How Artists are ACTUALLY Breaking in 2025 ft. Shawna Peezy

Can an emerging artist actually pull a Frank Ocean in 2025? I would say no. It's just gonna be a very long road. Yeah. What are labels and distributors looking for then? Who's even cutting through? If you think about Dochi, Sabrina Carpenter. You think brand first. Wow, that was huge. It is way more effective to extend a moment than keep chasing different moments. That clicked so much for me. Me too. My recommendation is always that could be the most important thing that like everyone needs to hear. The truth is, great music isn't enough anymore. If you don't know how to tell your story, no one is going to listen to the songs. In this episode, we sit down with Shauna Spears, aka Peezy. She is an absolute beast when it comes to all things music marketing. She's led massive marketing campaigns at Epic and Interscope Records, managed artist partnerships as an executive at TikTok, and now she's the VP of marketing at Venice Music.

In this episode, Peezy gives away all the game on how artists are actually breaking in 2025. Your music is the product, but your brand and story is what's gonna get people to buy in. And now for the full conversation with Peezy. So I feel like we're in this content era of music right now, right? And there's so much pressure for artists to post, post, post. Like it's like the number one thing that any manager, label, distributor is telling their artists is like how frequently they need to be on social media. I feel like that same pressure applies to like how they feel about releasing music. Do you think that we're in an era where like the release frequency needs to keep up with the pace of like the content frequency, you know? Cause I just feel like there's just so much pressure of like go, go, go, go, go. So content pressure is a real thing that I get complaints about on the daily. Yes. But I think with releasing, it's different because I think they have a lot more control over that process, um, and feel way more comfortable in the studio, right? So getting it out in that way feels very therapeutic.

Putting a camera in your face automatically turns it into something else, you know? So But so how often should artists be releasing in 2025 then? Well, I think it depends on where your profile is. Okay, right. So let's talk about an emerging artist because that's how I would say the majority of our community is you know, not major label uh roster artists or any label. Yeah, well, that's true. Yeah, well, I think the indie emerging artists needs to be releasing frequently enough to be able to A B test a few things to understand what do people even want from me, right? Um, so my recommendation is always EPs. So if you have all this music that you're making, listening to these projects to figure out what's the through line, what's the narrative? So if we listen to all these songs in the studio and it's like these feel like two projects, right? So it's like which one comes first is the thing to figure out, and then from there it's like out of these six or seven songs where the two or three that feel the strongest, or we know exactly who we're talking to, putting out single single single, then body of work, kind of waterfalling, is that still a thing? So people can sit with it and decide, do we understand who you are?

Like, who can you bring along for the next piece of it, right? So so emerging artists, you think can still release full-length projects, and that's still like a viable strategy. Because I feel like a lot of people I think that's why I said EP. Not full EP. Yeah. No, we're talking about five to eight, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, because I'm like, I think you can hear one song and think that was interesting. You hear another one, it's like, maybe not so much. The third one, you're like, I like the beat. You know? Um, and then when you're like, That's the worst thing to tell an artist by the way. What do you think of my song? It's a cool beat. You know, but fuck that, bro. Production can carry. It does carry. We were just talking about that off camera. And It still means the song is great. You know, it'd be like that sometimes. But uh I so I think then once you give them that EP, they're able to at least sit with it and know where you are. Are we in love? Are we breaking up? Are we hitting the streets?

What are we doing? You know? Um, because it's it's just another touch point. So am I in this same place in my life? Am I also heartbroken or am I in love, or whatever the thing is? It's just like more to hold on to than you get song by song. But but the fans, I feel like are just in the comment section the second that this EP drops. They want more. When are you dropping the album? When are you dropping that? Right? Like it's so demanding. I I do think there is a demand, but I also think it's like, what kind of appetite are you setting? You know? So um, I'm trying to think who what was the Twitter conversation just recently? I feel like it was Boldy James. I love Boldy James of somebody being like, oh, he drops, drops, drops. But it's like, well, when you set that kind of cadence with your audience, that's what they want. So it's like, oh, this is what we're doing now. Versus as a Frank Ocean fan, yeah. People have given up asking for new Frank Ocean. We don't care. Just

wake me up when you're ready. You know what I'm saying? It's like it's it's just gonna be what it is. So I think it's like as you're doing this, you're setting the tone, artists and audience of just like what to expect. So yeah, but can an emerging artist actually pull a Frank Ocean in 2025? I would say no. Well, we're here to hear what you would say. We didn't ask anybody else on the podcast today, PZ. I would say no, and that's only because it's just like how many messages we're getting in a day. And if you're trying to be in my world now, it's kind of like you have to earn it, you kind of have to love bomb me a little bit. Just like here's visuals, here's music, here's all these things that are happening. So it's like, okay, actually, yes, you fit into my soundtrack of my life and what I'm doing. And then once you're a part of it, I can handle a disappearance. But you gotta get in there first. That's a really cool way of looking.

So cool. I love I've never heard that before. That clicked so much for me. me too. And I've always been the one that's just been preaching that you need to be more in people's face, but I never put it like that. Way better than you've ever said it. Maybe maybe you need a new co-host at this point. No, but it's so true. Or we need a third one, don't you? Yeah, yeah. Facts. No, it's so true. I feel like there's just so much competition for everyone's attention. Yeah. I mean, because like a new HBO Max show might have dropped, and like now that's that's literally what I'm doing every I'm binging this shit till it's done. Yes. A new Drake project, you know, drops, whatever, right? So it's like, yeah, how do we compete if we take that Frank Ocean approach as an emerging artist? It's like you can do whatever you want, right? Like, we're not here. It's just gonna be a very long road. Yeah, I think that, and that's okay. So it's like it's deciding what you want, you know? It's like, are you a hobbyist? Are you a purist? Like, what is that gonna look like?

