The Truth About Hit Records w/ Platinum Songwriter & Grammy-Winning A&R Tab Nkhereanye

You wrote on Bieber's first single. Mm-hmm. Did you know at the time that he was gonna be? A thousand percent I did. You've been a part of 15 number one hits. Is there a formula? Can you stick the microphone out to the crowd and can they sing you back the lyrics? How do you know when a song is done? Feel. If it moves you and you hear it again, you listen to it again, you're like, okay, we're ready to go. What do you think the most important part of a song is? Opening lines are key. Your four bars have to be like, okay, I need to listen to the next four bars. Someone you passed on, maybe it didn't sign. Ooh. I've never said this to anybody. Um Tab and Nkhereanye is not guessing when he talks about hits. This songwriter turned AR is behind over 15 number ones and helped launch icons like Frank Ocean and Alessia Cara. He even wrote The Biebs' first hit single.

It's called One Time. Go check it out. After the episode, of course. Now, as a Grammy winning AR at BMG, widely considered the fourth major, he's signing legends like The Dream and Brian Michael Cox. In this episode, we unpack the strategies, the science, the magic, and the brutal truths that separate a good song from a career-defining one. If you want to understand the truth behind hit records, this is where you start. And now for the full conversation with Tab and Nkhereanye. I can't believe your first two signings here in Atlanta have been The Dream and Brian Michael Cox. That's insane. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What is the conversation like with the dream, right? Try trying to sign the dream as a songwriter. I mean, he and I go back years, like we've been rocking since before he was the dream. The dream. Yeah. Yeah. So um kind of when I I went into recorded music side, so I kind of went that way. And when I came back to music publishing and coming to BMG, um he was getting out of his deal at another publishing company. You swooped, right?

It's almost like you have to sign with me. We're family, We're like what are you talking about? He was like, damn it. You have no choice. But I did have to cut a big check. Sure. How big? How big? I can't say how big, but it was big. But you know what I will say? He recouped it all immediately. I mean, not immediately, but but quickly. I mean, when you have nine songs on Cowboy Carter, yeah, that'll do it. No, that helps. God, he's still so relevant. Oh, yeah. He's been doing it so long. How long has the dream just been penning hits? A long time. Yes. So long. Like, how does he not run out of things to say? He's just got it, bro. Like he just has it in him. I tell people all the time, like, this is I I believe this is a uh unproven but proven theory that songwriters run out of songs. It's just, you know, it's just what happens. Um, you know, the greats. Like, I believe this is gonna sound blasphemous, but at some point, even Stevie Wonder stopped writing. No tabs.

I know, listen. By the way, when I pulled up my I was ripping in the sky with playing in my car, so I can see that. But but at some point I believe your tank just runs out. And I don't know what's different about dreams, and I don't want to put a jinx on it or nothing, but his tank is still full. Yeah, he's as relevant as he was day one. Oh man, yeah. So you've been a part of like 15 number one hits, so you're no stranger yourself. Sure. To both on the songwriting side and like the making music side, and then also on the business side, right? Um Ray Daniels and the manager's Playbook podcast just talked about like magic versus science when it comes to hit making, right? So how much of it is like scientific, like BPM or like the key. This exactly like these t technical things versus like versus like the magic of what's happening in the room, or you know, using the dream as an example, like just the magic that like rains down on the dream every time he looks to go pen a record, right? Like what's your take on that distinguishing between magic and science?

I mean, I think we're just translating, we're saying the same thing, but just probably speaking different languages. And again, for me, it's feel. It's feel. I always have this theory. It's like at some point in the record, can you stick the microphone out to the crowd and can they sing you back the lyrics? Huge, right there. Huge. Yes. How often have we given that feedback? We do live music reviews and we'll say, like, you had some great bars in there, but like there was no point where we could like kind of repeat it back and single, I don't remember any of the words after one listen. That's a red flag, right? That's a huge red flag. Yeah. Damn. So what other technical things should people keep in mind when they're you know, if their goal is to make a hit, that's like huge feedback, right? Because if you make a demo, you play it back, and you don't get that vibe that you could hold the microphone out to the crowd, it's it's done. Like it's not a hit, right? Yeah. What are some other like boxes that you think have to be checked to become a hit? Um, I always believe in unique voice tone.

I believe in tones. Yeah. Tones move me, right? You know, it's like there's a lot of tones out there that are very vanilla. Amen. It's true. And and tones aren't about always about how great of a singer you are. Tones are just about like, you know, T Boss. Mhmm. Tones are about, you know, vibe and energy. Sade's voice is vibe and energy. Janet Jackson had a vibe and energy. She's not Whitney Houston, but she had a vibe and energy. She had tone. When she sings funny how time flies, or you know, whatever, it makes you feel, right? So I believe about can you can you pull a feeling in your tone? Whether, you know, so it's like Drake has a tone. You know what I'm saying? And it's it's a tone. So I believe that is part of it. Um, again, I just believe that you know there has to be points in the record that are call and response in a sense, you know, things of that nature. Yeah.

Oh, the call and response one. It's a big one. Yeah, it's a big one. And the tone thing is good too, because I think a lot of you know, artists try and strive for this like perfect voice or something, or like in perfect tune or perfect key, all these like different, you know, things, right? Uh that are technical, but it's more to your point, about the feeling. Even if there's like slight imperfections, that almost is better in my mind. A 100%. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, there's been many times of, you know, you you can talk to babyface, you know, an artist will have a bad, you know, take on a track, and he'll keep it in there. Just because it's a unique feel, right? So I think a lot of times, you know, we're not always striving for perfectionism. Sometimes it's just feeling, right? Which is what you get in a Mary J. Blige record. You get feeling, you get you get raw emotion. When I'm tracking artists, something I tell them all the time is I can with a just a couple clicks. If you were a little early, a little late, yeah, boom, I'm nudging it. If your note is a little flat, like I'd nudge that. What I can't do is add feeling into your take.

