7x Grammy-Winning Mix Engineer (OutKast, Tyler The Creator, TLC) Neal H. Pogue

You may not know his name, but I guarantee you've heard his work. You're fresh off of four number one albums with Tower the Creator. Yeah, I had to count the other day. That's Neil H. Pogue, the seven-time Grammy winning mix engineer behind OutKast, Tyler the Creator, Pink, Lil Wayne, Stevie Wonder, Janelle Monáe, and so many more. I love working with artists that you don't know what's gonna happen next. For nearly four decades, Neil has been the invisible architect behind Timeless Records. Hey Ya with OutKast, Diamond Certified Waterfalls with TLC, and Tyler the Creator's modern classics, Flower Boy and Igor. People still talk about Igor. They still talk about Flower Boy. We want people to go back to it 20 years later. In this episode, Neil breaks down what makes Tyler the the Creator so special. He doesn't care about what anybody thinks. He does what he feels. How mixing has changed from the 90s to now. His records were all about mixing it on the board. And now we're like, oh, let's just mix it in the box and see what happens. Why mixing with feel always beats technical perfection.

When it comes to me, it's feel. I call myself more of a street mixer because I'm not thinking about little technical things. I don't like rules. And the actual business behind engineering. Do mixed engineers get points on the record at all, ever? Some don't, but I do. I told you. This is a masterclass from one of the most legendary mixed engineers alive. So stick around because Neil H. Pogue is about to take us inside the mix. Inside the mix. You didn't like that? Really? That was funny. Spin up spinning. You're fresh off of four number one albums with Tyler the the Creator. Yeah, I had to count the other day. Yeah, it's four. Seriously, I had to count because it it time just goes by so fast. I had to go, okay, well. It's like, yeah. Yeah, you've been doing this at a high level for four decades, I think, almost. Three decades.

It's um it's creeping up on four decades. That's insane. Come on, bro. Give it up for Neil H. Pogue for that. Holy shit. Come on, guys I know you're watching this alone right now but clap like need a bunch of clap tracks absolutely so what's your origin story with Tyler? My origin story um he was at a point in his I guess his career when he he wanted to be taken a little bit more seriously and have uh have a better sound you know I mean no no shade on whoever worked with with him in the past but you know he called me and I only knew him for the like the shock song sure you know eating the slug and yeah yeah yeah so I was like okay I wonder what this album's gonna be about so I I figure it's gonna be no the the same stuff but then I went to his his office and you know we we sat down he played it for me and I was blown away I was like oh okay it's a serious he was like yeah man I've been following you for a while with the OutKast stuff and all that and I really want to you know be taken seriously and make you know blah blah blah I was like all right cool and five albums later so wow what do you think makes him so special of an artist he doesn't care about what anybody thinks he does what he feels I I think it it's about him first you know he doesn't really think about doing it for the for the audience he does it for himself and I think that's that's the best way to kind of approach things because when when you do it for yourself then it's no excuse you know like you have to take it you have to take that weight and I think that way you can probably sleep at night too and say okay I did it my way I I wasn't trying to chase whom whomever's doing this or doing that just to just to get on or try to get a number one record or try to do that it's it comes from a comes from a genuine place. I think it was like Rick Rubin he said when you the more people you try to serve if you try to serve everyone with your music you end up serving nobody.

Yeah absolutely and you end up feeling like you're chasing something and it's like a it and it goes to no nowhere. It's like falling off a cliff. You know it is wild though because when I heard you know Rick say it similarly right um talking about like the audience should come last when creating I always kind of immediately knee jerk response was like yeah but like you want the audience to fucking like it. So I don't know it's like this weird thing of like that came across as this like I only make it for me and like I don't care if anyone else likes it. That's how like I thought I interpreted it yeah for the first time. It's not like that at all. Yeah and I don't mean to say that Tyler doesn't care he does care but it just makes you it makes you feel better to do it from from a genuine place. You get to live and die by it right it's like you only really have yourself to either like you know feel just good that you gave it like your best shot and like how you feel it's just about anything we talk about. It's like if you're not doing it genuinely and authentically and just true to yourself like this is gonna be a long it's already a long hard journey as a a creative in this space right so it's to try and please someone else and an artist time is really not that long it's real short.

I mean if you think about it I mean an artist the time frame of really uh having hits is probably like a five year span and some people don't even have a five year some people have two yeah so you better do it from from a a a genuine place. Yeah because if if you spend five years doing something chasing it and getting hits and you know that you did it just just because that was the thing then I don't think you're gonna sleep at night I feel like, damn I I shortchanged myself because you know I I just wanted to take the fast route and that doesn't feel feel good yeah and and so you're someone who's worked across like so many different genres with so many talented special artists of like our generation right like is is that whole concept and notion of the audience coming last and really making art for themselves first and foremost is that consistent across yeah me all these acts me personally I I call them like the cool kids like Tyler and and you know Steve Lacey and Fouché and you know the list goes on I I just call them like the cool kids I I love working with artists like that. I I love working with artists that you don't know what's gonna happen next because it's too easy to work for the artists that are already on on top already. Of course Tyler's on top now but still you know whenever we finish an album you don't know yeah it's it might go number one but you don't know what's gonna happen as far as the as far as the longevity of it you know people still talk about Igor they still talk about flower boy yes so that's that's where we're trying trying to get get to not so much oh we're number one and next week you're like okay I'm cool okay I'm I'm satisfied no we want something to you know we want people to go back to it 20 years later you know not just this you know this like okay it was good we got there nah it's it has to be something that you want to go back to 20 years from now 30 years whatever What? I don't care but it's like longevity music.

And so, like when you lock in with an artist for four albums, for example, like with Tyler, are you doing things on the mixed engineering side similarly across all four? Or are you also talking to me about like the differences, right? That you brought to the table to complement whatever Tyler was also trying to achieve. I always tell people, I like the music to speak to me. I like it to, you know, guide me where where you want want to go. You know, it's like with Flower Flower Boy. It was such a to me, it's such a beautiful album. It feels good. And with Igor, we were trying to, I always say trying to bust people over the head. You know, trying to hit that glass ceiling, trying to make people go, what, what is this? You know what I mean? Like I mixed a record like, oh my God. Like I wanted people to go back to the drawing board and go, oh fuck, man. Okay, I'm not mixing at my best. Like I wanted people to feel like, okay, he's kicking my ass right right now.

