Music Marketing Doesn't Have to Suck ft. Magic Nothing

On this episode of the One More Time podcast, we are joined by Zach Fishman, aka Magic Nothing, who is an expert music marketer with a very simple message for independent artists. Can we just get you to say your tagline and like music marketing doesn't have to suck? Perfect. That's it. This tagline hits home for so many artists because marketing is seen as like a necessary evil to having a successful career in music. Marketing is just a dirty word and it sucks. A big part of this frustration comes from this overload of information that's just available for free on the internet. Especially, especially when your goals are not clearly defined. What are you even trying to do? If you don't know what you're trying to accomplish, not only are you gonna do a bad job getting there, but you're gonna end up somewhere you never wanted to be in the first place. You know what I mean? Bro. You can follow every marketing guru, you can read every newsletter, you can watch every episode of this show, but it all turns into just noise if you don't have a plan. And I think that when people say you need to do something, that's a little misleading because you can do anything and there's a lot of options.

Maybe social media is the right tool for you. This is how Instagram works, and this is how you can use it towards whatever your goal is, right? Maybe diving into AI fits your strategy. Ideally, you could be yourself and create something good and let the systems figure out how to market it for you. Overall, Zach is a really cool guy. He's like this marketing oracle that somehow instills fear and calm into us at the same time. He's got some crazy hot takes, but he also makes us feel like everything is gonna be okay. What is the most overrated marketing strategy? Everything. All of it? Yeah, all of it. One more time. One more time. Where did Magic Nothing even come from? Like he asked me that question. I was like, damn, that probably would have been number one on the research list, and I didn't do that research. So well, the name originally was I'm a musician, and I've had a project, my solo project called Marmalade Mountain that I've been doing for a while.

And originally it was my backing band, Marmalade Mountain and the Magic Nothing. And the joke was just I didn't fucking have a backing band. So I would introduce them. I'd be like, it's Marmalade Mountain and the Magic Nothing could be on the flyer, and then I'd show up with my guitar and be like, and everybody like, you know, welcome the Magic Nothing. And it didn't exist. That sounds pretty good. Yeah. And then it became like my record label that I put my music out on, and then it became a show thing. And then I just, it's just been this idea and this weird ephemeral thing that I've always wanted to develop. And it just was a brand and identity that I always loved and was just like fitting, and I just adopted it for this project. That's amazing. It's kinda unintentional. So can we just get you to say your tagline and like the like end of all your videos? Can we just start there? Yeah, yeah. Music marketing doesn't have to suck. Perfect. That's it. That's all we needed. I needed that sound bite to start. What like, why do why do you think most artists think that music, you know what I mean? That music marketing sucks.

Like, why do you have to say that at the end of every video? It's clearly an effective tagline, which means people do think it sucks. Yeah. It's a really good question. I think that it's actually pretty complicated. I think one of the core problems is that musicians, a lot, at least a lot of the musicians in my community growing up, and a lot of the musicians I interact with on a regular basis, they don't like business. Straight up. They don't like, they're anti-capitalist, they don't like business. Marketing is just a dirty word, and it sucks. And it feels like it's taking you away from the craft of being an artist and the identity of being an artist. And I think it's at odds with this feeling of like being connected to the divine and getting like pure inspiration and creative, you know, output. And then you're like marketing, you're like, ugh, I just feel like vomiting in my own mouth. You know what I mean? And so I think that that's kind of a big piece of it. And then the other side of it is just people don't know what to do and they get frustrated and they feel like they're banging their head against the wall, making embarrassing videos of themselves and posting them on the internet. And that definitely sucks.

So I think there's kind of like these two very practical, and then there's like this very emotional side to it that I think a lot of musicians experience. Yeah, see, for me, I I think there's also probably, at least again, in the artists in our community and the people that we talk to, it's like I think there's a big misconception about like what marketing even is. Yeah. Right. Like, I think most artists think of it exactly in the way that you were describing it, as far as like promotion, right? Like they just strictly think of it as like the promo, like posting their own video side of it, right? I don't even think that they associate the other pillars of marketing when they hear the word marketing. I think like their brain does immediately go to like, oh God, I have to promote myself, and like how cringe is that? Like, that sucks. I don't want to be that fucking artist. Yeah. So what what are the different like buckets, right? Like of music marketing. I kind of want to just set the stage. I just want to debunk the myth of that it is just post videos of yourself. It's more than TikTok.

Yeah. Although that is part of it. It is typically. I mean, I think that it's whatever kind of you want. Like, so much of being an artist is world building. And guess what? Marketing is world building and sharing. So it's like there's a lot of the of the identity of being an artist, kind of inherently is marketing in a way that I think people would not like that I'm saying that, but I still think it's true. You're building an identity, you're building a brand. I think that it's the younger generations are just comfortable with it because they've been doing it their whole lives. Like the way that you present yourself to the outside world is to some degree marketing. It's like communicating your identity in a way. And a lot of artists are like creating this sort of like other identity for themselves. And that's like somebody like Bob Dylan would say, like everybody's wearing a mask anyway. So, like, why not just change the mask if you feel like it, which is why he's always morphing. So I think it's like I think that's one side of it, is just this identity and brand side.

I think the word brand also freaks people out, but there's like vibe, you can use whatever you want, you know. Like art, we have a vibe, like you can just look at us and get a sense of our vibe, you know. And then there's like the like practical, you know, there's like the doing of it, there's like the action of marketing, which is like actively promoting, so that could be like posting on social media and all that stuff, and then there's passive marketing, which is like figuring out ways, like putting a sticker somewhere, you know, and figuring out how to like associate in meaningful ways to like build your brand and all that sort of stuff. So I kind of think about it in those ways. I didn't do a very good job of like clearly identifying these buckets, but that's kind of how I think about it, and I see this as this big amorphous world building and communication thing. No, I love the idea of just kind of like the brand and identity and kind of just like the story and narrative that we're telling, but then I do love kind of separating that from the doing of the marketing, right? The running of the ads, the posting of the content, the doing live events, the live streaming, whatever like parts of the doing that you want to talk about.

Like I love actually kind of just generally separating those two. Um, but if I like if I'm an artist, do you think that I can just be whoever I feel like I am inherently in my core as an artist, and that is good enough on the brand side? Or do you think that the best artists are like super intentional and like spelling out what their brand and identity looks like and means and having all these like word webs and like you know what I mean? Like how much is thought out versus just essence and being? Because I think a lot of artists wanted to just be like, I just am who I am, and like that's what it is, versus uh I think from who we've talked to is that like the best of the best could like perfectly summarize bullet points of what makes them unique and what makes their story something that anyone should give a fuck about. It's complicated, in my opinion. I think that it it depends on your goals.

It depends on like so many people have different ideas of what it is they're trying to accomplish. And if you're trying to be like an empire, right? Like Dolly Parton is like an empire, and such like you say the words Dolly Parton, everybody just sees a flash of like exactly what she looks like, and I guarantee she is like fully aware of her whole brand identity and audience, their politics, their everything, right? She's very careful about not getting into politics, actually. And then you have people who are more just like being themselves. I do think there are some of those that are like in the indie world, like the world that I come from. I think it's a lot more authentic, which is a word that I wrestle with. And and some would argue that's still masking anyway. I wouldn't go that far. I think there are some people who are able to just like they just sort of stumbled into a certain sort of, it just happened to them. And I do think that that still happens. Um, and I think maybe there's other people behind the scenes that are doing a lot of the more like targeting and all that stuff.