They don't have that equipment yet. It's not been made. maybe AI is coming for that. next. That plug-in is not here yet. It's not here yet. So you know, an artist might say, No, I don't like that one. Like I messed that note up. I'm like, no, but I I felt it. Right. And I can fix that, I can nudge that note a little bit. It's fine. That's real. So we had a clip from our T Ron Thomas Mhmm. On, you know, on the podcast go viral, and it was basically him talking about how melody is the most important part of a song. What do you think the most important part of a song is? Um a few things. Um obviously melody is it is it, right? It's you know, Quincy Jones said it's melody, right? It's melody. If Quincy says it, it's melody. It's, That's law. Um I think now you have a few seconds to grab people. So I think opening lines are key. Little shift in the yeah, modern day. You got it. You gotta, you know, you gotta you gotta come out with a with a with a you know, your four bars have to be like, okay, I need to listen to the next four bars. So should long intros be dead?

Not necessarily be dead, but the moment you say something, it has to be like, it has to be unique. Yeah. Damn. You know what I mean? So you gotta you gotta catch them right away. You think starting with a chorus versus starting with a verse is not as important or not really? Man, I I try it. If that's the best part of the record, try it. You know what I mean? Front load it though, grab them. Yes, fucking grab them, like whatever you gotta do to do it. You can't you can't cuss on here, actually. Shout out to the FCC. We'll bleep me. No, no. No, the amount of people that ask if they can curse, and we're like, fuck yeah, you can. I'm like, thank God, at least you just went for it. I know. I hate those people that ask. You guys, you guys, this environment feels like I can cuss. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know what that means, but we agree. Sure. Yeah, I feel like we're just chilling. Yes. How much good? How much of a hit is strategy versus luck? Man, none of it is strategy. A lot of it is luck timing and moment, you know. When I can many times in my career, but one just popped in my brain.

It's like when we were doing Alessia Carr and we did the song here, I knew we had a great song. We had a Sebastian Cole wrote a great record. But I was like, okay, now we to my earlier point, we got to elevate it. So we got to go find production. So I called Oak and Pop, and you know, they're great. And I was like, okay. So I introduced them and they started working together. And I'll never forget the moment I was sitting in the studio at Glenwood, and we were looking for ideas to just elevate the record. And I swear to God, it might have been like 11:45 at night, midnight, whatever, eating some pizza, whatever. And I was leaning on the couch this way, and out of the corner of the room over there, shout out Pop on Zell. He dropped the needle on the Isaac Hay sample. And at that moment in time, we knew the record here was complete. I knew.

I was like, okay, that's it, right? So that's magic. Yeah. That's that's just magic. Yeah. I just feel like those you can't plan for that. No. Not at all. So it's like, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from planning either? Yeah, like how do you balance that, right? Because it's almost like you can't just wait for creativity to strike, from what I've heard, right? You do it is this muscle somewhat, right? Where you have to kind of put in the reps. Like, how should they view that like balance? Listen, I think you put yourself in the room with dope people. That's how you curate. You got to curate the room with talented people. I mean, again, as an AR, you know, I Alessia, I signed Alessia. She had tone. Her voice was dope. I was like, okay, cool. Did that. Sebastian Cole, an amazing songwriter, aka Pink Beard now. Um wow. Amazing songwriter, great storyteller. Um, I said, okay, cool.

Oak and pop, Oak is an incredible vocal producer, producer as well, but he's he knows how to, he can eq the shit out of a vocal. He just he gives you that thing. He cares. And I'm like, okay, cool. Let's bring them him in. Pop on Zelle, who, when they were working at the time together, Sonic, gritty, he brings grit, he brings Philly, he brings grime to the record. And he brought that. So again, in the room were dope people. And dope people made dope things happen. But you can't plan that, but you can oh, the best thing you can do is just make sure the room is full of amazing talented people. You can maximize your opportunities to get lucky. That's it. That's it. Something I think you said that really struck a chord with me is that like the demo was done, right? And then you went to go find the production. And I feel like a lot of emerging artists, they look at it like there's producer that makes beat, there's artist that records vocals, there goes song. Yeah, no, I know. Because when I signed her, funny story, it's a real funny story, but I signed her.

Somebody came to me to do a meeting, and they were playing me a rapper, and she was singing the hook. And I was like, okay, yeah, your man, he's cool, but who's the girl singing the hook? Tone. Who's the girl on the hook? He was like, Oh, this is some girl that my daughter's found on YouTube, whatever. And I said, Well, we need to, I want to sign her. He's like, Well, we don't have her yet. My man Tony Perez and Robbie are like, we don't have her yet. And I was like, Well, y'all go go get her. Go go get the girl. And, you know, shout out to EP Entertainment. They went up to Toronto and they signed her and they brought her. I was like, when you bring her, when you sign her, bring her back. You know, because that tone and the hook, it was what was what mattered to you. Yeah, man. So as like a songwriter and and on the AR side, how do you know when a song is done? Feel. Feel. When you walk out the studio and you listen to the record in the car and you're driving, if it if it moves you and you hear it again, you listen to it again, you're like, okay, we're ready to go. That's how I that's for me.