And managing those expectations. Yeah, there's things that could speed up the journey for you potentially, and you don't have to take every shortcut, but taking none of them is also gonna be probably very tough. So, how how do you handle these conversations? Because I'm assuming, you know, with a roster of artists at Venice, right? Um, I'm assuming release frequency, right, is a topic of discussion, and you on the marketing side, you understand what it does take to once again like market music effectively and and market you as an artist effectively. So, how do those conversations go? It's always easier, in my opinion, when you understand what do they want to stand for, what have they survived, and what do they want to tell the audience like for this era or project, and then work backwards from there, versus I think artists now will make a song in the studio tonight, and it's like this has to come out, like the world has to hear this now. And it's like let's build the appetite for it, or even understand what's gonna come after it, you know, because I think it is way more effective to extend a moment than keep chasing different moments.

So even when virality happens of thinking like, oh, what's the next? It's like, or we can make sure people really understand this. Let's milk this, yeah. Yeah, so all right, there's an artist that's part of our community. She's having, you know, definitely like viral moments happening with one of her songs on TikTok. It's converting into streaming, right? She's growing her fan base, growing your audience. I mean, my recommendation to her was kind of in the same vein of what you're talking about of like this has already proven to work with all of these videos and all of these people that have been streaming it, like, but there's so much untapped market. So, like, how long do you think you should extend the moment? Yeah, so I think it is whatever the nature of the song is, right? So if we think about whim whimmy right now, it's like, oh, this started to heat up before the summer. This song is gonna last all summer. You know what I'm saying?

So, with that, it's like when you're thinking about the narrative arc for it, it's like, okay, we're heating up, we're getting ready. So you can work out to this because we know we're getting summer bodies. Then you get to the summer. Now we're outside. Now you can perform this everywhere, and this is what's happening. So my thought then would be, oh, we want to at least make sure you have two more club records that way you can get booked to perform for 15 minutes versus doing one song, you know. So then it's like, I think that's when uh I think it's brilliant what they're doing, by the way, uh, with the pull up your skirt record, and I'm blanking on what the third one is. But I'm like, oh, now you have a 15 minute set. Like you throw some talking in here, you do the rest, It's like you can fully move around in a different way and get booked in a different way. So I think it's like timing of thinking what's going on in the world and what your viral song and moment is about and how long it can sustain. So it's like they have at least three more months to be working those records as a trio.

But I don't know what your artist song is that that's happening or like what it's about. I definitely think it has legs, you know, to it's not just like just a summer song, it's not just a this song, just a that song, whatever. But I think a lot of artists are concerned with like audience fatigue, right? Or like song fatigue, you know, like just posting so much about one song. Even again, even if it's working, they have this mentality that like, oh, people are gonna get tired of it. How do we that's kind of a real thing, right? Like that is a very real thing. So how do we navigate that? that question of like uh the artist myth or something of what they believe that's actually not true? Yeah, and that was my answer. Um that uh it gets cringe or it gets, and I think too, it's also the conditioning of like old Instagram, I think like when followers matter, yeah. It's like this isn't that, yes.

This is really the lottery, right? So you want to put out as many chances as possible, you don't know which piece of content is gonna stick and resonate with people, and you have a product to promote, you know? So it's like there's never too much promotion if someone really understands what you're doing. I do think there has to be diversity. So it's like I don't want to see a hundred performance or lip sync videos, you know. Yeah, in the same location, same part of the song, yeah. So I think like it's the variety and it's also tying it back to whatever else is happening. So what do you mean by that? Like, what's an example of that? Because I think I might know, but I don't actually. So say right now, my favorite TikTok sound is your mommy? mamacita? Mommy, I'm a mom. Mamacita. I saw Baby Tate post that. Is that where it's from? I had no idea. Yeah. So I have never seen an episode of Love Island.

Yeah. But that clip, I thought you might have gotten me. But it's just like to me, if you're an artist, so say in Tate's case, it's like you're an artist, you're actually pregnant. This is just funny to lean into. You know? It was perfect. So I think it's like just that diversification that all of the content doesn't have to be strictly promo. I have to add to just the fact that I just want to remind people so you guys know, but like the algorithms are very different now. It's not just, you know, who you follow, you see all their content. You're getting fed stuff that you are watching and that you are interested in. So like naturally, if you have seen enough of this song and you're scrolling away from it, like you're not gonna get fed it as much. So on the creator side, like your, your content's only getting fed to people that want to see it. Yes, yeah. You're not pissing anyone off. Like, keep going. And bro, think about it. How many people do you follow? Yeah, like a thousand something. A thousand, right? More. Think about how much time you would have to spend on Instagram to see a thousand people's daily posts. Yeah, yeah.

It's follow followers are dead. I don't know if you guys know that. They're actually don't matter anymore at all. No, seriously. It's insane. Like, you couldn't actually get through all of your followers' posts, right? Like, not even a fraction. I tried to watch stories because I thought, you know what? All of them. I've never seen everyone's stories. It didn't even last. No, I but I did it on the plane. So I'm like, this is the perfect time. I still wasn't done. That was four hours. She had a four hour flight, guys. That's what I was not done. Wait, you tried to watch all of them? Yeah, because I've never done this before. I thought it would be a great idea. No. It wasn't a great idea. No. No, I was entertained. Okay. But did not make it through the end. And I thought, oh, well, I forgot to follow you. But again, that was a like sick diabolical experiment of yours. That wasn't real life. Like followers do matter for stories. And you still didn't get through. Still didn't get through. Right. It's like that's insanity. Yeah, oh my gosh. But so you know, something I wanted to get your take on and yours as well. So I just watched the uh Russ Manager's Playbook uh episode.

Go watch that. Love the manager's playbook, love Russ, obviously. Love Arish. Um yeah. So he he talked about like, you know, if you wait too long to drop a song, though, maybe the moment has passed. So I know you mentioned the example that like artists record song, they're like, this one's gotta come out next. It's fire, it's the best shit I've ever recorded, whatever, right? They're super jazzed about it. And yes, there is some, you know, something to be said for like pump the brakes. How is this? Like, how are we doing this? Let's do this properly. But then his point was like, you lose some of the like zeitgeist and like the fucking magic of like we've got to do it. Some opportunity costs. We made this song that night. It was clearly how we were feeling. It was part of our era, like that, like specific part of the era, too. Why would we wait a long time? You know what I mean? So, how do we kind of I don't think it's necessarily waiting a long time? But I get approached all the time with like anyone who wants to release and have support around the release, right? And what you really have to think about, is also what your expectations are from this release.