But also all of this stuff is we're in the process of everything changing because the systems now are getting stupid smart. And so our own need to define these things is shifting in a very confusing and disorienting way, as like AI developments are happening, which is it feels I feel a little detached from reality when I'm talking about it. But it's just that things are getting automated to a way that ideally you could be yourself and create something good and let the systems figure out how to market it for you. That's kind of the idea and the marketer's dream, and also maybe the musician's dream. Yeah. So there is anything our community or artists or anyone out there could be doing to prepare for this new wave? Like, are you doing taking steps to like get ready for this? Oh my God. Oh, dude, I'm working on so many things, right? So my background, I also was a software engineer for a long time. I've done a lot of stuff, but that's how I survived as an independent musician forever, was like doing software engineering so that I could still tour or whatever. It was like remote.

And so I've been built, I'm actually like, I just launched a beta platform for a playlisting service, and it's gonna be so much more than that. And there's so many things that you can do now to prepare. But in my opinion, the reality is that it comes down to like number one, ownership. If you own your shit, that's huge because with something like generative AI, it depends on source material. So if you have source material and you can create infinite versions of your own work, you have a lot of power. And that's what we were looking at. Like I just put up a post yesterday about this this fruits music guy, which are you guys familiar with him? I saw your post on him. Yeah. I mean, like, well, for those that aren't, yeah, go ahead and tell us. So he's, and I'm not, and I, you know, a lot of people do not like what that guy did. And I understand that side too, but I also understand from the marketing side, it's very, very simple, straightforward, genius move from the past 10 years, but in the future, it's gonna be replaced by AI. And the idea is that this guy figured out, okay, I'm gonna like identify how Spotify works.

It pays at like, you know, all I need is like 30 second streams in order to generate money. So what's the how can I get the most number of streams to generate the most revenue? Okay, I'll create like short clips of passive listening music that's focused on people doing things. So, like, maybe like ambient music or study music or house cleaning music, it's not exciting and sexy, but it's like this is something that has value to people who are just passively listening and who are subscribers who pay money to Spotify. So that music's then gonna get pushed into the Spotify algorithm. He's maximizing his number of streams because it's playing in the background. He starts marketing it and generates 25 million streams a day. So it's like you can do some insane Ask him what He sold so he sold it for 80 million dollars. Oh shit. Right. Here's the thing. Why are we podcasting, bro? Why are we not creating AI ambient music, dude? Well, so that's the thing, right?

And a lot of people are doing that. And what's crazy is that there's a lot of people that are still doing that and getting rich, right? He's just one example, and that it is what it is, and a lot of people are not into that. But it's the it's the music business. The music business is always gonna be that way. But the future of that, it's gonna be like some kid in his room just generating thousands of remixes of his own songs and like figuring out how to run ads on streaming platforms. And eventually the streaming platforms are just gonna be like, hey, we actually can just generate our own music. So we don't know. Oh no. Yeah. Oh no, I've never even thought about that. Of course. Future. so we're in a very interesting and confusing time. But in my opinion, it comes down to ownership. If you own source material, if you are a songwriter, if you are a curator, if you're a tastemaker, if you know what people are into and can still create something meaningful and interesting, it will connect. And for our generation, this concept of generative AI music is like fuck that.

But for the next generation, we have no idea how they're gonna respond. They may hate it, they may love it, there's gonna be a pushback. It'll be punk rock just to make music at all. You know what I mean? So it's like it's crazy. So true. There's so many unknowns that it's like the best way to prepare for it is to do the thing that you love to do, because at the end of the day, there's no reason to do it if you don't love it. This isn't the easiest industry to make a living in. So if you just want to make money, go somewhere else. But if you love music, follow the thing that you love and and trust that if you build your core skills and and like keep up with what's happening, you can find a way to survive. I hope you guys are enjoying the conversation. I want to take a quick moment to tell you about our pals at DistroKid. You can't get your music onto streaming platforms without a distributor, and DistroKid is an excellent choice to handle that for you. For the ridiculously low price of $23, you can upload unlimited music for an entire year that is less than $2 a month. I tripped on $2 walking down the street earlier.

They have countless features to help you out on your musical journey. One of my favorites is splits. Instead of my collaborators hitting me up all the time saying, Where's my fucking money? I can input everyone's percentage when I upload the music and DistroKid will handle it. I've personally used DistroKid for many years and can genuinely recommend them as a great tool to get your music out into the world. And if you sign up at omtdistro.com, you'll get 30% off an already insanely low price. This is absolute peanuts for unlimited uploads yearly. We wish you the best with your creating. Let's get back to it. Yeah, so I saw this post by a uh artist that I love, John Wilde, um, huge fan of his. Uh, he kind of made this post about AI and how like he truly thinks that again, at least in this current state, that listeners can tell if the the music has been made with like blood, sweat, and tears, and with that like pure love and like passion for making music. Like, do y'all think that we are still in that place where like listeners could really tell if it was like a human toiling over this song and creative process for hours or days or months or whatever? Or do you think that's just like again, him being an artist that really wants to cling on to that like romanticism of making music?

I think we'll we'll get there where you can't tell soon if we're not there. I mean, I think it's coming. I think there's a mix. And I think like, like, I had somebody, I could somebody break this down for me in a way that I really like, which is that there's kind of like three buckets. There's like fully just human made music, then there's fully AI made music, and then there's hybrid, where it's a mixture of like people worked on this, but they also used generative AI in the process of making it. And I think what we're now entering is where there's kind of those two buckets that like either it's fully AI or it's not. But now what's happening behind the scenes, and a lot of people aren't talking about it, but I know for a fact it's happening because a lot of my friends are in the music industry. They're now using AI for certain pieces of the music, and still, you know, everybody's used ChatGPT. You have to massage it. It still requires oversight. It's not, you know, it's very rare that a fully AI model is gonna create something that's you know, that will come, but we're not there yet. So most of it is now gonna be in that middle bucket.

And so people who have been in the factory of making pop music, for example, the Max Martins of the world, who already have a factory of songwriters and producers and musicians producing number one hit singles and have been doing that for 40 years, are now in a position where they're like, we're only gonna be able to compete if we up our game. So we're gonna have to bring in AI to speed up this process, or the producers will start doing that on the ground, or whatever. So that's already starting to happen. And I guarantee there's music that's that's being released every single day that has elements of AI generated content in it, you know, to produce a free sample because you can't get the rights to the sample or it's not worth it. So I'll just create another version of it and then you know, manipulate that and use it. It's very enticing. I mean, the arguments are all there to use it. Absolutely, and it's and so we're we're in this really interesting time. And and a yeah, the the political backlash is insane. And oh, yeah, you've even seen it. Dude, I get it personally.

Yeah, dude. I saw you, I mean, I mean, you basically had to do like a fucking post redaction, or not even redaction, but revision to just be like, all right, everyone chill the fuck out. Like, here's what I meant to say in a little bit easier to digest way. People are gonna get pissed. It's Like, yeah, it's a very sensitive topic, man, right now. Uh on at least, I think the sensitivity really comes on the like making of the music. Where I think that it shouldn't be an issue. And I think artists who are full sin, let's just make AI music all the way, and then artists that are in the hybrid world or artists that are like clinging on to just like human-made 100%, you know, uh you know, human-made music. I think everyone should agree that maybe AI could at least help them with their marketing, right? And their business side of their career. Where do you think artists could use AI on the music marketing front? Oh, I mean, it's uh AI, dude. The problem is here's the here's the problem.

And somebody put this really well with with social media too, where it's like everybody hates social media, but everybody loves the opportunity of social media. And what I mean by that is like it's a drag to feel exploited, it's a drag to feel like you're like you feel like you're like giving up your soul or your personal space or whatever, or that you're required to be on it, or it's taking your time. Totally valid, right? But then you also understand, like you and I, there's this opportunity to reach so many people with whatever message you want and to create whatever you want, and that's very exciting. And the challenge is gonna be the same with AI, where it's like it's hard to argue with something that's really good at everything and knows everything ever done by anyone. And you know what I mean? So, like if you're it doesn't matter what you're doing, if you know, and like I will never tell anybody how to feel about using something or not. So there's always gonna be purists, right?