And it's like, and not in in a very menacing way, but I'm, I'm a very competitive person in where I want to push you. I I don't like rules. Like, I don't want you to say, well, did you mix in the red and did you do this? Yeah, I probably mixed in the red because I didn't care. I I I wanted you to feel that uncomfortable thing. You know, and that's what Igor made people feel uncomfortable. It made them go, man, that those mixes are, and till this day I still hear people say, Man, those Igor mixes, man, it's because that was the that was the goal to make people feel like, oh, damn, he really, he tried to like really confuse me. Because Tyler, you know, broke some rules making the song, so it kind of follows that he might break a couple rules. Yeah, it had that angst to it, you know, the the low end and everything was like I I wanted to match that the the album title. Yeah, you know, and not in an arrogant way, but just in a way sometimes we we have to make people go, oh damn, you know, shit. You know, am I supposed to is it okay to curse or fuck you?

Fuck yeah. Neal. Okay, good. I'm loving it. Yeah we got we got Neal H. Pogue. You can do whatever you want. Yeah. Fuck our sponsors. You know, I know some sometimes you really want to make people go, shit, you know? So and and push them and you know and do certain things that make them just go, okay, I need to go back to the drawing board. Do you know what I mean? And and so how often are you pushing the artists? Right? Because you're talking about pushing. It's a joint venture. It's more it's it's it's a team effort because one thing that Tyler and I do after he's done recording it, he we sit sit down and we listen to the whole thing. And sometimes I I'll take notes of what I'm gonna be doing. I'll listen to it. Sometimes we'll we'll take a car ride or sometimes we'll sit in in the studio and we'll play from top top to bottom. And we do it every time you know what I mean and that's our that's our routine and after we listen to it I'm like okay I know do it this okay oh that one yeah all right yeah that one feels like this and we'll we'll we'll talk about it and I'll tell them where I want to go with it and we'll go back and forth and so it's it's a team effort. Yeah.

Do you have some like production input as well? Like do you hear things where he might change anything no not necessarily it's just usually just the mix. He leaves and he trusts me to do, do the mixes. Cool. Yeah and we'll just take it there. Yeah. So I I probably should have started with this but like for my own knowledge for first and foremost but also for you know everyone else out there So I always caveat it. Like, explain in layman's terms, or like to a fifth grader what the role of a mixed engineer should be in your mind. Mixed engineer is the person that embellishes on the production and you know enhances whatever sounds he is he is given with EQ, with panning, with uh processing, which can be compression or reverb or delay, or just certain things to enhance it. Um volume, it it encompasses all all of that. Yeah, yeah. So the sonics, you know what I mean? Yeah, and and do mixed engineers get points on the record at all, ever?

Um, some do, but uh some don't I bet you do because I told you? I told you, bro. I told you that was the best answer I could have hoped for. He asked me this the other day. He was like, Yeah, I wonder if he like tries to do more production so he could get royalties. I was like, he's Neil H Pogue, he gets royalties for mixing. He literally said, some don't I do. Episode's over, folks. That's all I needed to get. I mean, no, that's incredible. At this point, I think I've I've earned it. I mean, no, I'm sure. Seven time Grammy winner. I think you've fucking earned it. Hello. Wow. No, that's incredible. So, what's your favorite uh of the four Tyler projects? Oh man, I love them all, but I think I always go back to Flower Boy. Really? I thought you were gonna say Igor based on how you were like romanticizing. No, I love Igor, but something about Flower Boy, because I I love where he was going from that first thought and what he was trying to do and what he and what he what he accomplished with that album. You know, what I mean, it was like he went from there to here and he showed that you know, one thing about Tyler, he's such a brilliant guy, man. He's um people think he's just all about this shocking stuff and words and but he's really a brilliant, thoughtful, you know.

I hate to say genius, because genius sometimes I mean you're on the borderline of crazy, but he's he's he's really not that he's he's brilliant. So I I love to say brilliant. So so how much do you interface with the producers on the records? Being that Tyler is a producer and an artist, so he might be unique, yeah. And he is a producer, see, yeah, and I hate to go here, but I have to do this because I'm like the older guy now. But back when when I was coming up, the the producer was producing, it wasn't something you sent in or or phoned in or whatever. Yeah, you don't just email an MP3. Yeah, he's he's there through and through. Like if he has a feature, he tells the feature what he wants, what he's going for, and sometimes he will will write it for for the the feature artist. He okay, just the lyrics I want, this is the melody I want, you know. And if he's working with with a singer, he he may sing it to them. This is what I want. So he's producing, you know. what I mean, do most like A-list huge artists like him that have stood the test of time now, like do most of them have that like producer in them, or is that still unique to Tyler? Or like unique to someone like Tyler.

I think being a producer in that vein is a I think it's an art form that that has been lost. Yeah, how he does it, how my son too does it. It's it's to me, it's it's not done that way, you know, in anymore. People use per producer because they just did a did a beat, but when you produce something, you have to produce a a producer is is a person that has to be responsible for the final product, and a lot of producers aren't. Yeah, and I'm not throwing them under the bus. This I'm just saying what how I came up as far as pr producing, yeah. Yeah like it's extremely different now. Yeah, you know, but the word pr produces is kind of passed out, like yeah. No, it it it definitely is for sure. Um, okay, so what what other cooks are in the kitchen, right? When it comes to mixing on a record. Obviously there's an artist, there's a producer like do you have like label people in your ear, right? Like ARs and such, right?

I just could I don't know just in my head I feel like you're there mixing or like you know you're sending in mixes and you got just so many different opinions. I I I could feel like is that how it is or is that just something I'm like as far as when I mix like as far as getting notes and all that yeah just just when you're working on a record for you know any artist like are there a lot of different opinions floating around on like what needs to be like tweak this tweak that like what do you think about this back in the day the the AR was very heavily in involved and the and the producers were too but I still get notes from I don't get notes from A&Rs really it's more about the producer and the artist. Yeah you know the the artists are more in involved now back when I was coming up the artist wasn't that heavily in involved it was they they trusted the producer but now a lot of my records are finished with the artist and and the producer's not around I don't know if that's the if that's the arrangement that they made with the label and the artist where it's like okay once I'm done you guys take it from there. Are you ever in the studio for the recording of the songs or is it typically just not anymore.