So if your expectation is this just has to get out. World needs to have it. Cool. If your expectation is, I would like social support from SoundCloud or at Creators on Instagram. Oh, I'd like to be on New Music Friday. You're not putting it right out. That takes time. That's not how I go. You know, They don't drop everything that they have going on and be like, you're right. This song's gonna now supersede every fucking other thing that we had already on our plate to do. Yeah. So I think that's the thing. So as long as the expectations align of, oh, are we just putting this out? And we're gonna take a reactive approach. We're gonna see if it catches on, we're gonna see all of these different things. Cool. Yeah, it's not just wait for the sake of waiting, it's have a strategy for everything that you do. If you come can come up with that quickly and you want to drop it, cool. And how much leverage you have, right?

Because also at this point, it's like press this fan Come on, it's built in. They'll eat it up. So yeah, it's like he can drop today. Yes. And it's just like, oh, I felt like getting this out, and it's gonna happen. So I think that that is the difference, too. Of just like, what do you want? And I'm sure for him, he doesn't care if he's making RB weekly or Rap caviar or whatever. It's just like my base is gonna stream, you know what I'm saying? So so I feel like somewhere around like when the TikTok era of music started, um, you know, virals I love TikTok era, me too. I I I know that's no one would agree with you know, yeah, it's an era. I I really It has an ex-TikTok employee, yeah. Um, so what's so crazy is my son. We were getting in the car and he's like, he names his Billie Eilish song to play, and uh was like, how do you know this song? Mind you, um, it's like I used to work with Michelle Ahn and Marissa Ramirez over at Interscope, and so I knew that was their priority.

But this was like early on, and I'm thinking, how? He's like, TikTok. And the way that that made me feel to be like, oh, you know something I didn't introduce you to. Did it humble you? I'm like, there's a bigger voice than mine out here. Um, but no, so that really made me so curious that I became obsessed. Because before I'm like, oh, they're lip syncing on here, like, I'm cool, you know. Him knowing that so many records are hers, by the way, but that in particular was the moment where I'm like, oh, I have to get on here and I have to figure it out. That proved discovery was happening there. Yes, because I'm like, for him to know that, I'm like, okay, this is happening. This is real. So, like, let me pay attention. So just started getting really curious. Boom, we hit 2020.

There wasn't anything to do but to be on your phones. Um, but then at that point, I'm locked in. Yeah. And I'm like, I have to figure this out. Yeah. So let me just try with an indie artist to see if I can build them a following on here just for shits and giggles, you know. So I'm working with this artist, she was doing covers, and I'm like, not only do I think you should be doing covers, but there are these little skit like sounds that they're using. And I think if you play into this and like lip sync over them, let's see what happens. So probably three months, 25,000 followers on TikTok. So I'm like, okay, I kind of know how to work this app. Then I was just like, all right, I have to work here. I literally was like, I have to work here. So I made my little vision board. Wow. TikTok. And I just became obsessed with it. And then I was like, well, let me see if I can grow my own TikTok. So then I get on there.

I wasn't even talking about music. What were you doing? Like mom shit or like makeup in weeks. Let's go. That's how her hair looks so nice. That's how she got the job. So I was just like, well, let me see if I can build my own following. And then I'm like, I'm not on here even really offering any value. That is value. That's value. Thanks, guys. The ladies out there were loving it, okay? They appreciated it. So yeah, it's like, okay, well, now I'm at 40,000 followers. I figured this thing out. Um, so fast forward top of 2021. I'm like, let me take this up a notch. Let me make a visual resume. And I'm gonna make it like in these kind of skits because I really want to work here. Yeah. So I do the iconic Suge Knight um Source Awards skit. And then I did the nobody knows what it means, but it's provocative. Yeah.

Uh, to open up a talk all about content. And so then I talked all about content and where I thought it was going. That was I launched that in May. By August, one of my friends was like, I think TikTok is hiring. I was like, you too. That was my first time of going through rounds of interviews. It was legit. Um, but what was very interesting, which also made me be like, oh, I have to work here, is in the interviews, they're like, What's on your For You page? What are you watching? You do not want to see what's on Henry's for you page. So as I was going through the thing and talking to them about it, they could understand that I really was like, Love this shit. I was like, oh my God, this is a lot of music marketing. And uh Yeah. So they were with it, ended up joining that team and working there, also just seeing how ideas travel, and that it's like, damn, you really couldn't pay for this. Like this is an opportunity just to gain an audience in a day.

That's amazing. Yeah. Where else can you do that? Yeah. So I'm I'm still very pro TikTok. I know they're taking some blows, but you know, I'm still pro-TikTok. But um yeah, I think what it has done for music discovery is also just crazy. Yeah. Even songs that it brings back up. Like while I was there, uh the K Bush one, even. Yeah, and uh Mint Condition Breaking My Heart. I'm like, this is crazy to be happening. Let me take a moment to interrupt this episode and tell you about our friends over at DistroKid. DistroKid is easily the best DIY distributor on the marketplace. Let me tell you why. It's only $23 a year. That's less than two bucks a month for you to upload unlimited music to all of your favorite streaming platforms on the planet. It's so easy that it takes me like five minutes per upload, and that's when I'm multitasking dealing with my two-year-old son. Hands down, my favorite part about DistroKid is how easy it is to add credits to an upload. I don't know what distributor you're using, but with DistroKid, it's super easy.