That's why I do it. Okay, I feel like something could, I could still feel something, but maybe the mix is still kind of shitty. Yeah. Like, what kind of conversations do you have with, you know, clients, right? When maybe they're wanting to keep working on something, but you're like, it's done. I've had many artists who were mad at me because I didn't, I went when they weren't ready, when they felt like they weren't ready. But at some point, you you you you gotta be confident with the artwork you created because you'll be in there beating it up over and over again. And you know, I've had experiences where, you know, I've I've as a young AR, I watched, you know, when when label budgets were huge, right? And you can leave a board mix up at Larrabee or a record plant for days and at $2,000 a day, and nobody was gonna say nothing. And I've watched artists go out there and take faders up and down and do all kinds of shit. And, you know, you spend 21,000, 30,000 on one particular mix, you know, a rough mix, and you're sitting there and it still doesn't sound as good as a demo, right?

So a lot of that happen, a lot of a lot of that just comes from my experience as an AR, watching people just take the sauce off of a record because they just you know overthought it. Overthought it. It's the whole art is never finished, it's only abandoned. There you go. So would you say that more often than not, artists are spending too much time rather than not enough? 100%. Yeah I I I you know, I won't say names of artists, but I've You could drop one. I mean, just I won't I won't just say it, Tab. I mean, I'm should I'm not even gonna go there. If there was if there was some Blanco Tequila instead of in that Fiji bottle, then I might slip up. Damn, we tried, you know. I have some reposado. No, we're good, we're good. So I'm gonna. We're gonna take a quick commercial break. And Tab's gonna say the artist after this. Exactly, right? No, but I've I went when they didn't feel like I should go go, but a hit record came out of it. So you can't, you know, what's better than number one?

You know, I went, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so I, you know, it happens, right? Did the artist at least never no, they don't art that's not that's not what our right. I know. Why am I just hoping that the artist is like, damn, Tab, you're really right about this one. No, I know. They were still pissed after the number one. No, they don't do that. Damn. So, you know, you're one of like a I feel like uh elite group or like a small class at least of you know, songwriters or producers or whatever turn artists even turned executives. Like it doesn't happen that often, at least to get to like the level that you've gotten on both sides, right? Like you've penned number one hits, and then you've obviously been in the you know executive seat and had number one hits, right? Um, what made you want to do that in the first place? Like, why leave the music making only role? You know, it was that's a great question. I'll have to answer it a bunch of different ways. But did your songwriting tank run out that you were talking about earlier? Well, again, I'm gonna answer it a bunch of different ways.

Okay, that's one way. That's one way. Um at some point, you know, I was in publishing deals that were, you know, they were fucking terrible. They were called MDRC deals, right? So minimum delivery and recording commitment, whatever that stands for commitment. And so I had to write four wholly written records to get my song to get to my next deal, my option. So to get some checks. So what I said to myself, okay, you know, I can't do it by getting a song here on this artist, a song on this artist, a song on that artist. So I said, you know, I'm gonna go find my own artist, and I'm gonna dump all my songs on one artist so that I can get through my my commitment. Oh, he found the loophole, if you will. At that point, I was like, all right, I'm gonna do that. And then I ended up A&Ring. you know what I'm saying? So I would go find I found a girl named Blue Cantrell, for example. I remember Blue Trail, for example. I remember Blue Cantrell. Trail. So I was what was the big record? Hit 'Em Up Style. Yay. Oh my god, bro. Lady Man, again, but yeah. So I was like, okay, so I found her, and I was like, okay, dope.

Got her deal, signed to Arista. And I was like, I'm gonna write all my songs and put all my songs on Blue Can Trail so I can get through my pub deal. Yeah, he's like, fuck it, MDRC, Fuck it, MDRC. And so, you know, at that point, then I was like, oh shit, I'm A&Ring records, I'm making records. And then another way So it like proved to you that you could do it. 100%. Okay, so many ARs we talked to have been like, yeah, oh, I just realized I was already doing it. Yeah, exactly. It is true. It's a very common theme amongst you A&Rs. Yeah. So it's like, fuck that. I I'm doing this already. So you know, there was that aspect of it. Hey, Henry here. Sorry to interrupt this podcast, but there is something I have to address. As many of you know here at one more time, we love doing live music reviews. We love hearing the music from our community and providing helpful feedback that is hopefully helping you further your career. But if there's one piece of advice that we are tired of giving, it's that your master is too quiet. We shouldn't have to turn up the volume for your song just to have to turn it back down for the next song. That's not good.

But Henry, good mastering engineers are so hard to find and so expensive. Enter DistroKid's newest tool called Mixia. I master music myself. And while I don't think AI mastering will ever replace the quality you get from an experienced human mastering engineer, it's pretty damn good. And if you already distribute through DistroKid, you can now master unlimited tracks using Mixia. And if you don't, we have a link right here. You can sign up for DistroKid with 30% off. Upload unlimited music yearly for an insanely cheap price. Humans perceive louder as better. It's dumb, but it's true. Use Mixia for a clean master, and you won't sound weak on that playlist. Let's get back to the episode. And another aspect of it was um I met this kid named Lonnie Bro, aka Frank Ocean, and you know, it's I'm a big sports fan, so I I use a lot of sports analogies. At some point, you realize, you know, I can't jump as high as that kid. I'm not, I'm not as fast as that as that kid. So in my case, I believe creative father time caught me.

And when you're on the court with somebody and you were like, okay, you know what? He just crossed me up. He's quicker, faster, better than I could ever be. And I was like, okay, you know what? It's time to hang my hang it up. See, but I love that. And I was, I was just like, I when I listened to his music, I you know, I thought I was a pretty good songwriter. When I listened to his music, I was like, when I first found him, I was just like, oh, I'm not as good as that guy. And I don't think I'll ever be as good as that guy. And every time I'm never forgetting, you know, he would send me records. He just sent me demo after demo after demo. And every demo was better than the last demo that I thought was the best demo that I've ever heard. And so I was just like, wait, wait, that's better than the one you sent me last week. And this is better than it. So it just kept getting better. And I was like, yo, you know what? Like, fuck that. Like, I'm not, I'm I'm I'm done. Damn.