Like, there's gonna be the guy who wants to make a pot in the style of like ancient Japanese craftsmen. you know what I mean? Hell yeah, sick. There's always gonna be a market for that, and then there's the people who are like, fuck it, let's mass produce some crap. And that's also their thing. And like in some weird way, that becomes this weird other like genre and scene, like isn't like vaporwave or something, kind of like leaning into this whole like sort of plastic universe. I don't know if that's not really by genre of expertise. I mean, yeah, I was like, man, this guy's really well, you know, he's well spoken across all industries. Well, you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe it's like everybody's gonna have a different read on these things of what is and isn't okay. And the reality is you can you can take this technology, which is so vastly powerful and figure out if you feel okay using it and where you want to use it based on your own personal goals and whatever it is that you care about. And like but like, where are three ways that artists should start using AI to help them with marketing, right?

Like, I just want to get if it was up to you, like if they're like, Zach, I need your advice, man. Like, how can I be using AI to help me further my music career? Like, where do you start? where do you start? What are like the top three ways they should use it? Yeah, okay. So I always I always have to preface this. I would never say you should. I would say, like, here's the thing. God, he's a fucking politician, Henry. I have to be, man. Like, I like to do it. This PR guys in the background. Seriously, bro. Well, no, it's like it comes down to like, because this the the this is like a big part of what Magic Nothing is about, is it's all about identifying what matters to you first because the reality is you can take this as far as you want. And I'm gonna put up a video about this soon. I was working on it right before our call, where you can take this really far, right? Like, you can use AI to identify a niche market that no, but it's underserved. You can use AI to generate music to serve that market, you can use AI to generate ads to advertise to that market. You can use AI to run the ads, you can use AI to optimize the ads. You can use AI to distribute the music.

So you see where this is going, right? You can essentially create an AI record label to create AI music, and you can create an AI agency to run AI advertisements to market it. And it's fucking crazy, but like the reality is that's gonna happen, and there's gonna be a pushback against that, and there's gonna be an alternative, and you get to choose what you do or don't want to partake in. And it all depends on your own goal. So at the end of the day, I think it comes down to figuring out what matters to you first. So if your goal is to build your career as like, I want to be a songwriter and a performer, then maybe you want to use AI to do the things that you don't want to do. So maybe you'll use AI to help you identify booking agents to reach out to that have the right audience in certain cities that you don't already have content or contacts, or maybe you want to use AI to help you with like automating your advertising because you just don't have time because you want to focus on the songwriting and the performance. But if you hate performance, you know what I'm saying?

So depending on your goal, you might want to use the problem is this technology, it can do a lot. So it comes down to figuring out how to plug it into the things that you don't want to do so you can focus on the things. This is the great dream of technology, is that you can use it to do the things you don't want to do so that you get to do the things you do want to do. No, and I don't know how that's gonna play. Yeah, and I was giving you shit, man, by like kind of like skirting the answer because you know, but I think it's important. Like what he's saying is like you need to, it goes back to just like goal setting. Like, even artists that come to us, it's the exact same thing. It's like, what are you even trying to do? Like, I mean, you talk to a Nic D who we've had on the podcast, it's like he has no interest in going on the road. So he's not gonna fucking use it to find booking agents. He doesn't give a shit. Like, he has booking agents, of course, knocking on his doors, he doesn't need to do it that way. But I mean, even if he did want to, or even if like he wanted shows, like he doesn't. So it's like that's not a goal of his. So, like, I do think the goal setting thing is important. Like, how do you think artists should set goals, right?

Like, do you have like an approach or something? You know what I mean? Like a way, because I think that's a hard thing for them to do because they all just want their music to be heard is like the goal, right? But it's like, okay, that can take shape in a lot of different ways, and it's a little too like spread out if we just use that as the goal. So, like, what's your way of communicating like the best approach or an approach to goal setting? Whatever that first thought was that just popped into your head. Yeah, I mean, that's such an important topic, and it's so unsexy to artists. Yeah, like it's boring as fuck, but it's the most important thing, dude. It really is. Because it's like if you don't know what you're trying to accomplish, not only are you gonna do a bad job getting there, but you're gonna end up somewhere you never wanted to be in the first place. You know what I mean? Bro, yes, and that's the problem, and that's every workshop we do, every course I do. I'm like, here's how you can use this tool to like get more streams. But the reality is none of that matters unless you know why you're doing it, you know what I mean?

Yeah. So let's start there. And it really is important if you don't get that. This is why so many people get taken advantage of in music. They don't know what they're going for. They're so desperate for attention that they'll sign anything that gets put in front of them, and then they get into a situation where they essentially feel exploited because they don't know that they walked into agreeing to something that they never wanted. So it's like step one, you gotta just have like some soul searching. Just figure out what actually matters to you. Why do you like making music? Why do you why do you like performing? Do you like performing? Do you like making music? Is it just about getting attention? Is it about some deeper thing where you're like, oh, this is like a talent and a skill that I have that makes me feel good. And it's like I like connecting with people, right? So how can you like focus your efforts on the thing that you want? And I think this is the great existential question that we are all going to have to face as technology starts to get fucked up, scary, right? Where it's like, why, why?

You know, what am I what do I what matters to me? Um, and once you have that, everything gets so much easier. And you don't have to question every step that you take. You don't you can identify bad advice that's not relevant to you, like that. You know what I mean? Um, it's so helpful. So that's that's yeah. What do you think the best? I think a lot of artists, like the average one anyway, definitely not everybody, but the average artist would just say, like, I just want to go in the studio and make my music that I love making, and I want it to support me. However, I think a lot of artists don't maybe wouldn't even care where the income came from, you know? Are are there any like monetization strategies that maybe are more attainable? Or if I just am an artist, I just want to make the music and like yeah, let's figure it out. Yeah, but I think that's where they're gonna end up in the exact position that Zach was talking about of like you're gonna be you're gonna end up being somewhere that you didn't even actually think about and want to be, right? So, like if they just take that approach, they might end up getting booked on a bunch of shows and quickly realize, wait, I didn't even want to leave my fucking family. Like, I I don't want to go on the road, you know what I mean?

So I think it it's but I know what you're saying. I'm I'm saying, like, what what is a good approach? Are there any that are better than others? You know, if I'm open to anything, like yeah, meaning so meaning like your goal is to make money without leaving the studio. I just want to make my music and pay my bills, man. That's it. Great. So an easy way to do that right now, and this isn't gonna be forever, is you would just produce a ton of work and make sure that you own it, and then go ask AI to identify a market that's underserved, and then make your music however you want. Don't even worry about serving that market. Let the AI do that. So you're like, I'm just gonna make whatever the fuck makes me feel good, make your work, and then you take your work once it's made, and you just remix it for those markets. Wow. And like a bunch of different versions of it to fit in certain. Think about the history of music industry. That's essentially what it's always been like you have these sort of factories of people producing factories is a word that it's just gonna feel disgusting. But you have like I even cringe when you said it, and I'm usually the guy that's like That's what it is. make all the music and pump it out and make the money.