I I only I'm only involved if I'm producing a a record and I'm always involved in in the recording and I I love to record live bands I don't like to record pro programming um I've I've done that long time ago. And you know, it's not really fun to record programming anymore. It's more fun to be involved with you know with the human being with with a live in instrument. Yeah. And do it that that way. Yeah. And so I know this is something you wanted to make sure we touched on. But right. Like analog versus digital or no, no, more so the producer side of Meezy's career, right? Because I know you're you're definitely most known for your mixed engineering for sure. But like, what are some of your favorite highlights of your producer career? Because I know you have had production on you know some big records. Yeah, I do a lot of indie stuff, which is which is great. Oh, really? Yeah, like um, it was a band I really had fun with called uh Busty and the Bass from Montreal. Okay.

Canada. And I flew out there a few few times, got in studio with them. I mean, incredible musicians and singers and all that. So yeah. Um these are like passion projects though. Like you're only producing if it's something you just believe in, you don't care about the numbers. Exactly. It's stuff that you know, somebody calls my manager and says, hey, we let Neil to get involved, and then if I like it, I'll I'll get involved. And if I don't, I'm not just doing it just to be involved. So the guys, you know, maybe just shoot your shot, maybe like some you know, legendary producer, engineer, whoever might, you know, send them some stuff. They might be like, I actually just love this and I want to get involved, you know. Yeah, I mean, at this point in his career, he definitely gets to work on whatever he wants to work on. He doesn't have to work on anything. And you might get some extra emails after this episode. Yeah, yeah. Y'all chill out, like just come respectfully, please. At least like make a nice email, like present it well. At least use ChatGPT to fucking write it or something. Yeah. Um, but no, so what does a good artist-engineer relationship look like versus like maybe a bad one, right? Because I think something I want to make sure our community gets to take away from this is like how can they best work with a mixed engineer?

Because even Henry, who does mixed engineering for you know mainly independent artists, obviously, some sign too, but you have even seen things that like could be there could be better ways at working together. So, you know, what are some things you've seen or noticed on just like the engineer artist relationship side? When I'm working with an artist, you know, I'm I'm there to serve that that artist. And you gotta have gotta have a lot of patience with with an artist, um, especially when they're giving mixed mixed notes, or even when I'm recording them, because it's it's their project, you know. what I mean, so it's it's kind of a given, a give and take thing. And because at the end of the day, once I'm done as a producer or mixer or whatever, they they have to live with it for the rest of their lives, so I can't muscle in and be like, oh no, it's gonna be this way, and that's where it's gonna be. No, it has to be, you know, you sit, sit down, and it's a joint venture, you know. what I mean, you I mean, you're you're you are there to help them, you know, and hopefully they love hopefully they receive my input, you know what I mean, and and um and take it from from there and and make something good.

What's the most like revisions you've had to do on a song? What version did we get to? Oh man, Good question, Henry. I've gotten to uh 20 before for sure. No, that's the good question. If it wasn't me that was doing the revisions, and if it was them, if it was me, if it was them, then it probably got to maybe 15. Okay, maybe. I don't know if I've ever gotten to 20. I'm trying to think. No, I'm working with the wrong artist. No, it's it's cool. No, it's hey, so sometimes it goes that far. Like, because you know, it's not about like, oh damn, mix 17. No, you're like, okay, cool. This is it's the little things that you didn't hear. Yeah. And you're like, oh damn, I ain't even noticed that. And my thing is when like version four, they're like, look, can we turn the vocals up a little bit? And then version 12, they're like, can we turn the vocals down a little bit? Yeah. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, yes. Yeah, but then you find yourself going back to mix two. Right. You just end up with it. Because it's really some sometimes, you know, you have to understand that it's I I call it's nervous time where they're like, okay, we're about to put this single out. So it's gotta be right.

Yeah. So this so it it becomes nitpicky time. Right. And then you end up saying you get to 13 and 14, then like, and then they end up going back to mix four. Yeah, and they're like, What's the demo better than this? Like, what are you? What are you even doing? That's a whole nother thing, trying to match the demo Yeah. You know, and I always tell people, I I tell the young guys who who are coming coming up, when they're listening to their their demo, it's one thing that that's they've been focused on for months. And you have to figure out what that one thing is, because it has nothing to do with the whole mix. It it may be this delay that they've been hearing, it may be this one synth sound that that was so loud. And if your mix has it lower, the whole thing is screwed up. That's right. They don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. And sometimes once I hear a demo that they send it to me, I'm always focused. Okay, that shit is loud. That's what they're focused on. If I don't make that loud, everything else is gonna be gone. So I'll do my thing and I'll make that one thing loud as fuck, because that's where what it was loud. We got to maintain that's what they were focused on. about the demo, and then it's great.

Yeah, you know what I mean? So it's such a craft, man. You really gotta just hone in and it's subjective, it's it really is subjective, objective, it's it's um it's crisis management, it's all that. It really is, and sometimes, oh, let me start mixing, and I have to tell these guys coming up. You gotta focus on what they've been what that thing that they've been listening to, and they don't know. Sometimes artists are not into balance. They're not listening to that little thing over here over there. They're listening to that one thing right here. And that's what and they and they don't notice anything else. You know what I mean? This is the big like this whole story about like demoitis and shit. Yeah, yeah, is like the best description I've ever heard. Cause like this thing we've talked about, where like an artist, yeah, we'll send you a demo or a rough, and it's like then they hate the mix because it's like not to your point. That one little thing that their brain cannot, they can't also the thing I've noticed a lot is that artists can't necessarily perfectly articulate. They can't for sure.

And that's it's like almost like they're speaking, y'all are speaking different languages sometimes. So you have to figure it out even before you talk to them. You're like, oh okay, those backgrounds are loud. Okay, I gotta make sure those backgrounds are loud because if they're not loud, then that's the secret of it. Yeah, something is loud, figuring out. Something has a big reverb or something has something, identifying the thing, yeah. As long as you give them that, you you can you can do your thing. The whole point of a song is to invoke a feeling, and there's clearly there's something that's bringing on that feeling. Yeah, something that's been making them you know tear up for months listening to this one song, yes, whatever. Yeah, this is that this is this is their their baby. I love the way that you like that clicked so much for me because it's something we've talked about all the time, and I just never knew what identify how to solve how to solve it, identify the thing, yeah, yeah, because it's like around the thing. Because yeah, I mean, bro, artists are at the point where like they'll just forego getting it mixed because they've had so many bad experiences losing the thing that you're talking about, that they're like, fuck me. Mix engineers now, I you know, paying for a mix isn't worth it because they're gonna fucking lose my essence of my song. And in their defense, there's some huge songs with really bad mixes out there.