See, like part of me hates that because it almost it sounds again. I'm I don't think this is exactly what you're doing, but it's like it sounds like you were, you know, like if you if you can't be the best, then like why do it at all? That's like part of what I hear. But then the other part of what I hear that's almost more beautiful is that you didn't let your fucking ego get in the way of you being successful in music. And a lot of our community might be better served. Again, this is not uh, you know, you know, throwing shade at anyone, it's just that like maybe realize like some of your other talents that you do have as well, even if it's something that you really love to do that you're doing now, like open your eyes, I guess, or like you know what I mean, be open and like just try different things. Because I mean, dude, you were like like hard fast set on being a recording engineer at first, and then it was like, oh, I actually like this production thing, and then now you're doing the podcast, and you like really find a lot of like enjoyment doing this. You know what I mean? Like you could have hung this up and been like, ah, fuck this, I'm not even that good of a podcast. Yeah. So let's do it. Yeah, I haven't done that yet.

I know. Yeah. But I think it, you know, just shout out to you because I think it takes a lot of like self-awareness. And this game to me, man, just as I talk to, I mean, you know, hundred plus people, right? Yeah. Um, the self-awareness thing is like it's almost the number one. Whether you're an artist and needing to be self-aware of like what your brand stands for and like who you actually are authentically, or whether you're an executive and you need to be self-aware about like sure, I need to be an executive and not a songwriter, right? Because that's where my strengths lie. Like that's like there's like a thousand ways to make money in the music industry. And being an artist is probably the worst one. It's definitely again, it's just I'm sorry. Yeah, I mean, it's just like you gotta love it. And if you love it, do it. Yeah. Did you immediately see success then, like coming into the business side, and that was like easy to keep going? Um, no, listen, I think when there was a tough transition from going from creative to executive for me. What was the thing you hated the most? You know, it's funny because I was living in Atlanta here, right?

So, you know, I I worked for I was consulting for a company called Hitco at the time. And then, you know, I was cool, you know, kind of my own schedule, whatever. Then, you know, I got the big job. I went, you know, I got to move to LA and I got to Sony ATV and I got to go meet Marty Bandier and work with Jody Gerson and all those people. And there was a serious learning curve because, you know, I'm a songwriter, I'm a creative, I'm, you know, I'm a I'm uh I'm a Pisces, I'm a true Pisces. I'm like, uh, I may wake up one day, you know, and just go sit on the beach for a fucking five hours and just, you know, I may fly to Miami and just do whatever. I might go to Circle House and decide to work. Well, you know, you just we worked at a different, you know, level of pace. When you're an executive and you have a corporate card and you have a title and you have all that shit, and you have meetings and you have so I had to learn how to do that and and how to to literally be an executive. You know, it's funny because you know, I I tell people this all the time. I didn't go to college. You know, I got a G D AKA good enough diploma. Never heard that.

somehow. I never heard that either. I got accepted to go to school, but I it just I did I never ended up going because I just wanted just do this music thing. Um but everybody, you know, that I've worked with a college degree. They went to the Bandier School of Music, they went to Syracuse, they went to Northwestern, you know, they went, so everybody has this this way they do things, right? And it's not it, I learned a lot from my fellow executives who learn that way. I just was a creative executive. I wasn't a true executive executive. And so I I you know I peeped that out early in the game. I'm like, okay, you know, I don't talk like they talk, I don't walk like they walk. But but at the same time, you know, what I had to learn many years into it is that I need to use my skill set to my advantage. Yeah, and and like what advantage did you have over them coming from the creative side? I think I speak the language of a songwriter. I can communicate with songwriters and in the way songwriters talk. I can I know songwriter energy, you know.

I always, you know, you know, it's my man Tricky Stewart always says, like, I've walked in the room with silence and came out with noise. Like I've done that. You know what I'm saying? I know how to do that. That's a good one. That's a bar. You know, is that what Tricky says? That's Tricky's quote. Damn. I like that one, Tricky. So we've done that. You know, executives have never done that. You know, they they you know, they can sit on the back of the couch. I should say, like, like I'm not one of them. But we we some of us, you know, can be like, I need a hit, you know. What the fuck does that mean? You know what I mean? Like you can be like at a third and fifth harmony on that hook. Yeah, so I know how to sit with Manny Marroquin or Jason Joshua and and talk about mixes and things of that nature, you know what I mean. Let's try some side chain compression. Yeah, you listen, On the drums. We've done it all, right? You know, we've, I've been a part of, yeah, I've worked with just about you know a lot of people. I've sat in a room with with you know everybody from Max Martin working on records to Babyface and you know, Tricky Stewart, you know, or you know, the great. So I was from that perspective, I think that's my aka superpower.

But like, what does you know, what does a conversation with a songwriter look like, right? That's different the way you do it versus maybe like someone who doesn't come from your you know what I mean? Uh is there any like kind of tangible example that you can give of like just like the way you've communicated with a songwriter, right? Versus the way that like an executive who doesn't have your background, maybe the way that they have communicated with the songwriter. You know what's the difference? You know, I don't always try to lead with my resume. You know, I think that's kind of weird, you know what I mean? So you certainly could. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could. You don't walk around with your plaques. Yeah, you don't have them in the car. They're somewhere upstairs in the attic. This front license plate is a plaque. Yeah, right. So Hitmaker is there, right? On his license. plate. I need a big old chain, right? Yeah. But no, for the most part, I I I I still, you know, we work together. So it's like I at my point, I at some point I just like want I want to know what you're feeling. Talk to me.