And that's but that's the business of it, right? And so if you want to be in that business, that's how that works. But if you don't want to be in that business, that that factory doesn't have to be a fact. I mean, like, I'm in my studio right now, it's hard to tell, but like I could just be in here today, vibing out, make a sick song that's just like about my feelings and whatever I want that feels good. If this is my goal, if I was if I was trying to accomplish the goal that we set forth, then once I'm done with it, I can just use these tools to help me figure out how to sell it. And it's like that's how that's gonna work right now. There's gonna be a brief window. Well, that will work because it's gonna get oversaturated because it's gonna be too easy for everyone to replicate. And then we don't know what's gonna happen because we don't know what the response will be. We don't know how people will feel about that sort of music. This like remixed, clearly overmarketed, targeted genre music that's sort of like background-y, vibey, you know what I mean? Like the lo-fi beats scene got so oversaturated for that exact reason.

And now with AI, they'll start doing it with every genre. So it's like that's how you could do that. If you never wanted to leave your house and you never wanted to stop making the music you want to make, you just make the music you want to make and let AI make the music you don't want to make, but you own it because it's your songs that you wrote. So you own the publishing, you own the masters because you generate it from your own material, right? Would you draft it as an under like a new artist entity, or would you have a bunch of versions under your artist name? I mean, you can fucking do anything you want. It's so fucked up, but like you can do anything that you want. So, like, yeah, so like you could take it as long as you own it, right? And we're already seeing this. This is already happening. The the in my opinion, the worst of the worst is that they're taking people are doing this of other people's music, and that's just like pure theft. But if you're doing this with your own work, like get your bag. You've been an independent musician, you've been writing your songs, you've been getting fucked forever. Like, guess what?

You don't need all that stuff you used to need. Now you can like do it yourself. You can still make the music you want to make, it's about perspective, it's about business acumen, and it's about execution, right? And like you can go out and you can build whatever you want, it's just about your goals. So, like, that's how you could approach that. It will work for some people and then it will stop working because it will be oversaturated. Yeah. That's my hunch. I think I think too many artists that I speak with, they kind of generalize the path that artists take, right? I think a lot of people look at like the standard artist journey as far as like you make songs, you release them to streaming, you go on tour, you sell merch. Yeah, right? Like there's just kind of all these kind of record deal. Yeah, there's just all these things that are just kind of like boxes being checked, but then I mean, shit, we have someone who, you know, like like freaking uh Jay Will, right? Um, he's a sync expert, right?

And it's like he would tell you you don't ever have to release a song ever. And you can just get a bag from placing your songs in sync libraries and with sync agents that are getting your shit in music, film, and or sorry, you know, video games, film, television, etc. So I think, man, it's it's so hard to say it this way because it sounds unhelpful, even though it actually is the most helpful thing that we can say, as far as like really identifying like what do you want, right? Explore the options. I mean, you don't even know how do you choose what you want to do if you don't even know what all is out there? True. That's so key. Like educate yourself first and then choose what you what makes you feel good. Like so, are you more of a generalist? Because we've had a lot of people on here that are like ads gurus that are like YouTube ads gurus, Spotify ads gurus, their content, you know, strategists, they're uh sync experts, whatever. Like, would you consider yourself more of a generalist in that sense? Or are you do you like to focus on like one thing mostly?

I've always been a generalist, but I definitely have specializations within that. For example, like um, I'm a songwriter, I'm a producer, I play a lot of instruments, but I can also run really good ads. I can also code and build my own websites. I can also, whatever, right? I can make videos and premiere, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think the reality is anybody who's a musician nowadays pretty much has to be a generalist. But then, yeah, you find your specialty or whatever. But I think specializations are that's actually a really interesting topic. I don't know what's gonna happen to specializations because the technology is gonna like beat out a lot of specialists in a lot of ways. You know, how terrified are you? Dude, Zach is like he's partly depressing me, but he's also like waking me up to just like I'm like I'm in this shit, like trying to learn because I don't want to be in a situation where I'm just like at the at the mercy of like how things are changing. That's just not my style.

I'm like, I'm gonna stay on top of it. Yeah, so I'm learning how this stuff works so I can figure out how to survive and how to have the life that I want to have and all that. I think that this technology can be whatever way that you want to let it be, right? Like, if you want to let it run you over, it's gonna run you over. If you want to like stay in front of it and pick up the skills that are relevant to you so that you can do the things you want. If you want to be a specialist, you can probably find a way to do that. But I do think that it requires adaptability. I do think that it's gonna require like the rate at which things are changing, it's gonna happen fast. So we're all gonna need to figure out how to how to like ebb and flow with it. Like be the ocean. Yeah. So uh a legendary music executive, Mike Karen, who's head of APG, um, he he posted something to his story recently that was like talking about, you know, there's a lot of misinformation uh on social media when it comes to the music business, music marketing, right? There's a lot of people out there that are talking and what they're saying just isn't facts, right?

And it's just it's misguiding artists, right? Where do you think a lot of like music marketing gurus are getting it wrong? Like, is there something you kind of hear a lot where you're like that just is not helping our artist community? Because I feel like you're just so artist-friendly and like artists first, like being a musician and an artist yourself. You, you know, you and kind of like Andrew Southworth have that, you know, in in common where like you both actually make music too, you're not just on the marketing side. So is there something that you like see or hear a lot where you're like common misconceptions? Yeah, like that is not good advice for our artist community. Well, the first thing I want to say is fucking shout out Andrew. I love that dude. His work is so great, such a nice dude. Yes, so great. Um we love Andrew. I've learned a lot from him, we've had talks, we're in the same space. Just love and respect to that dude. He rules. Oh yes. Secondly, I think the thing that I would look out for as a musician is anytime somebody tells me I need to do something, and I've done this, I've made this mistake myself, immediately I'm turned off. Like you don't need to do anything, you can do anything that you want.

So, like that's the first thing because all er all of us are are operating. I don't think that there's there's I think that there's some people who have bad intentions, maybe, but for the most part, people are trying to help and trying to figure out how to survive or whatever. And I think that when people say you need to do something, that's a little misleading because you can do anything and there's a lot of options. So that's the first thing I would look out for as like a flag of like maybe this isn't the right thing. Or maybe I would like reinterpret it and say, I don't need to, like, you could consider this as a potential approach because it depends on your goals. And the reality is people's goals are so vastly different. I've worked with so many artists at this point, and it's just mind-boggling, and seeing their goals change over the course of a single workshop is very enlightening. And so I think the thing that's really important is to just look out for once again, like what is it that I want first? And then when somebody's telling me something and giving me advice, focus on the actionable information, and then evaluate whether or not that's actually relevant to me and my goals rather than like, oh, I need to go do this thing, like you don't have to do shit.

You know what I'm saying? It's tough because, like, as someone who's cutting up, you know, a lot of the most of all the clips from these shows, it's like we're coming up with title text that gotta hit hard and grab people's attention immediately. I can't, we can't put no maybe you might consider this tactic based on your goals, like that. No one's gonna watch it, you know. It's tough, but it's like you need to do this now, it might create some urgency and get some attention. But I also obviously don't want to be misleading people For sure. the issue I see with like that approach though, is yes, you're right. Artists don't need to do anything that anybody on the internet suggests or in real life suggests, but they need to do something, but well, yes, okay, we can't just like because even in your scenario, like we can't just go to the studio and make the music and do nothing with it, okay? Like, we can't do that. We at least but you could. Well, you know, you could, you're right, okay. But like, we we are not in the business of necessarily helping hobbyists, you're gonna have to go to your job tomorrow. Yeah, you're going to have to clock in to whatever job you hate or whatever.

Maybe you don't hate it, who knows? But I think a big part of what I just really want our artist community to you know consider. I'm trying to try to take Zach's uh approach here, like that. I'd really like them to consider. It was good. God damn it. The expectations that they have, though, based on whatever plan of attack they agree to, Managing expectations, yes. Because if we want if we want to get booked for shows, there are some things you should consider doing to optimize your success to get booked for shows, right? Yeah, so if you do not consider doing those things, you're killing it, man. You likely will not see the results that you desire as far as booking shows, right? So that's all I just want to make sure, yes, and this is something you and I talk about all the time. It's like, man, I don't want to come across as like he's fucking holier than thou.