You can put the artist, the producer, the songwriter. I'm pretty sure you could put like the junior associate engineer of a song. And me, I I want to know who's on the record. And if you sign up using this link, you're gonna get 30% off an already insanely low price, and you can finally start adding your collaborators because they are checking. They will notice when their name's there and they will thank you for doing it. Let's get back to the episode. What do you think? Okay. Yeah, no, it's wild. So I feel like, you know, they're around 2020, 2021, um, labels, distributors, et cetera, Started signing things like very quickly, right? Like, song goes viral, artist is now signed to the song like 10 seconds goes viral. Yeah, snippet goes viral, artist is our artist now has a deal. Yes. Are we still in that? You know, you work at a distributor, right? Like, and you're familiar with the you know, major label system, even. Are we still in that mode right now? I feel like that didn't work out for most people. Okay.

So I don't think we're still there. Okay. Because I think it had to happen though, for people to understand like what the lifespan of the record was gonna be. And I always say, like, if you get a hot record, you can make money for 18 months. Like, if you were able to like move through, go through the clubs, or it was viral enough to like attract brand opportunity, right? It's like, you know, you can't eat for 18 months. So I could understand why they were doing it, cashing in, putting tons of money into digital to make it spread even further, and or getting the remix that you wouldn't have been able to get without that label push, right? So it's like, I think they had a formula that worked. Uh but what has happened now is it's too many of them, and it's happening too fast. And then the song doesn't last that long. So it's like, oh, now we're not getting the 18 months, we're getting six.

Okay. So now we need to slow down and kind of like backtrack. Or even if you made the song playing around, do you even know how to make a project? And like talk about something else or something. Or different skills. Are you even an artist? Seriously. So yeah, because it's just like the pressure you don't have when you're just creating something off the rip of just like, I was having fun, it was so great, I was drunk, versus when it's like, oh, you're in this recording studio, they put you in with producers. You've never even been in this scenario before. You know, it's like how how can you really do it? Oh if you're even prepared to sustain the moment. What happens next? There were a lot of failures, I would say, in that in that kind of era. Yeah. So what are labels and distributors looking for then? Is it the music? Is it the story, like narrative of the artist, or is it the numbers? So I think the answer to this question has changed a lot.

So I think before it was like, oh, do you have an audience? Is there a demand for this music that you want to put out? Right? So that's when you were looking at all the metrics. Oh, what's your Instagram followers? What's your YouTube views? Monthly listeners. Then once everyone figured out, well, you could kind of buy this. Right? So then it's kind of like, oh, uh, what's the step further? Like, do is your audience so linked in you have this many people on a mailing list? Is your audience so leaned in? This is how many hard ticket sales you can do? Um, who's even cutting through, right? It's like if you think about Chapel Roan, it's like you are, yes, the songs are great, but I'm kind of hooked into this for a different way or a different reason, you know. Um, I think it's like it's the angst, it's the it's like all of these things that resonate with me. Like, oh no, maybe I don't want to do that. Maybe I wanna, you know what I'm saying?

Like go against the grain. I think, like, the amount of times a week I channel, like, Chappell Roan, you know, like I'm just like, nah, fuck you. I'm not doing this. If I'm doing it my way, bitch. Yeah, and that's what it feels like. So it's like it doesn't work with my wife. She looks at me like who are you talking to, Chappell? Chapel, sit the fuck down. Let's get back to the case. Take the kids to daycare. Exactly. So I feel like if you think about her, or even if you think about Dochi, Sabrina Carpenter, it's like you think brand first. Yeah. So you're looking at the the worlds that they've built. Is that if I'm an artist, is should that be like disheartening and sad for me that the music isn't first? Or is that like an opportunity? in your mind? No, because You can't even get to the story without the music. Music has to be good first. Yeah. So it's like the music is gonna set the stage of to drop me into where you at. If you listen to Doechii, it's like, oh, Swamp, Tampa, Florida. Like, it's setting all if you're thinking of it, like if you're reading this script, it's setting the tone.

You're clocking where everything is, and it's like, all right, this is where she is right now. Relationships, we don't know. This guy, denial, what's going on? You know, it's like, yeah, it is create it's visually create in the world that you're gonna hear. So even in her music videos of on the couch, looking up at the ceiling, uh, driving around in the Nissan, It's just like to me, seeing all those visuals are like, okay, you're starting over again. There's a rawness, an edginess that's just I understand where you are in your life. Yeah. So do ARs, either at like Venice, you know, on the distribution and kind of label services side or at a label, do ARs come to marketing before they sign? Is this my camera? Yeah. It's right there. So you know what? Okay.

Cause then, like, I feel like they should, but I think I know the answer to this question. Let her cook. Let her cook. You know what? I I can see both sides. But uh, no. Sure. So this is what I this is what I think, right? It's like I understand music enough to know if a record is gonna cut through, right? But I don't think I have the musicality to sit in a studio the same way an AR would. It's like, no, stack that, do this, like you know. Um, so I do see the value in what they do. Yeah, there will be no AR slander on this podcast. There will not be. There's a but coming. I do think though, that it's like as this is happening, right? So just for a very quick example, if you have a young girl, young meaning under 25, right? Young girl, under 25 from the UK, singing an RB pop record, right? Trying to determine who this is.

Do you know any? In your mind, you would start to think what this is gonna sound like, what she would be interested in, just off of those things. You think, oh, young, fun, so you're out. You think of colors, you think of you know what I mean? If you hear a record, and then it's like, this is a soul ballad. Where does this sit? You know, like, and when are her fans that are under 25, like gonna be locked in in this way? And what is she talking about on this record that is gonna make people connect? And like, what are all of those different things? So I think a lot of times it is looking at the actual product. A lot of times everybody wants to go against the grain, like we're doing something so different. And it's like, why? Uh this isn't gonna work. And there are so many times where from the beginning, I'll be like, great voice, great song, but this doesn't go with the look. So are we either going to make changes to the look?

So this makes sense, or different song, or a different song. Yeah, and a lot of times people double down on no, this is about the music, and it ends up not being about the music. You know, wow, no, that's that could be the most important thing that like everyone needs to hear. Yeah, I mean, it just all has to add up, man. Like, it just all has to make sense. Like, you can't dress like a folk singer and be rapping. Like, you might think that sound, but I'm gonna be the first folk rapper that looks like a folk singer. And you may be, but it's gonna be a long, hard road. So it's like why are we making it more difficult? To convince people of uh like something that they are not used to, you know? So even when I see the conversations that happen online, especially with the RB girls of being like, I'm releasing a pop song. This is pop.