So I'm I'm much more of a listener in that way. And so I try to, when they are telling me what they need, what they're looking for, I find a way to help them and navigate them and I think once they find out that I've written songs before, I think they're like, oh, okay, you've you've done this. Oh wow, they don't even know. He knows the process. No, no, I don't, I don't, I don't tell people. People are all the time. Like I've writers come to me all the time. I didn't know you wrote. I didn't know what you wrote. So yeah, that happens all the time. Wow. Why am I thinking that everyone just does their research on people? I mean not at all. You'd think that you would, but I guess maybe not. No, bro. Oh, that's interesting, man. Um, okay, cool. So, you know, you wrote on um on Bieber's first single, right? And so, like, when you wrote, it was it was one time, right? Yeah, okay. So when you wrote one time. Very close to one more time, yeah, it is my dad, yeah. I was I was pretty pleased to find that out. Um, did you know at the time that he was gonna be the Biebs? A thousand percent of it. Really? Everyone.

Really? A thousand percent I do. So, like, what what can you say about right? Like, what do you what did you see in him at the time that made you be like overly confident that this kid is going to be one of the biggest artists ever? Um Scooter Braun called me and said, I got this kid, and he showed me the clip when he was playing um, I can't remember the song right now, but he's on a guitar, and I think it was the Stratford, Canada, and the kid had this big ass guitar in his hand, it's bigger than him, and Scooter kept showing me this video, and I was like, I get it. I get it. What are we doing? Let's do it. And Scooter said, Dope, let's do it. And so, you know, I wrote a songs on the record. Um, after that, I placed probably like, then I put my publishing hat on because I was at Hitco at the time. And I, you know, I placed like five, six, five songs on the first project, one being one from Frank Ocean, because I had to recoup that deal. When I signed him, I was like, okay, I gotta get some money back, so I'm gonna put you some songs on this project.

So Frank wrote something for Justin back then? Yeah, he wrote a song. I think it was called Bigger. Yeah, I put it on Bigger. See, that is always what excites me, man. To find out little stuff like that. just some of your like favorite artists have penned records for other favorite artists. I brought, I brought, you know, I said I called Scooter because I was getting records for him. I said, yo, I got a song. And it was one of the ones that that Frank wrote. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna place to send Scooter Heard. it. He's like, yo, let's do it. So I was literally just grabbing songs. You know, I would sit there, I'd send Scooter records at night. Yeah, what do you think of this record? What do you think of this record? What do you think of this record? He's like, oh, let's do it. Let's do it, let's do it. How old was he at the time, Justin Bieber? Teenager. Teenager, man, 13, 14. Was there anything like weird or different about like writing for a teen versus nah? Okay, I didn't know like that. Like, you know, I mean, you're not like fucking bitches getting money. Exactly. Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, you know, it's PG 13-ish. No, for sure, but still some of the same, like just love themes or like whatever. Absolutely.

That's what you're doing. You just, and and hopefully it's wrapped around a good hook and you know, stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Damn. So as far as how how did you discover Frank? Because I want to talk about like how you discovered Frank at the time, or just any clients that you were working with, you know, back then, because that's like a decade plus now, almost probably at this point, right? Longer now. Yeah, sure. Okay. So I want to talk about Discovery Then versus Discovery Now, because we're obviously in a different fucking ball game. Of course. So how did it happen then? Discovery then was I heard a record. From where how? Wow. I was I had just signed when I was at uh Bug Windswept, I'd signed producers, KP and Malay. Kawan Prather, genius. Oh phenomenal. Yeah, we had him on. Yeah. He's the best. He's literally love Kawan. I just believe KP is the great, untapped value. He could run a label, he could run a marketing department, he could run AR. He's just he just gets it culturally cool, tapped in forever.

Yeah. So but KP at one point was a songwriter, producer, or whatever. Yeah. And so there was a record, I think, quickly. The record was called Quickly, that he had produced. And the demo, I heard the demo, I think it was. God, I always forget this is how long it was. So I I think it was when I heard the demo of Quickly, is when I kind of met him. And then Frank was working at some place and then we kind of connected that way. And he was working with these guys called Mini Mafia, and we uh somehow we got together, and I was like, yo, I let's let's just do a deal. Let's let's let's lock in. I'm gonna I'm gonna sign you. Again, just off the music. Just off. He had no placements, he had nothing like that. It was just it was just tone. And no social media, There was no social media. He hates that term, sign. You know, in Frank's case, you never say you sign. I partnered with Frank. Yeah, okay. Sorry, Frank. No, it's real. Frank, we'd love to have you on the podcast.

We won't sign you to the podcast. Let me just say this for the record, Tab never signed Frank. I partnered with Frank. Got it. You don't sign Frank Ocean. All right, so we shouldn't title the episode, you know. No, yeah, no, no, no. Signing Frank Ocean. No, you don't you don't sign Frank. I partnered with Lonnie Bro, aka Frank Ocean. Okay, wow. Um so it was m ear discovery. It was discovery back then, right? So little you heard songs. I just heard, you know, and I'm like, okay, this is this is phenomenal. Yeah. And, you know, I was like, okay, whatever you're doing, we're gonna, I'm in. Let's go. And then now. Well, yeah, I mean, it's God, it's it's such a different landscape right now, right? So it's like, you know, yeah, give us a peek behind the curtain, man. Like what happens? I'm on my phone looking. I'm sending stuff to the staff, to my staff. I'm like, yo, go find who this is, go find who this is. You know, where are you finding it? Like, you know what I mean? It's just social media. It's social media, it's whatever. Yeah, social media 90% of the time, 80% of the time, you know, I'm hearing it. Or, or there's people say, send me stuff, right?