Yeah, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. And we do feel like that sometimes, and it's it's all out of love to your point. I don't think we're coming at it from a bad place. I don't think the majority of like people you see clips from online, I don't think they're coming at it from a bad place either. But you know, it's like it still does sometimes come across like that. And I we hate that, we don't want to be those guys. Yeah, I blame clickbait culture. Well, yeah, it's it's it's I mean, you're not wrong. So, you know, speaking of, let's kind of segue into content, right? If an artist does have a goal of growing on social media, can you talk about some of like the trends or like just your philosophy around content marketing, right? Because I know you do ads, but I know you've also you know made your own content about content marketing, right? For artists. So like I don't know, I I think you debunk some myth about like just post more or something, and like how that's obviously a terrible fucking piece of advice. We would agree to that.

Yeah, but you know, what are some tips or uh recommendations you might make or like things you want artists to consider when it comes to the content marketing? Because I think that's like the most that they hear probably. They hear all the time like you gotta be on social media, you gotta post, you gotta make more content, content, content, content. It's like we even get fucking sick of ourselves saying the word. Joke about it. Yeah, saying the word content. But where do you sit when it comes to content marketing and and how you think they can best utilize it as a tool? Yeah. So I just actually launched a course that's up on my website that's about this. Like it's called Instagram. Uh yeah, Instagram doesn't have to suck. That's great. I love it, man. Yeah, it's just literally that. Like, this is how Instagram works, and this is how you can use it towards whatever your goal is, right? So at the beginning, of course, number one, what's your goal with using Instagram in the first place? Is the goal to get booked? Is the goal to just grow your numbers? Is the goal to blow up your music? It depends on your goal.

Then it's like demonstrate the thing that you're trying to do. So you want to be a songwriter, for example. Literally just make content of you writing songs and share it. Yeah. Um you want to be a performer. You gotta have performance content. So, like figure out what you want and then make that the focus of your content and experiment around it until you find something that works, and then be fucking consistent. And it's kind of that simple. Like, that's how I built my entire company. That's probably how you guys did too. That's how most people who have blown up on social media in the past, I don't know, five, six years, have basically just been doing that. I call it shotgun content. The idea is that it's like you have a very consistent, immediately identify identifiable style of content that you make. It's just you doing the thing that you want to be doing in the first place, and you just are super fucking consistent with it. And it's like if that works, lean in.

If it doesn't work, keep experimenting until you find something that does. Yeah. So like at the end of the day, it there's it is kind of that simple. And I think one of the challenges that it doesn't work for some people because whatever they're doing just isn't hitting. And the only solution for that is try something else, or maybe social media is not the right tool, and that's okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, but you know, when something hits, it hits more of it and do it better. Yeah, no, facts. Something that you just said that like our friend Sabrina uh sides, right? Um, she is a is a friend of ours, was on the podcast. Go check her episode out, maybe we'll put it right here. Um, she says something. I I think her quote is post for your goals, not for views. Yes, right. And it's kind of what you were basically saying that, right? And it goes back to like her goal as a content creator was very simple. It was she wanted to work with music tech companies. That was it.

Oh, you know what you're talking about. Yep. Yep. She's the logic pro. She's about five, she's about five feet tall. She's about yay high. You can't tell the content. I know. She's about yay high. Um, she's giving you a logic pro tip. Here's a cool logic pro tip. Well, because and and the reason why she did that whole format, which clearly worked to your point, and she doubled down on it, made it better and better and better, was because she wanted to work with Apple. So how what better way to work with Apple than to get their attention by giving you know their target customer, Logic Pro users, tips on how to use Logic Pro better? But if your goal to your point is to perform, if your goal is to get streams, if your goal is to, you know, become an influencer, right? In addition to your artist career, you need to just identify what that is, and then just to your point, try so many different versions of it, right? Because yeah, like the amount of times we see artists come to us and they're like, yo, I'm just not like it's just not hitting on social media, like I'm about to give up on Instagram or give up on TikTok, and we like look at their content, they're not mixing it up enough, right? They're not trying different things.

So yeah, if something has not worked before, it's kind of insane to think that it's like after 10, 20, 30 times is gonna just magically take off as a format, right? Um, so that I think that should be encouraging. It's sometimes discouraging because like I don't know. I just look at it like the faster I can get to a no, is the quicker I'm gonna eventually get to a yes. So it's kind of like the same thing on social media. It's like the more flops we have, we're gonna finally like find something that works, you know what I mean? Yeah, it might take us a hundred times. Um, but there's just been so many artists come on here, or like that we've seen clips of talking about the fact that, like, dude, they're like hundredth video about a song went viral or something, right? And if they would have stopped at video 99, they would have not had a career, or like it would have taken them another year, another five years, whatever you know, timeline where they would, you know, they would have been on. So I don't know. I I love the consistency side of it. They hear it all the time, but it's still nice to reinforce, I would say, right? Um, but so okay, moving into kind of ads, right?

Like we've had a bunch of ads people on here. I still feel like the jury's out in a lot of our communities' minds on like how to best utilize ads, do they work? Are they worth it? Right. So, like to a skeptic, right? To an artist who's very skeptical about using ads, like what's your elevator pitch for like why they work or how they could benefit from using ads. And maybe what type of artists' goals align with ads with running ads. Yeah. Great questions. I mean, ads are just a tool to reach people, it's automated reach. So what what are you trying to accomplish with your content or whatever? And then, like, how do you use the ad to do that? So, are you trying to get streams? Are you trying to sell tickets to shows? Are you trying to sell merchandise? If you're, for example, trying to sell merchandise and nobody knows who you are, advertising your merchandise is not gonna work. If you're trying to sell, basically, if you're trying to sell anything that costs money and nobody knows who you are, and you haven't built any trust or faith in you or interest in what you're doing, it's gonna be hard to sell. So then what is the ads journey, right?

If I'm an emerging artist and I want to trust Zach with like building my whole trajectory as far as like no one knows who I am or my music, to I'm selling merch and selling tickets and selling like hard cost items. Like, you know, how should I be using ads in the beginning? And how does that ads journey evolve? Yeah, that's a good question. I would start. I mean, you know, like, okay, so say I'm I'm an artist, I want to, yeah, I want to tour and sell merchandise and like put out records and stuff. And I want to sell them. So if selling those records is the goal, yeah, you start with building like an interested audience. You know what I mean? So the first thing that you're gonna do is share your work, hopefully organically. In my opinion, it's always gonna be better. I wouldn't go to ads at first. Ads are only when you want a conversion. That's my opinion. Um, I would never make an ad unless I was trying to convert to something else. And if I'm just trying to build interest, social media is free. Like, oh, it's not free, you're giving up your personal information.

But like, that's the exchange is like you give that up in exchange for the opportunity to reach an audience with your content. So if you want to make that trade, you do it. And you can build a fucking massive audience for free. That's what you and I have done. Um, and then you can run ads to sell whatever you want. So I've created my audience the entire time. The tagline has been music marketing doesn't have to suck. Actually, it kind of wasn't at first. I had to experiment with some content to figure out what worked, and then that became the tagline, and we went from there. Once that became clear, it was like, okay, now I know that this is the focus of this project. We're talking about music marketing for independent musicians. What do they want? They a lot of them want to figure out how to get their music heard. What's the easiest way to do that? Streaming. It turns out it's really easy to sell streams through advertising because it doesn't cost the viewer anything. So if like if I'm trying to get people to convert to Spotify streams, they're like, what's the harm in clicking a button and listening to a song?