You know, it's like, which is crazy to me. But like, so you know, okay. You're uh I'm I'm gonna listen to you. I'm not saying nothing good. No, no, come on. Give us a tip. Give us the biggest song with the worst mix. I can't do that. No, damn it. There's one in your head right now, isn't it? Okay, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this way. I hate to interrupt this episode, but guys, I got one thing on the mind right now, and it's data. I can't stop thinking about it. All the artists in 2024 are winning because of data. They know who their fans are, they have access to their fans. Do you? Spotify's not telling you who your fans are. Apple Music ain't telling you who your fans are. But our friends over at DistroKid created a feature called hyperfollow. Every single release, you can set up a pre-save campaign with a hyperfollow and get access to every single fan's email address. Now you can let them know when you have a show coming up, when you're dropping exclusive merch, when you're going live. And without the data, you're just bound by the algorithms of TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. No more relying on those platforms.

We're going straight to our fans. DistroKid is the best DIY distributor. You can upload unlimited music for a ridiculously low rate. And you're gonna have access to features like hyperfollow. OMTdistro.com, you're gonna get 30% off when you sign up for DistroKid, and you can start collecting your fans' data today. Henry, let's get back into it. Can a bad mix ruin a great song? Of course. Yes. Okay. Of course, it can ruin it, but it's subjective because we may think it's bad, but are the consumers overall, some are, but are they really listening to the mix? What are they listening to? I just the whole thing. Like as one. Some people are listening to that, listen to the melody. Yeah. But I've I've heard consumers say, I don't know, the mix is not right. And I'm like, wow, okay. Wow. You you hear people some people are listening to the mix, but some people aren't. You know, some people, I mean, I I can be in the studio mixing for hours, and they'll and and I'll have somebody just walk in and go, What are you working on?

I say, Oh, really? I don't hear what you're doing. Some people just don't hear it. Yeah, like the difference between mix one, two and three. four, five. 90% of mixes are lost on most people. No, I mean, I was working on an album last last week, and me and the AR were going back and forth on these two mixes, and he said, I'm gonna send it to the manager and see what he says. And the manager wrote, wrote back, I can't tell the difference. Does that make you sad though? No, that's like sounds so disheartening. No, it no, it it it makes me think you shouldn't have never sent it to the manager. That's what makes you think. You know, I just feel like as someone who literally through your profession is to make sure that people can hear. Or like, I don't know. The idea of a great mix is that you don't notice it. A good mix, you know, you shouldn't notice the mix. I think that's means you've accomplished your job. If you can notice something in the mix, that's distracting. Some jobs are not to listen. Like some managers and and A&R, sometimes their job is is not to listen to the mix, let the producer and artists do it and let them say this is what what it is, put it out. Yeah, but how many times do you deal with people that are coming in commenting on the mix that maybe shouldn't be commenting on the mix?

Oh, yeah, that happens too. But you know, I think we've we've we've we've lost great ARs, you know, who are there for the for the music. And and they've had some great in input. The um game has changed. Yeah, A&Rs these days are just scanning social media. Bro, there will be no AR slander on this podcast. I didn't say it was a bad thing. It was not slander. A&Rs are great. I love you all. Yes, yes. There's no it's no AR slander. Yeah, I know. It wasn't slander. I'm saying that's a lot of their jobs now. I know it's just what the world. we live in. It's just been a recurring meme on the podcast. But to your point, the AR were out in the streets and now they they're on TikTok. Yeah, they're looking at the artists. It's a different world. So, you know, kind of speaking about like the differences, because like I said, you've been doing this at such a high level for you know so long. The game has completely changed since when you got into it, you know, to today. Um what has the transition for you been like from like the analog world that you lived in in the nineties, right? To now being fully digital, 2025 landscape.

Like, what are some of the things like you know, whether it's like workflow, whether it's of course some of the technical stuff, the costs, like anything that you can kind of point to of like, damn, like this is how it was, and then like this is what we're dealing with now. Well, I mean the the the big thing is going from studios and now working in the box at home. You know, do you like that better? Um I don't know if I even think about it like that in anymore. I've been doing it like this for so long now, you know, and Tyler and I used to mix in the studio all all the time, but now we mix in the box since Chromocopia. But we used to always go on, his records were all about mixing it on on the board. And now we're like, oh, let's just mix it, you know, in the box and see what what happens. And and like what are the differences? It's certainly more it's certainly more convenient. Yeah, from like a non sonically, it feels you can't when you're mixing something on an analog board, sometimes you can explain the sound. It feels good, but they can't explain what it is some sometimes. You can run a song through a board that's not even like doing anything, and it'll sound different.

Like, but is that like the placebo effect happening? Like is that real? It's real. It's all about going through it's like going through circuitry, yeah, and tubes and stuff, man. It's really versus going through ones and zeros, like chip, computer chips. It has to be different, you know. One thing is round and another thing is just straight. But the way you just even described that, like, how do you feel about today's landscape that you operate in versus where you used to operate? I can hear it, but you know, I hear the difference, and that's why I always like to use plugins that I used to use in inside the studio. I I like to use like studio um plugins that are emulation hardware. Emulations? Yeah, they emulate hardware. Because um, because that's what I want to hear. Of course, there's a little bit of a difference, you know. Some people think it's a big difference, and it is, but I can feel it, you know, because I know that they're trying to emulate the analog sound, so I know what I'm trying trying to feel. So do you use a lot of UAD?