And I'm like, well, pop is popular. So popular would be step one. We can't we're not just deeming it a pop song because it's like you are singing in a way that you don't think resonates as RB. It's like some stuff are just battles. I don't, I don't think the artist should be focused on. It's just kind of like, what makes the most sense? How do I feel familiar but have ways to differentiate myself? You know. Um there's this music marketer that we had on the podcast. His name's Ruff. He's the SVP now at Big Loud Records. Um, and so he talked about this concept, and it was more around like the 80-20 rule is kind of how you know how he deemed it. And I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with this. It's like it should kind of be like 80% familiar. And then like that 20% should be kind of the wild card shit that we're talking about, right? Like it can't be the opposite.

Yeah, and I think like no matter what, we're all gonna experience this time together, right? How you walk away from it and describe what happened today, how you like we're all gonna say it differently. So I'm like, no matter what, I think that's what artists don't get as well. It's just like you are coming to the coming into this with a very particular point of view. So it's just like, let's figure out how we make it the most digestible. Let's figure out what pieces are we gonna share to where people really understand who you are. Because I think when people meet me and they understand you're southern, you're a mom, you grew up obsessed with female rap. I get it, girl. You know what I mean? It's just like those few things. So that's what I'm always trying to pull out of artists is that it's just like once you share some pieces of who you are, people are gonna get you in a different way. And it just builds connection whether we listen to the same music, eat the same food, like the same clothes, all of these extensions of yourself, people are looking to be able to grab onto.

Yeah, for sure. And to like to kind of put it in, add a little inspiring kind of twist on the end, like I think you can kind of earn the right later to experiment more, right? If you do build a fan base and you do get to a point where you're comfortable, then you can maybe try your, you know, your punk rock album or or whatever, you were your folk rap, whatever you're trying to do. Well, it's a good point. I mean, you know, you've kind of referenced it as like eras, right? Like what era are we in? So I mean, I think that's how I look at artists, you know, when it comes to evolution of their identity. I do think it should be like, again, it should all kind of like make sense as like this timeline. It's like here's where we were, and then here's where we're going, and here's how we're, you know, we're we're here next, and then this is where we went to after that. How do you think, yeah, like what should people's approach be to evolving, right? Because you can't stay the same forever, but we also don't want to go full send into a completely opposite direction and then not add up, right? Yeah.

When I'm listening to music, I immediately see a visual. So even in thinking about artists and eras, to me, it's like a TV show, right? So every season's gonna be different. If you think song by song, episode by episode, it's just like you're adding another layer to the story. What happens next? So if in song one, wait, y'all broke up. Oh, song two, you hook back up. Song three, it's over again. You've met a new love. Oh, he's a jerk. You know, it's like you're just on this ride and it's unfolding. And I think that's the thing. Um that we really have to get to. It's just like, all right, how do we do this pacing? Or I think either people want to hold back so much of the story or they want to tell you everything at once. But it's like, no, this has to build, like there has to be some context for you to even understand the next layer of it. So like, how does an artist even just initially, right? Like kind of just getting started, early stages.

How do they hone in on that identity? I think it is what do you want your audience to feel? So even right now, if we're putting out your record, yeah, okay. It's like, what are we talking about out of everything that you've been through, right? Because the first project is your entire life experience. But what do you want to share today? Um, the struggles of being a parent. Okay. Yeah, that's the era I'm in right now. So it's top of mind. Yeah. Cool. Yep. Struggles of being a parent, right? Okay. Kids are how old? Three and twenty months. So coming up on two. Okay, cool. So now we are immediately crafting a world because as a mom of an 11-year-old, you with the little ones, I'm like, oh, I remember. that stage. That's so cute. Right. So it's like, this is your time. So now you're thinking about different things. So even if you thought about what kind of things support this rollout in this era, it's like, okay, this is when you're going to the daddy and me classes and learning a little tap- tap, tap. so it's like, oh, to see you doing that, or seeing you and the kid with that music underneath.

I'm immediately like, oh, this makes sense. This is what you're doing. Then if the next song is my wife wants me to cook or she doesn't cook enough. It's like, oh yeah, feel you pain. So yeah, it's like now you're talking through that piece, but I am immediately transported to what it's like to have a three and a 21 year old. And tired. Tired is the word I would use. Yeah. So even then. Bags under my eyes, PZ. So pull out the pieces of whatever you're feeling right now. Yeah. And then just start building that world around it of this is what people are gonna be able to relate to and immediately clock when they see these things. Bro, how did she turn my life as a parent of small children? Drop it into like an album. concept? She's good. She's so good, dude. That's what it is. I was considering I'm going to the studio tonight. Okay. Lay it down. I don't know about that. I'm going too far now.

You gonna record me, bro? For my full rate, yes. What Damn, bro. The the one more time baby book? Oh, she's cooking. You leave out of here, You go and you read it. Hey, this is what dad did today. Holy shit. Oh man. So how how do I know when the like brand and the story is clicking? I always say if I can dress up as an artist for Halloween, Halloween test. Yep. Um, that's one. And then two, just once you have those isms of like things people can say. So I feel like if you think about SZA, we don't know if SZA is gonna show up as a book. You know, it's like, but it's like you know there's gonna be these little quirky elements. It's just fun. It's like you we don't know. It's gonna be a surprise. And so it's like you're in it for that. We know what the hair is, it's gonna be over the top, it's gonna be fun. Even the clothing choices is gonna be fun.