Right. So that's a very easy sell for an ad. So those are ads that you can start doing early on that can help build your audience that doesn't ask very much of them. And that can be super effective. Um, but that just requires having good music and knowing how to target it. And money. Oh yeah, and money and and the money but dude, even that is crazy. Like you like the cost of reaching a thousand people in India, you need like a dollar, not even that's like that's like 10,000 people, right? And guess what? There's a massive market for like sick music in India because there's tons of people there that love music. So it's like, and in fact, I've had people in my courses and workshops who are based in India and they're awesome. Um, one of the biggest ads platforms that I know about, Meg at Symphony, he's an Indian dude. So it's like, hell yeah, this rules like you can reach anybody in the world using advertising or using social media either for free by putting in your time or by paying for advertising. So you can kind of choose how you want to go about it.

And I would be that's where I would start. That's the easiest, cheapest way to get meaningful conversions early in your career. Okay, so we're gonna start with organic content and building some level of interested audience. Yep. we're gonna then try to do stream conversion campaigns where the the cost to the viewer is next to nothing. They might pay for a Spotify subscription, they already have already paid for it, it's a sunk cost, they're clicking easy peasy. Then we're moving into the the higher ticket, like merch tour, like tickets to a show, things like that. Yeah, that stuff's way harder, man. Like the reality is if you want to sell something that doesn't have utilitarian value to people, meaning like they don't need it. Like I hate to say this, but like my record. I mean, look, there, there's my record. That's my record that I made and didn't sell. And that's why it's sitting there.

So it's like it's way harder for me to sell that record than it is for me to sell a course that helps people figure out how to market their own music. That's the reality. It's like if I can sell something that people actually want, it just makes it easier to sell. If I want to sell that record, if that's my goal, I'm gonna spend my time focusing my content around educational value and build trust and interest around what it is I have to say. And then it makes it a lot easier when I'm like, hey, I actually have something to sell now, whether it's my service or whether it's a course or whether it's whatever. Some people are gonna sell their agency services, you know what I mean? It just depends. Um, so that's what I would that's kind of how I would approach it. But unless you have an interested audience, you're not gonna sell anything. You know what I mean? And selling records is hard because nobody needs them, and it's just the way that things are. It's like you have the an every recorded piece of music ever right here for 10 bucks. Why do I want to spend 30 bucks on my record?

Yeah, like that's what I had to learn the hard way by producing it and finding out that nobody was gonna buy it. It doesn't bother me. It's not person, it's not personal. It's like, you know, yeah, it is what it is. And I can sell whatever I want, but I think it was Andrew that pointed out like it's really only like when you hit the superstar level that you start running ads for things, and it's yeah, and they're and they don't need to run ads for their music because everyone, they're superstars, everyone knows they're releasing you don't see an ad for like Taylor Swift's new album. Yeah, no, you see like buy the vinyl concert tickets or packet bundle package or something. So right, yeah. Most people we're talking to are probably gonna be focused, I guess, on the streaming conversions. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like in an in a marketing traditional sense, there would be like awareness, traffic, conversions, sales, you know what I mean? And there's a funnel. So it's like you need to get you need to start at the top where you're just like nobody knows who the fuck you are. Don't start selling them your record.

It's like those guys on the streets shoving CDs in your hands and expecting you to hand them $20. The only reason that you're giving them $20 is to leave you the fuck alone. So they go away. Yeah. Well, see, and hustling their music. And see that's robbing you. That's the big problem, though, with I think a lot of artists' content is that Instagram and these platforms, they're not showing your content just to the people who know you. They're showing it oftentimes more so to the people who don't fucking know you. Yeah. So the second that you're talking about my new songs out, go stream my song. It's the same as a guy coming up, you know, asking for money that you don't know. And it's just it's not good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I every time I get a DM from somebody, unless I know them, and I get them all the time, like, yo, check out my new song. And I know it's not like like nothing but love, like respect to you for making your music. I love you, but like I'm not gonna listen to it. And it's not personal, it's just not a good look. Yeah, it's just the way that it is.

There's too many people doing that, and it doesn't work. Like you have to have something to offer. And if you can create something compelling and interesting, and your music absolutely could be something to offer, but it's about how you present it, you know what I mean? Like, if you can present it in a way that's actually interesting, people will be interested. If the music's good and your approach is like thoughtful, that goes a long way. For the love of God, stop sending just links to your music. Like it's like it's never gonna work, dude. It's never gonna work in any capacity, but it sure as hell is not gonna work without any other words. I'm talking just straight YouTube link, just straight Spotify link. No one is clicking on that. Like I can guarantee you, I will I will pay you money if someone tells you that they clicked on your song with no words, no hello, hi, how are you doing? Check out my new song, even like they're not gonna do it even if you ask nicely, but they're sure as hell not gonna do it if it's just a straight link, yes. Like, oh my gosh, it is again we recommend people make every piece of content with the assumption that everyone that sees it has no idea who you are.

Just assume nobody knows it. It's kind of the 80-20 rule, I would say. You yeah, you know, cause we do have to have some of that like community building conversion, you know. Like there are gonna be some people that know us who like growing and we're trying we're interested in growing and expanding. I totally agree that the majority, the vast majority of you're a developing artist, does need to be because even even an artist like Nic D who has five million monthlies, he still has an approach that is like assuming the viewer is literally just he says that it's just like taking a shit, right? And it's just scrolling. You have well, not even, but five seconds. Well, the person has five minutes, your post has five seconds, yeah. Exactly. You're lucky, yeah, exactly. I mean, the joke I make the joke I make is like there's grower content and there's shower content. Oh shit. You gotta figure out like, are you trying to grow with this or are you trying to just share with your existing audience? And it's like there's different tools, reels, for example, that's growth content, and like stories is for showing your existing audience. So, like what you put in your stories shouldn't be discovery content.

It's like, hey, you're this is somebody who's already chosen to follow you or engage with you on a deeper level, right? So then you can get into more interesting, like like this is my community now. Whereas, yeah, if you're putting out reels, absolutely, you know, and it's different the bigger you get, you have to be a little more aware. You guys know this. So it's like, but at the end of the day, yeah, it's like what's your what's your goal? Are you trying to grow? If you're trying to grow, absolutely behave like people don't know who you are, put it out, and you can like continue bringing new people in. Yeah. The are you a shower or a grower? It's a crazy music marketing question? That's my like that's literally like what the course is about is how to identify these different like it's you know, have fun with it. Cause like this is all a game anyway, right? So, like what game do you want to play? What's fun, what's interesting to you? And if growing a big audience is fun and interesting, it's not rocket science. You just have to identify what it is that you do that people resonate with and not be afraid to share it. Like, there's some really cringy accounts out there that are massive, right?

Like, it's insane. There's people that resonate with everything. Like you can pick just about anything. Anything, yeah. And like, like I like watching people open baseball carts, like that's my weird niche fetish on TikTok, right? And I'd be like watching some old man like in his garage opening up a pack of baseball cards from the eighties, and I'm like, yeah, it's like whatever you want to do, man, it's all good. Yeah, so I I think something that I even struggle with when when artists come to me and ask, like, hey, like what platforms should I be on, right? Because uh a lot of times they're like, should I be leaning into Instagram more, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube, Snapchat, right? Like, what's your philosophy on just like what are, you know, like what are each platform good for, right? Like, how should I make the decision? Because you know, if I'm a if I'm a developing act, like I don't necessarily have the time to be active on all of them, right? So I do think there needs to be some sort of conscious decision on like, hey, if you're not gonna really go in on Twitter, like maybe just don't invest anything into it right now.

