you, or no one has heard of you. Oh, that's really hard. Um I would say that in my opinion, no one's heard of you because I don't think that you need to be controversial to be great.

Um, and there are a lot of people that like tend to take the controversial route as like a way to gain traction, and I just don't think you need to do that. I think that if you make great music and you're true to whoever you are, like, and you know, maybe yourself is a very hateable person that's like controversial. Do your thing, right? Then like do your thing. But like that's not who I am, so I'm not gonna try and be hated to to gain fans or gain followers. Um, but I would probably rather be unknown. Yeah. Wow. And finally, become a full-time hip hop producer or leave the music industry forever. Oh, I would, I would, I would try to become a a uh hip-hop producer. That'd be fun. Okay. Okay. I feel like I'd be so bad at it, but I it would be fun. You know, everyone's bad at everything. They start when they first start. Yeah, sure, true. Anyway, last part is the word association. Matt, I'm gonna say one word. I just need you to give me the first word that you think of off the top of your head. Okay. Starting with music. Lyrics.

Emotion. Matt. USA. Olympics. Failure. Needed. Content. Needed. Home. Needed, man. Needed. Goddamn. Needed all of it. What's what he doesn't need? Let me see. Let me see. Gen Z. Oh Lord. Uh yikes, Moggs. Platinum. Goal. Hook. Catchy. Red flag. Avoid. Green flag. Run in. Yeah. Opposite of a void. Opposite. I was trying to think. I was like, what? Embrace? Like, I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, I was trying to get a second. Run in. Run in. Run toward delight. Yeah. Only a few more here. Uh, set list. Um, intentional. Label. Meh. Love. Yes. Matt. Hansen. Let's fucking go. This has been Matt Hanson on the one more time podcast. Beautiful. I'm telling you, man, Matt Hanson needs to be one of them like case studies in the indie space, bro. Absolutely. I'm I'm excited to find more gems like this, bro. And like bring artists on that are just crushing independently that not enough people know about, at least in like the artist community. So seriously appreciate you coming on the podcast, man. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. If you Guys found value, like, comment, subscribe. I'm throwing one more of those in there. We got time. Hell yeah. Is the episode over yet? It's over now. Okay.