People will send me stuff. Um, and I'm listening to it that way. And so I, you know, I'm I'm always, you know, I'll send something to one of my staff. I'm like, and I'll hit them up in the middle and I'll hit them up on a Sunday, like, yo, I don't give a shit what you're doing. Like, yo, what is listen to this, go find who this person is. Or sometimes I'll go find it myself, you know, like whatever. Yeah, so it's can anyone send you anything, or do you kind of need to know you? I'd prefer that it's filtered. Maybe just like the people watching this episode could get an email address. Absolutely not. Okay, Dude, hey, I'm trying to look out. One more time. y'all don't fuck with Henry for that, Yeah. Shout out to Henry. I tried, y'all. yeah. He gave it, he gave it his all. But no, listen, but again, I'm not above discovery. Like, yo, I'll, you know, I'll tell my staff, I told them recently, like, yo, I'll fly to Moscow to for something that I hear that that's dope. You know, I'll get up and you know, whatever. Like, this is what I do, right? Yeah, so um, yeah, how we discover is usually that way. Um, yeah, it's a it's a different time, but again, you know, that's the beauty of it though.

Now you can put music out, you can hear music, you can you can you can find it in many different ways, right? So it's like, you know, in a certain sense, it's easier, possibly, because every, by the way, everybody's looking at the same shit, right? You can go to, you know, if you go to my Karen's office, you know, and you walk in there, it's just a ton of people scouring and listening and looking, right? And that's happening globally. Right. You know what I'm saying? If you go to APG, it's like it's there. It's it's everybody's got research, everybody's looking at the same research, the same data, you know, everybody's looking, right? And so at some point you just got to figure out taste and tone, like what do you like versus what this other person likes? And maybe you catch it earlier than somebody else was catching it. But for the most part, everything's pretty much sonically flat. We're all the world is flat now. So when do you think an artist is is ready for a deal? Hmm. Great question. When is an artist ready for a deal? When they want to, if they feel like they've they they need help. If they feel like, you know what, I've taken it as far as I can, um, and I want to take it further, they'll, you know, and their attorney will call you and say, hey, I want to go take it to the next level.

So what does a publisher like say to an uh, you know, a songwriter, right? That that comes into a you know meeting and is like, hey, I think I've taken this, you know, to the you know, point that I can. Like, what you know what I mean? Like, what's the selling point, right? From your perspective. Sometimes it's like, I I I can't give you percentage, but it could be 60, 40, like we'll call you, right? You know what I'm saying? So, yo, like, are you you do are you interested in doing a pub deal? You know, have you done a pub deal? Are you getting out of a pub deal? So a lot of times we'll find you again. Um, but there is some early cases where, you know, well, I'll call, I'm sure I have some examples in my brain where I've called and said, hey, you know, let's let's do a deal before, you know, you're looking to do a deal. I signed a kid named the rapper who I love, his name is Simba. He's um out of the bay. Um I love Simba. Simba's amazing, right? Yeah, we know. He's literally one of the best rappers ever. He really is. He's so good. And he he's from the base, the he's from the home turf. So um for me, it was like, you know, he wasn't looking for a deal.

I, you know, I but I you know I heard it and I was like, do you want a deal? You know what I'm saying? And so yeah, he's like, Yeah, let's do a deal. So, you know, there could be different ways in how, yeah, I'm curious too, like, because we've interviewed some of the biggest independent artists in the world, and they all kind of say the same thing as far as they can do, you know, they can do this without a label, they can hire a team, um, especially like you know, nowadays when it's just the things are more accessible. So, what is like the the main appeal? Is there a type of artist that maybe needs a label versus another type of artist? Or like, why should people be looking to a label? I mean, listen, I'll put on my, you know, I'll sound like the old guy right now. But um, yeah, there's artists that do need labels because if you if your aesthetic is expensive, you're gonna need a label at some point, right? If you're a group and you have to move four people around or three people around, that's expensive, right? If you need glam, like if you need certain things, like you know, there's certain things you need your marketing, your music requires, you know, a bigger audience, you know, you need to touch more people. A lot of that can be done on the internet now.

I don't want to sound, I don't want Russ calling me and saying, that guy's full of shit. He already just texted you, check your phone. I don't know, Russ, but I love what Russ does, right? So Russ would look and could listen to me and be like, Oh, that guy's full of shit, but because he's proven it to be one other way. But I think at some point, you know, if if if you're a a stage kid out of from who's been doing some shit in iCarly or some Nickelodeon shit, and you wanna, you know, take it to the next level and be Ariana Grande, you know, I think that's hard to do independently. Yeah, that's a good example. Yeah, I mean, you know, Russ is one of the maybe few, along with maybe like a Brent Faiyaz, right? Who is kind of like trying to prove that wrong, right? By being a global he's proved it. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think in a in a recent interview, he said he's touched a hundred M's, right? I mean, which is also a very like rare mindset that I think most artists don't have, which is okay, but you just might need someone else that but you know what he said recently, which I thought was so dope, was that he realized at some point his music was sucking. It was terrible.

Yeah, Honest with himself. Did you hear that? Manager's playbook interview. It was great, right? And then he he figured out how to tweak it and and what to do. And some self-realization creatively was so dope for him. I think that was his aha moment. And he switched it up. And you know, I think I think a lot of artists don't have that inner filter, yeah, to be like, yo, this shit I'm doing is not working. I need to pivot. And he did that. And I think that's part of why that's that's a unique skill set that he has, which is why he is where he is. Yeah, something that I've learned is you know, even when we do these live streams where we, you know, give feedback on our on our community's music. I feel like if we don't love the song, um, some of our artists get very defensive. Yeah. They they really put the guard up. Yeah. And in my mind, it's like, hey, A, we're just two guys, like fuck our opinion, Potentially fuck our opinion, right? But at the same time, like, you know, having that kind of like just reflective, you know what I mean? Like just being being being able to reflect on like what is being said to then maybe try and tweak.