Yes. I feel like they have some of the best like recreations of analog. gear. I don't Like the LA2As, the Pultec. All right, nerds, Jesus. great stuff. man. Right over my head. Um, so how much of mix engineering in your mind is technical versus like feel? Oh, and it comes to me as feel. I I'm I call myself more of a street mixer because I'm not thinking about little technical things and I I I can't think once I think like that, I can't think about the mix of what I'm I'm doing. You know, I I can't focus on these little things that people foc focus on and worry about. I I just don't. Do you know all of those things though and just like choose to ignore them in your brain to me it's boring. It gets too you know I I like to focus on what I'm doing and focus on on the on the feel of it. You know it's like sometimes I sit down with people and they'll talk about the technical things. Well did you do that? And I'm like, no you do this no and they're like looking at me like really I'm like no I don't think I don't think that that way.

I I just the key I think is the you you losing sight of the like because I'll I like both you know I'll get technical but then I have to maintain the feel but I've I'll catch myself like you know messing with uh with a fader, like 0.2 dB here and there and I'm realizing like I'm not even listening to the whole song anymore. I'm forgetting what the whole yeah the big picture is you can get lost in that. It's like some people say do you take all your limiting off the the the the master bus before you send the mastering no because that's the sound. If I take my if I'm working on a mix for 12 hours and I take all my shit off the master bus then what was the point? Yeah. Wait. So why why do people do that? Because they think you know they want the mastering engineer to deal with the levels and and and the limiting and I'm like why would you do that? That's what you were what you're that's part of the sound. Why do you take it off and some people get some people are confused that I don't do it. I was like no that's it's part of my sound. That's it that is interesting. So do, so do mastering engineers like love that from you or do they get pissed about that? some people used to get pissed back they can you t pick the lip? I'm like no I can't take that you're mastering this.

This is what you're mastering. You know, and that's why I I I I recommend mixers to find a master engineer that knows their sound and work with that person. Because that person knows what he's going to get and how to work with it. But if you go to a new mastering guy and you give him something that he's not used to hearing, then he's gonna be like, well, there's nothing for me to do. And it's like, all right, we'll just give it some love when you're good. Yeah, get us to that. So I know you're I know you don't do as much technically, and you do operate more by feel, but like I'm assuming you hear a bunch of you know emerging artists' music. I'm sure you comes across your feed, you get sent it, you know, from your son or friends, whatever. Um there any like like just quick fixes or like thought processes that like emerging artists can have to like level up their sound a little bit, right? I don't know, just like is there any just blank? I know that's like maybe too vague of a question, but it's like I just want them to maybe hear like, hey, maybe try to focus on this or think about this when you're you know sending your song to a mixer, or if you're mixing it yourself and trying to just DIY it, like maybe try this or try is there any like just kind of consistent things you hear?

No, because I I don't want to get in in the producer's way. That's his thing. You know, I I don't ever want to tell a producer what to what to do. Because sometimes a producer will work on his drums for hours and have looking for snares and kicks, and then he sends it to a mixer and they change their snare sound. And that and that's the question I get. Hey, you ever change the snares? Like, no, I'm not gonna change that producer's snare or kick. He's been working on on that kick or snare for hours and trying to find the right snare and kick, and then I'm gonna change it. That's rude. Yeah, you embellish, you embellish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll I'll try to make it work. See, my thing is I try to make it work. You know, if it sounds a little weak, I'll try to make it sound like it's on purpose. You know, because sometimes some things don't have to be hitting you in the middle, like pow, in the middle of your head. Sometimes you give it a little feel, give it a little vibe, and it works just as good. You know, you you make sense of of it. That, oh, it's like I I want someone else to think, damn, I never thought about that.

Because everybody's in competition with each other, trying to get the loudest 808, the loudest snare, the loudest this, the loudest that. But if one guy comes with something that's different, everybody's gonna be like, oh shit, he didn't do that. He did something else. And like, and it might feel so it might make someone else feel kind of kind of relieved, like, okay, everybody loves this song, and he didn't do that thing that we normally do. Like, oh shit, okay. So is this a Neil H pogue specific, like kind of approach, or it's my approach because some mixers are just gonna fix the fucking or they're just gonna change the snare? No, not necessarily. No, no, I'm not saying mix do that, but I I've heard, I mean, some will. Some guys have asked me that. I mean, some people have, I mean, more than one person say, hey, do you ever change the snare? I'm like, no, I I don't ever change the snare. I don't ever change a producer's drums. That's to me, it's like Sacrilegious. Yeah, that's like a no-no. He seems like very concerned about it. I didn't know this was such a big thing.

I mean, makes sense though. Taking into consideration the timing. Yeah, I mean, he would have to tell me, you know what, man, I don't know. Can you add something to that? Then I'd be like, all right, let me see what I can find. Okay, so if he came to you with like, what do you think about this snare? Right. How can we level or okay? And even if he says, what do you think about the snare? I might go, let me work on what you gave me. I'm I'm not because it didn't go, uh, let me change it. Yeah, it kind of sucks. I'm not sure. Snare's weak as fuck, bro. Because I always say that. Shit. You know, because you know, because why'd you have to go that far? I'm I'm kinda like the first thought type of guy. If that was his first thought, then maybe he wants it to work, but maybe he's insecure about it because it doesn't sound like everybody else's shit. Yeah, you know, how much of this is like playing into like personal I don't know. It sounds like it's a lot of like relationship stuff, too. I want to make a producer feel good about what he did. Yeah, you know what I mean? I I wanna make it sound better and make him feel good about his first thought.

Wow, versus just change everything. Yeah. And like fuck your, fuck your beat. Well, if it changes it, that's not gonna make him feel good. I know that's what I mean. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's gonna be a a lot of us are in insecure in some way because we want to please. Yeah, you know what I mean? So and we want people to like and to love and all those types of em emotions. So as your kind of like engineering career, you know, um evolved. Comes to an end. Okay, no, no, hell no. I don't see that. You're gonna do this until you die, my friend. Um, like, were there any aha moments for you, or was it kind of just general or like you know, kind of like gradual, or was there some moment where you like really turn shit up because of some like change in your mindset or like approach or something technical you might have learned. So like a Eureka moment. Yeah, was there anything like that? Or was it I'm learning something, you know, and the fun the fun thing about this business and the reason why I I love being in it and staying in it is because I learned something all all the time. I I don't ever want to, I'm I call myself a forever student.