I don't know. What's your philosophy on like which social media platforms to use and why? So my approach was just pick one and just do that well because yeah, it's too hard. If you do a bunch of them crappy, then like whatever. But like if you do one really well, you know what I mean? Like a lot of people, well, a lot of people are just like, I'm just gonna blast all my shit all over the place, and it's just a fucking mess, and none of it's working, they don't know why, their head's spinning, they're overthinking everything. And it's like if you can figure out, okay, once again, get your goal, okay. You're trying to grow. If you want the biggest potential audience, Meta. Like, that's by far the biggest. I don't know if you guys saw this, I just put it on my story, but Threads is now almost at the level of Twitter in monthly active users. Woah. Woah. That's insane. So that's Meta now owns that sphere. They own they've ripped off TikTok, so they own that. They've got social, they've got the biggest ads plat. It's just so big.

So to me, I was like, I'm just gonna use Instagram because it's what I know, and there's I don't know, only 5 billion people on it. I'm never gonna run out of potential audience. It's more like, and as long as there's a hundred million people on the platform, you're gonna be fine. You're never gonna exhaust your potential. So, like, pick one that you like to use, pick one that you feel like good about and just focus on it for a while. That's my personal suggestion and see what happens and like experiment with that, and then you can really like get good at it. And if you want to expand later, you can. Um, that's my personal approach. Yeah, but but do you see them being good for different things? Like, if I did have all the time in the world to like really go in on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube, like, do you see them playing different roles in the whole like marketing ecosystem for an artist? If I have a younger audience, should I be on TikTok? Yeah, if if I'm good at this, I should be on TikTok on this.

You know what I mean? Like, is there any kind of thing that you see? Yeah, I mean, I think there's trends. I just it literally ignore them. And I'm probably the only marketing person who will just say that straight up. So I don't care. There's still 5 billion people, like doesn't matter. Like, yeah, there's plenty of young people on all of them. So it's like it just depends. It depends on your scale, too. I think if you're if you're Taylor Swift, those decisions matter more, right? But if you're me, nobody's fucking heard of me anyway. So it's like I can market my music on TikTok and have it blow up, or I can market my music on threads and have it blow up. Like any of them can work if you're doing it right because there's so many people that are there that are invested in that community. And once you start building traction, that's what matters. Like you can have a super invested super fandom, right? That only requires maybe like 2,000, 5,000 people. It used to be a thousand, but things are different now. So if you can get 5,000 super invested people in what you're doing, you can build a career.

You just gotta get smart. So it's like you can absolutely find those 5,000 people on Reddit. You don't even have to be on social media. You know what I'm saying? That's my personal belief. And I think that I think that that's held true. I think that there are so many examples of that. We've seen rappers blow up on SoundCloud, I've seen EDM people blow up on Beatport. There's you know what I mean? It doesn't matter. Pick your platform and lean in, and you've got it. If you if you do it right, you've got it. But if you do all of them poorly, you get nowhere. So that's my personal take. And I'm I know that a lot of people will kind of have different thoughts on that, and that's cool, but that's my approach. Well, I think the thing that a lot of once again, like gurus say like, what if those platforms cease to exist tomorrow? Right. I think there's a damn good shot that Meta is not going anywhere, right? I just I genuinely believe that. Um, but you know, there's isn't there like new ramblings of TikTok again being banned in September or something? I don't know.

I saw that. That's Trump's trying to like sell it, right? Sell it or whoa. that's why I don't fuck with it. Is I'm just like, I know this platform would work, but I'm just I don't want to deal with it because it's politically a risk, and I just don't want to have that, I don't want to care. Yeah. So I'm just like, I literally invest nothing into TikTok personally because it's just been a big question mark since I started this project, which is only a year old, year and change old. So I was like, whatever. I'm just not even gonna fuck with it. I'll just repost some things there if I have time. And it's not that I don't care about those people, it's that I can't, you know what I mean? Like I can't give all my energy to everyone, so I have to choose. Yeah. So like that's what I suggest to artists. And yes, if one of those platforms go away and it happens to be the one that you're on, that sucks. And it's a real thing, and you do have to have a plan. Um, and that's why, like, but if you don't have an audience, you don't need a plan, you know. what I'm saying? So don't start with your big plan. Like, start with just trying to build an audience.

You can figure it out. You know what I mean? And if people are really into you, they're gonna find you. They're gonna show up at your house with a fucking, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's weird. So, and it's a problem, actually. You know what I mean? So, like, so, like, it yeah, like it's I just I just think there's so many options. I think we live in a very democratic space in terms of like reach and in terms of potential. And I think that that is people feel like they don't have the opportunity that I think there's a sense that what was promised isn't available, and I don't buy that. I'm like, no, it's out there. You just gotta you gotta be real with yourself and you gotta put in some work to figure out where you fit into that ecosystem. Like, not everyone's fucking Michael Jordan, you know what I mean? Like, maybe you're not Michael Jordan, and that's okay. I'm not Michael Jordan, I'm having a great time, you know what I'm saying? So, like you can still be in the NBA without being the best fucking player, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, like it's all good.

So so then you don't really think that, like, you know, because a lot of people say, like, music discovery is happening on TikTok. Like, do you I mean you just don't buy it? Well, I know that it's happening on Instagram because I've been doing it for so long, right? So, like I run all my ads on Instagram, so I'm not saying it's more than TikTok, I just know what's happening because that's been my whole world for so long. You see the results of the campaign right there. It's happening. Like I could just show them to you, and it's just happening, and I have over a thousand students who've done this with me and have shared data in our community, so it's just like we have all the data, it's not even a question. Yeah, um, and we also know that these same ads don't work as well on TikTok for whatever reason, so I won't fucking waste my time. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, but there's a different way that music blows up on TikTok that's different, and it absolutely also works. So it's that's why I'm just like it's a choice. And I think music discovery happens in many different ways in many different communities, and then there's like weird-niche, like localized stuff too. Like in my community, there's such a strong music scene.

I mean, I'm in LA, right? So you have so many people coming here. There's a hundred shows every night of some of the best acts you'll ever see. And that's all happening live. And like they're not on social media, they don't have any streams, and they're some of the best musicians I've ever seen, and they have a dedicated following that believes in them, and that's worth a lot more than a lot of people's 10,000 followers or whatever. So it just kind of like once again, what's your goal? You want to blow up on the internet? Cool. You want to blow up in your local scene? Cool. Like, start with that, you know. Yeah, I think it kind of goes back to like the trying things though, like especially early on, because like maybe you aren't a big TikTok user, but maybe your music or the type of content you make that you post on TikTok, maybe it will work there, right? So I would say, unless you're seeing like a ton of success with the first platform that you decided to use, right? Let's say you really wanted to lean into Instagram and you start crushing it to your point. By all means, double down, go for it.

I don't think meta's going anywhere. Instagram's gonna be around for a while. But I do think that like if you're not seeing success, maybe give Twitter a shot. Maybe you start becoming really good with words and you're able to like build an audience and like build some intrigue and and you know, interest on that platform or Snapchat. Maybe you're really good at like that kind of day in the life, like vloggy, you know, like time-sensitive type of content. And who knows, maybe that starts to work. So I think it's more uh I really like your approach just about like trying different things and then doubling down when you start to see something that's a little bit like of an outlier as far as a good outlier, meaning it's working better than anything you've ever tried or done before. You know what I mean? Yeah, well, like a great example is like comparing the trajectory of Magic Nothing versus Andrew Southworth, right? Like Andrew built his platform and his educational connection and his whole clientele on YouTube. Yeah.