But then I think that goes back to what we were talking about as far as like songs or people's babies, and like you call their baby anything but the most beautiful baby you've ever seen in the world, then like they don't want to hear it, right? Yeah. Um, so I do think that's holding a lot of yeah, our artist friends back. Yeah, exactly. I think so too. Yeah, same thing on the songwriter side and like producer side, or I want to make one more point about that too. I think the one thing that's holding artists back too is they're not coachable. Yeah. And and I I think this generation of artists isn't coachable. You think it's worse now? It's way worse. What why why do you think so? Because you get instant feedback right here on your phone and people telling you they love you. But it's it's it's cool to have a girl in Juneau, Alaska or somebody say they love you, but at the end of the day, that's not that's not how you get to where you need to get to. I think everybody that's made it that's still doing it, we we we were all coachable. I I in my career, I've been coached, I've been coachable, you know, at some point.

So I was you know, I was taught my songs needed to be better. I was taught I needed to be how to do this as an A&R. Like you have to be coachable. I think where we could live in a generation and we're working in a generation where artists aren't coachable. Yeah, I think it's also I tell people this much Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer of all time. He has a coach, right? Yeah, that's right. You can you have to be coachable. Yeah, I I think uh, yeah. I mean, just even Michael Jordan with you know, with uh Phil Jackson. But I mean, I I I think something you said about like the you know, girl in Juneau, Alaska that says that she loves you, right? And you know, in your comment section, I feel like people confuse followers and fans. That's right, right? And so if that same person in Juneau Alaska that says they love you in their comments, you know, in in your comment section is also buying your merch and buying a ticket to see you, sure. Then go go ahead. Then like that that's fine. You know, you're clearly doing something right. Real talk. But I think a lot of people confuse, they confuse popularity on social media. And once again, you can monetize that too.

Don't get me wrong. But that doesn't equate to if it's something like an AR is saying specifically about your music and about how your music can be marketed. Those two things aren't the. fucking. If there's someone that's in love with you, you could put out a two-minute song of farts and they would eat it. They would love it. You know what I mean? Were you about to say they would eat that up? No, but that would have been better. Wow. That's what I thought you were about to say I was like, Jesus Christ. Um, so you know, we've had the biggest songwriter of 2024, Theron Thomas on, on the podcast, right? Or I think he was 2023. Yeah. Um, and you know, so uh obviously he's he's making money off of songwriting, but like but do you have to have like massive records to make like a livable income as a songwriter? Or is it possible? You have to have a you have to have massive records, you have to have sustained success. You have to get out of that first deal to get to that second deal to get to that third deal. You know, it's like an NBA deal, right?

You know, you got your rookie contract, and then you got that other contract. Theron's got to that other contract, and then that other contract, right? But that's because of consistency, and he's you know, he's he wrote his way out of bad deals. Yeah, so you do have to A, be doing this a while, and B have some big songs to make like you can you can through hype, you can get a good deal, big deal, but it's at some point it runs out. See, Theron's where he is because a he was coachable. Dr. Luke, he'll tell you to this day, coached him, he learned. He's he sat Luke's heel, you know, he'll, he'll, he can preach the school of Luke, right? But he was coachable and he wrote he's written hits for over a decade plus, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, damn. I mean, is coach is coachability just like in some people and not in others, you think? Yeah, it's it's in it's in the ones that are winning. Can it be learned? Absolutely.

Yeah, it can be learned. You know, Beyonce's on stage at 43 years old because she was coached by a lot of people. She was coached, mainly Matthew Knowles, but she was coached, and and that's why you see her, now she's a machine. You have to be coachable. Taylor Swift was coached, you know, the great ones are coached, right? You don't you're not nobody's at O2 that wasn't coachable. Yeah. You know, so you kind of hinted at like how artists in in this generation aren't as coachable potentially as as those, you know, in the past, right? Yeah. What else do you think is kind of because you've been in this game a long time now, right? Like, what else have you seen drastically change, right? From like when you first got into the game and then where you're at now. Oh, a hundred thousand songs uploaded every day. And that that's a great statistic, but like, what does that mean in your you know what I mean? What does that actually mean? Discovery's a lot harder, right? Yeah, you know, you know, I don't I frankly I don't listen to it, I don't find everything.

It's hard to, right? How how can you, you know, find all, you know, whatever's great. Um, so that's changed. Yeah. Um, you know, it's like when a record used to drop back in the day, we all would know that it drops, right? You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, I mean, the the the amount of times that I've found out that a huge artist just dropped, and I had no idea that they were you. Yeah. Or like I or actually better example, I didn't hear that the big artist dropped, and I'm like, what fucking rock am I living under that? I was about to say, like, Beyonce just dropped, but I usually hear about that. But you know what I mean. But like full-length albums go under the radar sometime. Yeah. I mean, right now there's probably eight artists that drop that we get that that garner that, okay, did you know that such and such Yeah, like I have no idea who's dropping tomorrow. Yeah. There's too many. There's too many people to know. Don't know. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, like discoverability. What else is happening? I mean, so like AI's happening right now. I think one of the other things that's we'll get to AI AI. I think, again, this is uh I'm I'm on one right now with my wild ass takes, but yes, you caught me on a on a whatever day. Let's go.

And no tequila, guys. Listen, no tequila. This is sober, unfiltered tab right now. No classes who I think festivals have changed it all too, right? What do you mean by that? I I think it's it's speed dating. I I don't know if we're just we're just falling in love the way we used to fall in love. With an artist? With an artist. Yeah. You're like quicker and we're quicker. We're we're we're we're quicker, right? I mean, you said something recently, I think, about like how we're more song centric versus artist-centric or something. Yeah, I'm sure I see it. Is that kind of that sounds like something I was saying? Is that hold on, hold on. You you you can't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said we're so I probably said that shit. Yeah, you said we're so I agree with it. Yeah, yeah. I I agree with it, you know, but yeah, listen, songs are two minutes and 15 seconds. It's it's just it's it's it's such a weird, you know. I never thought we would get here, but we're here. And listen, you know, um we're all thriving in this space, you know. Shout out, you know, knock on wood here that you still have a nice job.