Uh I think that ties all into it. So even if we're putting out the um what we're gonna call your album. I don't know. That's just your job, right, PZ. I kind of liked daddy and me. Daddy and me. All right, we're going to put out Daddy and Me. Then it's like, you know what? That's hard. Top of the vision board. We need a new balance deal. We need some dad sneakers. Oh my god. New balance partnership. A dad hat. What? Can't get haircuts all the time. Got kids. Holy shit. Grill accessory package. I'm thinking. Why why did I go to teeth? When you said grill. No, on that. That's not the right. No. You were just at the pool today? Yeah. Floaties. Floaties. Damn. She's good, man. You're going to fill everything out. Okay, so you know, we had an episode. it's so funny that we got you on, like, you know, similar uh storylines. So we had an episode that we did called the Dochi Playbook. So it was I think it might have even been inspired by your fucking case study that you you know, spearheaded at.

We at least Saw the carousel before we decided. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we'll flash up a couple of the uh slides here. I'm just signing, I'm signing up our editor for shit. I love doing this. Sorry, Paul. I don't do it anymore, so yeah, do it all you want. Paul. Yeah, yeah. We love it, Paul. Uh, but no, so you know, we did an episode called the Doechii Playbook. Um, it really seemed to resonate with people because it was like right after she had just won the Grammy. And um, again, just you know, a full masterclass in like artist identity and storytelling, but like what why specifically did you become so fascinated with Doechii, right? From a marketer's perspective. Because I thought it was her third viral moment. Okay. So and everyone else thought it was her first, yeah, kind of. Or like just the average average person literally didn't even know who she was. Right. So I was super interested because seeing her one from me being obsessed with TikTok. Yeah.

So the first moment was uh yucky Blucky Fruitcake. Yep. Right. So high class, Doechii with two eyes. Uh so watching that piece happen, um, how it reacted on socials, seeing her rally an audience then, right? Of like, these are women, these are uh queer identifying people, like all of the things that were happening. I'm like, ooh, this is good. Like you're you're building a great base to like support who I can see you being. Because at that point, too, she was uploading on YouTube, like all of the things to where I'm like, I'm understanding who you are as an audience. Everyone that's fallen in line with this trend and all the videos that I'm seeing is like this is exactly like who you need to be in your base. So that first moment, and then the second moment was with what it is. So what it is, it was like, oh, here is the major label push of just like, oh, here is your second moment, right? And so I think to see then um the initial like stripped back visuals of her with the braids, and that was an immediate departure from what what it is looked like, which I was like, oh, okay, I see what's going on here.

So it just differentiated her in a real way. And I thought you had two run-ins with virality, and this third time is so intentional. It's like it's gonna be so you, you're gonna get to do what you have wanted to do from the jump your way. Because you couldn't look at that and like see anything else. It was like, oh, you're like breaking all the rules here. Yeah, I mean, is it was it surprising for her to kind of you know take that like new look and new stance with with the new project? Like because she could have kind of just like leaned into what was I mean, it was working, obviously. She had those two moments, right? It's like, was there a part of you that was like, damn, I'm surprised she didn't just like do that, but then it made it so much cooler when she had the braids and looked, you know, swamp princess like or whatever. I I thought stripping it back that way, and then everything she was talking about on the project, it immediately felt like, oh, I'm getting the real you, you know. Um, and then I even think the press that was done around that time, so the paper magazine and the way that cover looked and everything.

I was like the button she's deciding to push is so smart and is opening up a conversation that it's like she actually has the intellect to be in that conversation and raise like just different things that we should be discussing. And I I think she was just so ready this time around. It it yeah, I just loved it. So so what can like an emerging artist take from, right? Because like, you know, we tried to do that episode, but I want to almost just get your take on like what what can an emerging artist take from the dochi playbook in your mind and apply to their own, you know, career. Like, so let's assume no major label push, no big budgets, right? Like, just what can we still do though, despite all that? I think it was the intentionality because you couldn't look at that and not understand immediate things. So it's like whether all you seen was the cover art and wonder, what's this alligator doing here?

And then you're like, oh, she's from Florida, Florida alligator. So it was just like the way that those symbols made so much sense. And then I think the differentiation. So if you looked at the female rap class at the moment that that was coming out, it's like, well, if everyone is a certain look of makeup, a 40-inch wig, let me go the other way. Immediately you're like, oh, what's happening over here? Like this is a very different thing. So I think it just it was the best thing to do. Intentional is probably like a word that I I use it. Yeah, I'm annoying with it because it's just, I don't know. I I just you're annoying in general. It's true. So every every word I say. Um, but no, that's probably the most annoying word that I say. Just because um, I do feel like a big reason why a lot of artists, even if they have great music, I think a lot of the reasons why they don't cut through the noise is because uh too much of what they're doing is kind of like just all over the place. They just go off of like, you know, just they're being too reactive or just like knee-jerk stuff, right?

Where it's not being intentional enough. So I'm glad, I don't know, I actually don't think they're sitting down and really thinking deep on the whole picture, yeah. You know, just having that real deep thought process of what is it that I'm doing here. Cause I think before you would really have a whole building that was figuring that out for you. Yeah. So it's like, here you go, I'm turning in my album. Someone else figured this out. Yeah. And well, if you gotta have the audience before you get the building, you gotta figure it out. Yeah, they're not signing you unless you already did that. Damn. So then is it just like that artists need to, you know, shameless plug, like watch content like this and conversations like this to try and like become because it's not it's not really like intuitive for a lot of artists. Yeah. So if you're an artist and you have a team, right? So what you want to hope is that your team is listening to you and they are thinking through what can we get people to latch on to? Like what can happen, right?

If you have to figure this out on your own, I think it is starting with very basic things of just how we went through the exercise of this is what I want to talk about. If I want to talk about this, what are all the sensory things that happens in this moment in this scenario? Let me write that out. Then if I think about this person, what brands and what things are coming into mind, what products do they have? What's making sense? So that's when you think the dad hat, the dad shoes, the like all of the things, right? And then it's just like, where do you want to go next? I think you kind of have to have in mind too, because it's like if you know you want to experiment next, then it's like, well, what's the safest bet to do that? Is it experimenting? So I'm gonna do a collab project with a different producer or a different artist. So I think like you're constantly trying to create context, familiarity, things for it to make sense for people. Should they already know where the next one is going?