And a lot of where Magic Nothing came from, this was accidental. I wasn't trying to do this, was sharing a lot of the exact same information on Instagram. It's the same information. And we've even talked about this. And we're just like, yeah, it's the same shit. And it's like it's just on a different platform and it's to a different market. We speak to different people just because of our inherent brand of like what we're like. Oh, you're what I mean. Like you could not be two different, two more different people, even though you might be right literally saying the same words. Exactly. It's so different, dude. Like that this is why I know brand is a thing. Like, this is why I just I'm like visually seeing, like, even when I was looking at your like Spotify, you know, conversion campaign, like information, it's just so different than Andrew. And like I love Andrew to death. We studied Andrew and we were trying to figure out the same shit for like his own music and then like you know, artists that we were working with directly. And it's like, dude, it could not be further from the like same, you know. Yeah, and it's like that I'm not saying anything different, and he's not saying anything different than other people who are, you know what I mean?

There's there's there's thousands of people that are all saying the same thing, but because the internet is such bubbly niche world, yeah, nobody even sees it because so many people are gonna see Andrew and be like, no, and it's like yeah, I don't even know what he said yet. But that's just how it works because that's the nature of the beast. So, yeah, I mean, you and to your point, yeah, you never know where your connection is gonna be made, and like so, so yeah, experiment until you find something that works for you. And actually, like I've seen that he's been now working on threads, and I'm like, hell yeah, get it. Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, like I don't know. Yeah, you get it, man. Yeah, you know, and I'm aware of it, and I'm just it's just funny. And like, you know, and I think you guys talked to Ryan. Didn't we meet through Ryan? Yeah, yeah, Ryan Schmidt. Yeah, so me and him came up on Instagram at the same time, and just immediately we're like, oh, sick, like you're doing this thing too, like, hell yeah. And we became friends, and like I see him on threads, and I'm just sort of like, I don't have time for threads right now because I'm working on other shit, but I've thought about it. He's crushing threads too.

Yeah, dude. I mean, I know that's actually where I started before Instagram, and then my Instagram videos just took off, and I was like, oh, okay. Like, you see the numbers when you learn how to read the metrics, you do have to learn how to read the metrics if you want to optimize the stuff. But when you see a couple of shares and a couple of saves, you're like, I'm onto something, you know what I mean? Absolutely. Then you just lean in. Zach, we've entered a final segment of the podcast, my friend. Is it time? He just makes me feel like more like comfortable about the music industry though, even though you scared the fuck out of me with some of that first stuff. Yeah, you should have done those parts in reverse. I know, but then yeah, but then a lot of it was like, oh yeah, I can just like do whatever the fuck I want, you know. Well, well, Zach, this is the rapid fire rampage, it's gonna be a three-part rampage. I'll explain them as we go. Let's start off with some short answer questions. Rapid. Starting off on a scale of one to ten, how would you rate Ben as an interviewer? Ten, yes, suck it, Henry.

I wanted a 10. What do you mean? I was rooting for you on that one. Yeah, thanks, man. Yeah. Zach, what would you point to as the three biggest factors? We kind of touched on this as we we've touched on a couple of these throughout the episode, but we like getting them in, you know, nice concise clip form. What would you point to as the three biggest factors that helped you grow your brand? Intention, uh joy, and consistency. Yes. Joy. Joy's a big one. The most underrated thing every artist needs to hear. It's a big one, man. If you are not happy doing this shit, reconsider, please. Tough road for sure. Zach, you have just been appointed supreme leader of the music industry with unlimited power to change anything that you want at your fingertips. What is your first order of business? Take a nap. Finally, some time off. Do whatever I want. Yeah. Taking a nap. I'll get around to helping you artists in a little bit.

Give me a power. nap at least. I'll fix the industry tomorrow. Nap. Yeah. I like it. What traits differentiate an artist who is hard to market versus an artist that is easy to market? Good question, Henry. Thank you. They know what they want. Intention, goals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just that. That's it. That's what they gotta know. It's self-awareness. You know what's so annoying? You know what's so annoying is that like there's no sexy episode title for this whole like topic. Well, we're going with music marketing, doesn't it? I know, but I just mean like it just it's just reiterating how unsexy that piece of all of this is. Yeah. But it is. 100%. It sounds so like ethereal and spiritual, but it's like it's it is everything. It really is. It's basic, dude. It is basic. Yeah. You gotta start with that. Fuck. What is the most overrated marketing strategy? Everything. All of it. Yeah, all of it. All of it.

It doesn't, none of it matters unless it matters to you. So it's back to it, Henry. Indeed. It's very circular right now. It is. You're going back. This one is a more like clean cut. He's got to spend $5,000 to roll out his next single. How is he spending it? $5,000 to roll out my next single. That's right. Yeah. One more time, just invested in you, man. We took 100% of your masters, but that's fine. We gave you 5,000 though. Give you an advance. I'm lazy as fuck, and I'm already doing it. I just have a playlist campaign going in the background, and I don't do anything. I release a new song, I add it to the playlist, and I move on with my life because I got other things to do. And it just grows the song. So you're just putting all $5,000 into the playlist. Wow. There it is. Artists, don't do this. I mean, maybe it's better than nothing. No, the whole playlist thing is like a is a is a gem. Like that whole approach.

Oh, man. No, that whole approach is good, but just you know, it's this is what he's doing. I know he's already built the playlist, so it's a little unfair. Right. Uh, last one of the short answers, Zach. What is your favorite curse word? Tits. I think that's the first. First tits we've had. I'm so happy, Zach. That's Great. Came in clutch. Wow. We've had probably 10, 15 different answers to that, but that is tits is a first. That was fantastic. Way to wrap up part one. Moving on into part two. It is the this or that. Zach. I'm gonna give you two choices that you just have to pick one of them. Starting with organic growth or paid ads? Organic. Drums or melodies. Melodies. Drums or flats. Drums. Instagram or TikTok. Instagram. Okay. Like I said, a couple of these were written pre this discussion, obviously. Um gut feeling or backed by data.

Gut feeling. Grammy or Billboard number one. Neither. Ooh. Zach hates money. Zach hates popularity and money. It's all good. It's all good. Burnout or boredom. Oh. Oh, that's so good. Burnout for me. Catchy chorus or standout brand. Catchy chorus. Banger or ballad. Banger. Early access drop or surprise release. Surprise release. And finally, become a full-time metal singer or leave the music industry forever. Oh, full-time metal singer for sure. Hell yeah. Just got to set up that metal playlist. Get it going, baby. Last part is the word association. Zach, I'm going to say one word. You just have to give me the first word that you think of off the top of your head. There are no correct answers. You are only judged on speed. Rampart! Starting with music.

Fart. Were you going to say fart no matter what the word was? Okay. Just making sure. Just making sure. It's fine. Oh man. Content. No. Noodle. Yes. Spotify. Yay. Mosquito. No. Ads? Why not? Podcast. Eh. Oh man. I hope that's not directed at this one. This specific episode, man. Let's not get into let's not get into why. I thought there was no judgment. I didn't say no judgment. I just said there are no correct answers. We are allowed to judge you for sure. I thought I was judging on my speed. That was pretty quick. Yeah, well that yeah, judged on speed. If you answer too quickly, we also judge you. Alabama. Alligator. Brand.

Fart. Gold. Silver. Viral. Content. Unicorn. Horse. AI. Mushy. Music marketing. Doesn't have to suck. Let's go. What an episode. Oh man, we're gonna link Magic Nothing community in the description. Yes. Get your Instagram doesn't have to suck course. Yes. Whatever else Zach has to provide all you artists. I appreciate you coming on the podcast, man. Really enjoyed it. Yes. Thanks for having me. From like a philosophical perspective, I hope that helped. At least. Like, you know, like some of the tactics, it's like he needs to know what your goals are, so I get it. Yeah. But at least like starting there is just something everyone has to take away. I feel like. There you go. Appreciate you coming on, man. Until next time, what are we doing? Getting out of here. Peace.