I don't, you know, yeah, I've been in it for I'm like the older guy now, but I'm still a student. I'm still learning from stuff that I hear. I'm like, okay, that was that was kind of cool. And you know, and um, I like l listening to music and hearing what what what the younger generation is doing. But I I listen to a lot of older music, stuff that I listened to as I uh when I was a kid, things that I'm really noticing now, because when you're a kid listening to a song, you're listening to it in a different way. But now that I'm mixing records, I hear those songs in a totally different way now. I'm like, oh shit, I never noticed that thing in the back there. I never noticed that there. I never noticed that thing in my left ear. I never know. So I'm sorry. So right now I'm listening to music completely different now. It's amazing, it's fun. You like listening to it now with an engineer ear? I love it because I'm hearing things different, but I still love the melody, I love the music. I love it even more.

Sounds like it would be a chore because me even being sometimes I like it, sometimes I don't know. Yeah, sometimes it it can be painstaking because I'm you know, sometimes I'm listening too much from a mixing ear, but sometimes you need to. Turn it off. You like forget to enjoy it. Yes, I need to turn it off. But now, now that I'm mixing records, but you know, listening because I was I mean, a headphone, I always tell people all the time, headphones is nothing new to me. I was a kid in my room with my posters and my red lights with my headphones on, listening to music. So I think maybe that's why I I have a knack for mixing. Because I used to be in my room listening to things, I didn't know what it was, but I'm hearing shit. Now I can say, oh yeah, it was panning. I didn't know what panning. Yeah, yeah. It was just it's in my left ear and it's in my right ear. Yeah, so now when I listen to the music I listen to when I was a kid and I go, oh shit, that's what they were doing. Oh, that's what doing that. And I didn't know what reverb was. Now that's cool, you know. You know, but now that I'm listening to older music, oh wow, and now I know what that is because I'm in the business now. And now I can use that.

Also, that's add it to the toolbox. That's what it is. I listen, I take from the older music and bring it forward. I don't listen to the new music mixing and use that as my tool. The old mixing to me is is what I love love to hear and bring that forward. Oh that's what I use. That's that's in my tool toolbox. Damn, I love that. So we've got we've got our friends outcast right here. We got Mr. Andre 3000 and Big Boy. Um, I know you've told the story before, but you haven't told it to the one more time podcast audience. Tell us the backstory of the song Hey Ya!, please, and your and your role in that whole uh debacle. Yeah, so during that time, Dre and Big Boy were doing two separate albums, and Dre had called me to mix the music that he was working on for that for that album. And he called me and he wanted to take take a ride. And so we took a drive over Laurel Canyon for all those who know Los Angeles.

Took a ride over Laurel Canyon, and I was, you know, a prototype. I loved it, all the stuff he was playing. And then he played this song that had a verse and a hook. And I was like, oh my God, what is this? He's like, Oh, that's hey awesome I'm working on. I said, Man, you gotta finish that. You have to finish that. He laughed at me. I said, This is your hit. This is a big song. And he kind of giggled and laughed. I was like, dude, this is this is the first single. And he was, and he kind of looked at me and was like, really? I was like, yeah, this is and I bugged him for weeks, and but and I called it, Did you finish my song yet? And he was like, Man, hey, I'm gonna finish it. I'm on it. Just finish that second verse, man. I'm telling you, this is a but I think the label was trying to put out prototype first, I think. But then um, thank God they all caught on and put out hey hey ya first. And so yeah. So in your mind, what what about Hey Ya has made it such a timeless record? Listen to it.

I have a thousand million times. But I didn't like how do you how do you describe it? It's that you know, something that big is hard to describe, it just hits you with like a man, it just hits you. Hard. It's infectious. And when I heard it, that hook is just one of the greatest hooks ever. But okay, let me let me flip the question in. Why do you think Andre was resistant to some degree about it? Sometimes when artists write songs, they may not know it came out of them, but they don't know that that that's the big one. They just don't, you know, sometimes, because they just have their one brain's perspective on it. They don't understand how anyone else is gonna receive it, I guess. Yeah, they don't know. They just, you know, because yeah, you know, this is the first song that he didn't rap on, really. If you think about it, it's the first one he sang on and didn't rap at all. Yeah. So if you're coming from that per perspective of okay, I'm not rapping, I'm just singing. How are they gonna take that? He sung on on songs before, like Ms. Jackson, but only little segments.

And then he's rapping too, and he's gone. he's rapping it. Correct, yeah, yeah. This was like no rapping. Yeah, so that right there, if when you think about that, it's like, how are they gonna take me just singing a song and not rapping? So maybe a tad bit of insecurity was in his mind of like, hey, this can't be the one because I've never done this before. How could this be the one? Like, yeah, and a lot of songs were just you know, like like prototype, he didn't rap on that either. So this is his time where he's like singing and really expressing him himself from a different place. Yeah, you know, something that he wants to do. So yeah, that's I I I can imagine that in insecurity of like, damn, okay, I'm coming from a place where this is what I I feel, and I don't know how people are gonna take it, but I'm just gonna give it to him. But a song like Hey Ya!, it was just different for that that time. He's bringing something from really, he's bringing something old forward in in his in his way. Yeah.

You know, something it's it's nothing new, but it's like some it was like a rockabilly rock and roll type of song. Yeah, you know, bringing that forward and make people understand that this is what you need to be listening listening to. Don't worry about me being being a a rapper, you know, just listen to what I'm I'm bringing. Yeah, you know, that's that's like that's gotta be like it's hard to sleep at night. Was he nervous, like leading up to the release of that whole project and era? I can imagine that he probably was. Yeah, I can I can imagine that. Yeah, because I didn't think about how you know different that was. Oh, like that was my parents bought that CD. Like that was very different record. I know. No, I I mean just thinking about it. They're not buying Aquemini, you know, yeah. Or Southernplayalistic. Yeah, think about it. Some people didn't even know who OutKast was Correct. until the song hit. Yeah, so they didn't know he was a part of OutKast. They because they yeah, to your point didn't even know that was a thing. As soon as they heard that, they just thought, oh, it was a brand new group.