Or can it be very like, I'm I'm in this era and I just am doing this. I don't know where this is going, or should they already have the like I don't think it has to be final, but I think you need to something. Yeah. So I like a uh enough to know like a loose outline. Yeah, because so right now, if we're daddy and me, right? And it's like these are the ages. Now we know what's gonna happen next. Oh my god, they're gonna go to elementary school. So what's gonna happen in elementary school? So then you might become Mr. Roberts. That's the next project. Cause now you feel like, oh, teaching you all of these things, right? You learn social skills. Like you have to learn to be around other people. So this is the realm you're gonna be in next. You know what I mean? So it's just like start working on that PTA project. It just starts to feel different. It's like, oh, there's more people in the mix. You're yeah, I have to entertain you in a different way.

So even if you don't know exactly what the sound is gonna be, it's just like what energy are you trying to create? What mood or mode are we gonna be in next? I think it's the thing. No, it's interesting. Henry, what's the time? Oh we've entered a final segment of the podcast. Oh let's go. It's been so much good value here. Let's see if we can get a little bit more so good. With the final segment, PZ. Okay. Okay. This is called the rapid fire rampage. Oh my gosh. Yes. Are you? I don't know. Are you buckled up? Are you ready for this? No. Okay, well, we're doing it anyway. It's a three-part rampage. Okay. I'm gonna start with some short answer questions. I'll explain the other two parts as we get there. Okay. Starting with, how about this weather we're having? In Atlanta. I guess you haven't been here long. You know, I've been here not even 24 hours, but you know, I I I enjoy a cloudy day. Okay, well, yeah, that has been the weather here. So Bro, she flew in just for the one more time podcast.

That's what we're telling. That's our story that we're crafting. It's our narrative, bro. Yeah, it's like our identity is that PZ flew in for us. PZ, who's an artist that we haven't talked about yet, who's marketing themselves flawlessly right now, and why? Flawless. Or just you're a big fan of. That was a strong word. You dialed that back so much. A fan of the marketing? Yes, like branding, marketing, they're crushing it. Okay. So there's two things that I'm enjoying right now. One is LaRussell. Cause I feel like he has hit his sweet spot. Um, especially with the record that he performed at the baseball game. Yes. I know it will be shocking, but I don't watch baseball. But you saw that. Saw it. Saw that. Marketing wise, I feel like he just gets it that makes so much sense to me who I'm paying attention to. Uh to see, what's gonna happen next here. Has been Vic Mensa. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Him, him like saying how he was just tearing up in the shower. Well, that was so like y'all need to watch that post, like, because as an artist, it was very like tragic, honestly. But he's so raw and authentic. Yeah, so from the car videos, the workout bit, like all of the things. I'm like, okay, slowly influencing me. So I'm keeping an eye out. So you weren't even tapped in with Vic Mensa that much before, huh? This is like It's been a little hiatus. I know, but um, but you're back in, you're dialed in. Shout out to Vic. Bro. PZ, what are your go-to studio snacks? Chocolate chip cookies. Okay. Coca-Cola. And if we are in LA, which most times we are, it's Bossa Nova, which isn't quite a snack, but I like a full plate of pasta. That kind of girl. Entrees in the studio. damn snacks turned into entrees. It's always me.

And we're just like, Aren't you guys hungry? You're a newer artist with a thousand dollars about to drop a single. How are you putting your dollars to work in your rollout? Thousand dollars. That's it. The beat is free. We'll assume the song is done and that part's done. No, no free beats. Hashtag No free beats. You paid for the beat. You didn't even, you know. Producers happy. Okay. Thousand dollars. I would say, is this a male or a female artist? This matters. Because if you're a female artist, you gotta get a little beat. I'm just saying. What should we go for? I don't know. How does it matter? Because you have to pay for upkeep. Oh. It's true. You gotta look. Let's go male. Let's go male. Fair enough. Then all you need is cheap as possible. All you need is a $40 haircut. A unique low white tee. The AIRism one has a little weight on it. Okay. Um yeah, and a clean pair of shoes. All right. So appearance that's gonna cost you say $250. Okay.

You spend $250 to look good. We're gonna assume you already have a nice phone. Okay. And the song is about it being a great summer day. Okay. Cool. So first things first, we're gonna see you go to the mall, buy that shirt, get ready, get your haircut video. Mm-hmm looking good. Songs in the background. I like it. Then you're gonna go to the park. You're gonna dap up the tens because it's a viral trend already happening. Put your song underneath. That was fun. Baby, there's some things happening like everyday people or Black Market Flea or whatever. You're gonna pay the cost of entry. Gonna film the crowd. Whoa, look at this. What a cool thing to do. Music's underneath. Having a good time. That's Three pieces of content right there. Love that. You're gonna get some fire cover art now that you got your hair good. How much is all the how much is all this? So the three pieces of content. How much we budgeting?

You did this yourself. That was nothing. Just free. That was $0. We only have $250 for the outfit. You only had to pay to get into whether you went to black market free or everyday people. And how much is that? Hopefully, You know somebody and you're on the list. Okay. But if not, $50. $50. All right, We've spent $300 so far. So now we're at $300. We have $700 left. Yep. We now have those three videos. We're gonna go to sound.me and we're gonna test all three of those creatives. So let's put $250 each. But wait, how much do we have left? We got $700 left. Oh, 200, not $250. Okay. Um, so we're gonna put it behind it. Run these micro campaigns and see which creative do uh the creators automatically go for. Who do you get the videos from the fastest? Which ones get traction? And then if you say, oh, people really like the haircut videos. Let's lean into that. Versus um, if I think about uh different records that was more like environment, then I'm like, oh, this was the party, and this record was playing, so then that's when the other ones would work. But I think you need those three different things to be able to test out if you're a new artist of like, where do I fit?