Yeah, they didn't have no idea about the three albums that was before that or whatever. Yeah, they didn't have Did you mix that whole project? No, just um I can't remember how many songs. Okay, so this is this is perfect segue because I'm really curious about this. Like, what's the difference from the engineer's perspective when you are just mixing a song, a couple songs, whatever, versus a whole project? Like, how does that differ? Are you trying to match the other songs at all? Is there any type of I don't ever try to do that? Just needs to match he needs to serve the one song. I mean, Now I I mostly mix albums now. I don't I'm not like a single guy here single there, three years. I I mostly mix albums. Sure. People come to me to mix their albums. But to answer your question, I never tried to match what what another mixer's doing or match a song of what I previously did for that album. No. I I I look at each song like a like an episode inside of a series. You know, like if you're watching the TV series, sometimes they have different tones, different beats, you know what I mean? Because you're the characters moving from here to here, but then you introduce another character, so it's gonna switch up.

And so that's how I feel. But there is like a theme of the show overall. Yeah, it's a theme, but it doesn't have to feel feel the same. Right. To me, that makes it boring. Like you want to feel differently from song to song to song. If if I made them all sound the same, I don't I'm not giving you any type of I don't think I'm giving you the type of in enjoyment that you need to feel. And so you need to have. And so are most albums mixed by a single mixer these days, or is it still okay? So it is still a lot of them are mixed by different guys. So why do they you know what I mean? What's the philosophy there? Sometimes an artist wants to work with different mixers because they see them maybe maybe they hear them on this song out there. This that's a hit in this song That's a hit, whatever. I don't know, but that's how I see it. Maybe they just want to see how it feels to work with different guys, or maybe it could come down to my monetary reasons too. Like maybe that before. They can't afford Neal H. Pogue to mix the whole album or hit them on the single, but I'm I I only mix albums, so you know, I always try to make I always try to make deals. I think uh you should have one mixer per album, I think just to get to have a consistent.

No, I'm used to growing up. I'm used to, you know, I I'm not used to comp compilations. I'm used to this there's a team that there's a producer, there's a mixer, there's an artist, and they're they're working, you know, in in conjunction. Yeah. Do do mix engineers have managers? Like do you have a manager? Okay, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you don't have to deal with that type of conversation. No, I mean people still come straight to me, but I'll send them to him. Yeah. I don't no, I don't want to mix business and pleasure. But going back to your question about um about the technical thing, yes, you know, when it comes to technicals, like some mixers don't mind um tuning vocals. Me, I don't want to tune vocals. Because that gets me out of my vibe. No. If if the vocals not tuned, I I send it back, have have the producer and and engineer tune it and then send it back to me. Because once I'm stopping to tune something, I I'm not mixing. So I I don't I don't tune tune vocals. So you don't have melodyne.

No. Purposely. A purpose. But but is that again because of just like a you preserving your time, or does that mess with your creative workflow? All of it. All of it. Preserving the vibe, bro. Yeah. Preserving time, vibe, rhythm, motion, the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Are the other Grammy winning mixers, are they also, you think, more feel types of people, or are there some that are like uh you don't know. Yeah. I don't know. There's no like uh conference where you guys all talk about your No, we yeah, that's true. We we don't really uh share like practices or anything. Yeah, I don't sit down with the guys that have been like Tune or anything like that. You know, I don't sit down with Serbian or Manny or the guys like that and talk shop about that and all that. Nah, it's more more the younger generation generation that's coming up to ask me more of the questions, you know. Okay. And which I I understand, you know, they they want to see, you know, because you know, I I know what that feels like coming up being young, and it's like being a deer in headlights, not knowing where you where you're going next. And you know, am I gonna make it?

Like that is is like a mind fuck. Like, am I gonna make it? Can I be that good? You know, am I gonna be you know winning Grammys? And you know, that's it messes with you, you know. I just I just wanted one. Yeah, I mean, because most people don't even have one. I just I was satisfied with just winning a Grammy, you know. what I'm saying? Have you ever taken a picture like holding all seven? Uh, like a Tom Brady ring picture? With their like I'm sitting with them all on a table. Oh man, can we throw that up? Can you send that to me? Two? Can you send that to me? All right, I'm gonna throw that up on the screen here. Henry, we've entered the final segment of the podcast. Okay. My favorite segment. Yeah, damn, those stories are epic, man. Very epic. Yes. And maybe we'll get a couple more here. Let's go. This is the rapid fire rampage, Mr. Neil. We are going to do a three-part rampage. I'll explain them as we go. Starting with just just some short answer questions. Very simple. So Ben asked you about Tyler, but do you have a favorite outcast album?

Yeah, Aquemini. Me too, man. Didn't even have to think about it. Love it. And more specifically, Aquemini, and I the song might be. I mean, what a good title track. That was a rare one where like the title. Track is your favorite. Could be your favorite. Yeah, yeah. That's great. Neil, what is one song that you maybe mixed back in the day that you listen back to now and like would tweak something? Like you would fix something if you could. Waterfalls. Okay. And what is it? Let's hear it. I would have fix the bass. Ooh, what would you have done with it? Made it a little thicker. Thicker bass? Isn't it diamond? Yeah. It is 11 times. See, and that shows you, it doesn't matter. We love it. I don't care what you want to do. Fuck your bass, Neil. It's a diamond, baby. I'm not listening to the bass, I'm listening to the song. So good. I love waterfalls. It's so good. Let's see. Um moving on.

What are your go to studio stacks? I guess potato chips. Just Lay's potato chips. Brand? Just the straight up OG Lay's? Yeah. Just the regular It's hard to beat OG Lay's. Easy to please, man. Sure. What are your three desert island pieces of analog gear? If you could only have three. Analog. Analog gear. LA2A. And SSL EQ. Okay. A 480L. Hey, attention. Engineers out there trying to get their first piece of gear. Want to consider it? Let's go three Desert Island plugins. And don't say just the UAD version of all three. of those. People are doing that. Oh man. I I get people with this all the time. The D verb, reverb. Ooh, yeah, D verb. Uh three, right? Um the Waves, uh, SSL EQ. I love the SSL brand, the SSL, SSL. It's a mixer. I have to put it as number two. It's the SSL, SSL EQs, and the Wave

EQs, because I go back and forth. Okay. So I put them, they have to be 2A and 2B. Okay, fine. We'll give you a we'll give you a four. And number three. Right. Give me four. Mix on a twin twins. Did you mix on an SSL board? Yes. So you're like, you just love that sound. Yeah, yeah. That's what I learned on, and that's what I love. That's what my brain connects with. Yeah. Sure. Um three. Number three. Uh the UAD LA2A. Yeah. He cheated twice. I know. It's okay. It's all right. But it's fine. He knows what he likes. How'd I cheat? Well, that's cheating. he kind of wanted you to not just do the plugins of the hardware. Oh, well, you know what? and that's you know, but it's okay. man, it makes sense though. You like what you like. It makes sense. It would be the, you know. Yeah. You know what I mean? What's so funny is people, you know, I was there was this guy that I won't name names. Name it.

I was at NAMM. He interviews people, and he was asking the same, like, what's your favorite um, you know, plugins? And I was just naming some generic stuff because I love the generic stuff. And I can tell he's getting frustrated because he wanted me to name these extraordinary, you know, off-kilter type plugins. I'm like, I'm a simple guy. That's something I noticed, man. I'm not gonna sit here and name some expensive plug-in that you want to hear. So all just because your audience is gonna be like, ooh, let me look that up. Yep. I I'm just I'm a less is more guy. I tell people all the time, if if you come and watch me mix, you'll be bored. Yeah. Because I'm a less is more, because I know how to get to something without doing some extraordinary work. Because I used to, back in the day, guys would have all this gear inside of their room, towers of gear, and I'd be like, What are you doing with all that stuff? You know what I mean? You know, and I didn't need all that because I knew what I was going for, boom, boom, bam, bam. And that's a consistent thing among engineers.

And and the other thing is like using just basic waves plugins, you can go into any studio. They're gonna have like a waves bundle. You know what I mean? So being able to like kind of fit into any studio and be able to work, you know, somewhere, yeah, is uh is pretty clutch as well. So one thing I wanted to ask you, you mentioning people would be bored. Is there like an average length that a mix takes? Is that like a silly question? It really isn't It was a silly question to cut into my rant. No, no, it's it's a great question. I wanted to ask this earlier, and I'm I can't remember. I gotta give him shit No, it's a good question because some people are quick, some people it just depends on the song. There's some songs I've I've done pretty quick, and there's some songs that have been painstakingly long. So, what's pretty quick versus painstakingly long? How long we talking? Quick is quick is four to six hours is quick. Yeah, okay. Quick for me. Sure. And then painstakingly long is what? Maybe 48 to 72 hours. Ooh. Okay.

Yeah. That's painstaking. Yeah, that is. Okay. I got a guy. I had to ask that, bro. That's fair. I'm sorry, man. It's okay. You could have you included it in your part. That's okay. You waited until my part. You forgot. That's alright. Sorry. Moving on. Um, can you point to anything that a lot of modern day mixes maybe could use, or is there something that like new engineers are maybe missing that they could consider incorporating into their mixes? That like, is there anything that you hear is just missing, or you would prefer? Because this is subjective at the end of the day, but I would say low mid EQ. Ooh, interesting. Okay. Like, what specifically, like tightening it or thickening it? I just think I I noticed that a lot of new engineers coming up, they take the low mids out. And the low mid is what rounds the mix up. So letting it breathe down at the bottom there. I like that. There you go. Pay attention, guys. Good question. Last one of the short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Shit.

Yes. Me and Neil are the same. Yeah. Favorite. It sounded like he was kind of responding to your question. But then it was. That was the answer. Yeah. It wasn't. Oh shit. what is it? Yeah, exactly. It was very fitting, right? Yeah, yeah. Very well done. The next part is the this or that. I'm gonna give you two choices. Okay. Just gotta pick one. Hey, This is fun, man. Thank you. I'm glad I'm enjoying it. Subtle polish or bold signature. I'm always go for subtle polish. 808 or live bass? Live bass. Reverb or delay? Delay. Compress it or let it breathe. Let it breathe. While mixing artist in the room or artist not in the room. Artist not in the room. Same, brother. Same. Can't do it. Like, do you ever we'll get come in the room when I'm done? Do you ever let them in? Yeah. Come in. No, no. I always say just give me six hours and then come in. Yes. And then we can just let me talk. Just let me get to a certain point where I feel comfortable when I'm ready for you, and then let's go go through your notes. Love that.

Yep. Grammy or Billboard number one. Grammy. Mm-hmm. Yes, man artist or overly picky artist. Neither. That's kind of cheating too, but it was funny. We'll accept that, I think. Can we get a happy medium? Yeah. No, they're both bad. Don't do either one. Um phone test or car test? Car test. Mix wearing gloves or mix wearing sunglasses? Gloves. But that's not like a thing, right? No, that's what you would choose, but that's not like a thing. I was just making sure this wasn't like a thing, mixed engineers did. You gotta see the screen. Uh slightly quiet master or slightly clipping master. I think I know the answer. I don't mind if it's clipping. There it is. And finally, become a full-time rapper or leave the music industry forever. Full-time rapper.

Let's go! Fuck yeah. He Can mix his own records. And his son can produce them. There it is. This is amazing. We're on to something. God. A little hit boy esque, maybe. Yes. Let's go. Okay, the final part is the word association. I'm gonna say one word. You just give us the first word that you think of right off the top of your head. Starting with music, melody. Mixing. Volume. EQ. EQ. That's what it is. Bounce. 808. Pharrell. Falsetto. Vibe. Great song. Podcast. You guys. Chorus. Thank you. Beautiful. Automation. Helpful. AI. Carefully. That sounds like a verb.

AI carefully. Don't tap the glass. Let's go. This has been Neal H. Pogue, seven-time Grammy winner. Let's go. Holy shit, man. Appreciate you coming on the podcast. Fresh off the plane. Thank you for making time for us. Hopefully, y'all got some value. You guys didn't ask me. I thought he was going to say mix with headphones or in front of speakers. Okay. Oh, yeah, do that. Do it. Okay, I'm going back to the editor. edit this in, editor. Mixing headphones or in speakers? Speakers. You were the headphone guy. You were the headphone guy. I thought for sure. Oh my god. Listening, yeah. What was that whole thing about? I'm a kid. Okay. Oh, that one on mixing. He was like I was a kid with headphones. I grew up to be a mixer. You throw don't throw on a pair of open backs though, maybe to check where you're at in the mix? Nah. I go to the car. Car test. Car test. There it is. There it is. Until next time, Henry, what are we doing? Getting out of here. Getting the fuck out of here. Peace, y'all. Later.