Do people want to see me centered? Do they want to, which is how I look, here's my get ready with me, or do they want to see this haircut video? So it's like, oh, they care more about a process video, or is it the vibes? So you're at a party and it's like, oh, this is the soundtrack for what I'm seeing. So what's sound.me side note. It sounds like they have creators that will make videos with your channel. They need to cut me a little check on that. they will. We'll hit them up. No, we will. But no, I think there are um a lot of different platforms, whether it's that or tiny big sound, but it is when you are an independent artist, there where you can start with really small campaigns of like a hundred dollars to do it. For micro influencers or what? To use your sound. Yes. Yeah, got it. Okay, and so we spend 200 on each. So we now spent 600 plus three. So we spent 900. We got 100 left. Our 100 left, which one of those three performed the best? Put your last hundred dollars into the best performing format.

It's interesting. No ads. Yeah, just micro influencers. Well, because here's the thing. I love it. How I think about ads, right? Is that it's like you kind of gotta know what people give a damn about. Yeah, you gotta test first. So it's like, what's the most low risk way is to at least get a lot more videos into the mix to kind of be able to look around and see. Um, but I feel like the ads that I see that are tried and true is I always feel like YouTube TrueView, you're gonna get the bang for your buck, right? You want eyeballs on your music video. Yes, this is gonna happen. To me, the meta ads, it's like, where are you driving people to if I don't know you? So, where should they if they don't know you? Or don't run ads on them? Well, I I think it's it's oh meta friends, please. Well, it's like it makes sense if I see a Steve Lacey ad, and I'm like, oh wow, you're going on the road? Yeah, I'll be there, you know?

But random artists trying to drive me to switch to Spotify to play their song is hard. I think so. Yeah. I think you would have a better time convincing me to go check out your song if I saw you really interacting with the song. I think the way TikTok does their ads, so now it's just like you'll see whatever video they uploaded, but it just sponsored. It's like, oh, I like that. Um take notes, Meta. Yeah. Just saying. Just saying. I think the way that it is the way that it is rolled out to you, it just it feels like, oh, this didn't interrupt my experience. I feel like everywhere else is like, sad time. You don't want to interrupt the experience. That's big. Yeah. For sure. Okay, yeah, moving on. That I'm glad we elaborated on that one. It wasn't extremely rapid fire. No, but that was important. That was important. Those were gems. Let's go to you've just been appointed supreme leader of the music industry. You can do anything.

You have unlimited power. What is your first order of business? First order business. If you don't listen to the music, you can't market it. Ooh, wait, wait, what do you mean by that? I think you should market music. Then you actually listen. Yeah, like if we're talking about female rap and you don't listen to female rap, what are we talking to? Like this is crazy. You're a real fan. Last one of the short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Shit. Hey, that's mine. We got one vote for shit. Let's go. No one says shit. Thank you. Finally. We haven't had a good shit in a while. That wasn't the best way to say that. You should call a doctor about that. Moving on to the this or that portion. It's like a gastroenterologist question. I'm gonna give you two choices. You just have to pick one. Okay. Starting with TikTok campaign or YouTube docuseries. Oh my god.

Starting off hot. YouTube docuseries. Ooh. From the ex-TikTok employee. Interesting. Coffee or cocktail? Cocktail. Analytics or intuition. That's a good one. Intuition. Yeah. I love how you're patting yourself on the back. I just want to make sure you heard that one. That was good. That's a new one. I thought that was good. Okay, good. Participate in a dance battle or a rap battle? Rap battle. Organic growth or paid ads. I think I know the answer. Organic growth. Babysitting your kids, Iggy Azalea or Troy Carter? Troy. Hey Gardens. Does that make him a better? I'll just saying. Okay. Gentle. Great dad. Great dad. Wow. Burnout or boredom? Burnout. AirPods in or speakers blasting. Speakers blasting. Small cap venue headlining tour or primetime festival slot? Small time.

Venice or United Masters. Come on, man. Come on, man. It's Venice. Steve Stoute. Shout out to the gang. Steve Stout, we'd love to have you on the podcast. Go on. No, Troy Carter, we'd love to have you on the podcast. Obviously, Troy, too. First post on my Instagram is me cheesing so hard next to Steve Stout. Really? That was the first like industry party I ever went to. And I was just like, what? Ah, yeah. You know him? He's great. Yeah. Love it. Only a couple more here. Banger or ballad? Banger. And finally become a full-time singer-songwriter or rapper. Or leave the music industry forever. Leave the music industry. forever. Damn. You ain't got the bars. No, and I don't It's like the reason why I work with artists is because I think the amount of courage it takes to get up there and say who you are, what you think and how you feel. I'm like, oh, this is different. You've been doing that for the last hour, amazingly, I feel like. Yeah, but dude.

It's different. I don't I don't think I say that enough, y'all. I respect the fuck out of all you guys because I'm scared to do this sometimes. And this isn't even about like my life and like my soul, right? We're not on a stage. This is just me Asking very smart people questions. It's Not that deep for me. I love that. Yeah. Okay, the last part is the word association. I'm gonna say one word, and I just need you to give me the first word that you think of off the top of your head. Okay. There's no correct answers. You're only judged on speed. Okay. Oh my god. Starting with music. Money. Content. Attention. Pillow. Sleep. Marketing. Fun. Tadpole. Swim. Streaming. Blah. Independence. Yay. Podcast. Fun. Greenland. Hot. Brand. Unique. Pink. No.

Instagram. Necessary. AI. Scary. Diamond. Blink. Venice. PZ. Let's go. What a Rampage. What a rampage. What an episode. What an episode. So many gems, bro. Marketing and branding. Hopefully, this guy has inspired you guys to figure out how your brand can connect with potential fans. Dude, it's all about the intention. Intention. You know what we should do? What? We should do a few lives. You guys pick indie artists out of your community. They play two songs, and I'll help them set up the intentionality. That's amazing. What? Let's definitely set that up. Drop a comment. Drop a comment if you want to be the first. Do you want to be the artist. Exactly. Run this video up. It has to be live because they have to be willing to share with the class. Yes. Everybody has to learn. So it's just we already do lives on Discord. Wow. They would love that. This is amazing. Until next time, Henry, what are we doing?

We're getting out of here. We're getting out of here. Peace, y'all. Bye.