I still have a great job. I by the way, I'm really good at my job. So I want to, you know what I'm saying? So I I I I've adapted, you know what I'm saying? You have to adapt and evolve with it. Bro, you just signed the dream. Like, like we get it. And be common. Let me be very clear. I I've signed The-Dream. You partnered with The-Dream. I pulled it, not even that. I signed The-Dream's twenty, thirty hits in, hits in. And so it's like, so again, I don't, you know, That's still cool though. Fuck that. Like my job, my job now is to sign the next dream. I know. And I and I think, you know, there's a kid out of Atlanta named Pop Lord who I think could be Dream. You know, should we get should we get popular on the podcast? It sounds like we should get Pop Lord in here. Pop Lord on the podcast. Pop Lord episode coming soon. Let me tell you something. I'm gonna get you Pop Lord in here. Let's go. Pop has, you know, he's got the Cardi B single outside right now. Yeah. Crazy. Pop is hot. Pop wrote a lot of GloRilla records. Pop is dead, dude. He's got his own project coming out. If Pop can, you know, and I'll tell this pop, Pop, if he's coachable, Pop can be Dream. Is he coachable?

We'll see. Pop. Too early to tell Don't disappoint us, Pop. I hope you're watching this episode. We have high hopes for you, Pop. You know, so you know how I know Pop is good? Theron Thomas came up to me recently and was like, yo, that I was in a room with that guy. He got something. And I'm like, see, Theron saw it too. You know, so you know, other greats see it, they can recognize what Pop had. And Pop could be that guy. He just, there's there's things. Dream was coachable. Yeah, so you know, so when a massively successful songwriter like Theron says that about someone that you're working with, yeah. Well, what is it? Is he pointing to like the lyrics that Pop is writing? Is he pointing to like his the way he carries himself in the studio? Like, you know what? What is he saying? I'm a sports guy, right? So if you get on a court and you're if you're a Hooper, Hooper's know other hoopers, ballers know other ballers, right? Theron got in the studio, aka to court and saw another another baller. He's like, Oh, I I know what that is. You guys who got it know other guys who potentially can have it.

It's not necessarily what's immediately on the outside. Nah, you just you just you just know, you know, you it's you just know. Ah, it's so hard for some of our I mean, at least it's hard for me to wrap my head. around sometimes. Oh, you're never gonna understand. No, I don't got it. I might have a chance, but you don't get it. If you're coachable, that's right. Are you coachable, Henry? I think so. I don't think so. I'm your fucking business partner. You are not coachable, my friend. Not by you. I need a real coach. What are you talking about? Give me a real coach. See, Tap, this is you just witnessed a this is how our calls go on a weekly basis. I love it. I love it. Oh, I don't, I hate it. Um, but yeah, no, it's it's one of those, there's a lot of intangibles, man, in music, uh, both on the artist side, and it sounds like on the songwriter, right? You know, because it's like because not only is a music so subjective, right? Because like something that you love, another SVP of AR might literally hate. I don't think it's so like is there a song that became a hit that you just thought sucked? Or someone you passed on, maybe it didn't sign that blew up or something like that.

Yes, to both of those. Okay, any any examples? Your first one said there's a song that I thought sucked. Yeah, that became a massive hit. Oh come on, Tab. I'm I'm gonna go old school just because I just thought about it. Sure. A, his manager is one of my best friends. Okay, so you can say it. I can say this. Okay. And B B, I was just I was in Paris maybe two weeks ago and he was on tour. Okay, 25 years into the game. Yeah, I did not think Nelly had wrote great records initially. And I and I I I know that sounds fucking great. Did you hear country grammar? I heard that it was country grammar. No, no, Tab, your taste sucks. Well, I'm just kidding. Settled. out. I'm just kidding. Listen, I I heard Country Grammar and I was like, I I don't hear it. Wow. How dare you? I know. I know. One of them defines my childhood. I like country grammar. Ben loves country grammar. I love country grammar.

By the way, though, you know, and he's shout out to shout out to Nelly. He's 20, he's celebrating his 25 years Wow. Right. in the game doing his tour. It's selling out crazy. I just saw a show in Paris. Wow. And he's had an amazing career. So, yes, I did not hear Nelly. But now, let me go back. You know who I did hear and I caught early, and everybody knows this. Everybody at the studio knows this. There was a show, there's a show called uh $2 Bill It's called MTV. MTV would play, you know, developing early shit. Okay. And I'm not gonna say the people that said I was wrong. Come on, say it. Tab. I'm not gonna throw them under the bus. Damn. But they know. They know. Send this to them. The moment I heard through the wire, I said, that guy that guy is it. And by the way, I had a bet, and they know I had a bet. I said, yo, this record will be a hit, it will go number one. And they're like, you're crazy.

There's no way, there's no way, there's no way. Even with the the mouth wired shut, mumble kind of sound. I was like, how do you not hear that? Yeah. Wow. How do you not know that that's not some of the greatest shit you've ever heard? And this was early. This is early. This was this was early, early. So again, you know, you miss some and you you you get some. Oh, who did you not sign? Yeah, who'd you pass on that? You were just like, fuck. That was. No, no, I'll I'll say this, right? It wasn't because I didn't know that he was dope. Not at all. I knew he was dope. This was my this is uh an early executive thing. Well, I've never said this to anybody. This is crazy. Exclusive. This is an exclusive. We love a good exclusive tab. How'd you know? Um Kendrick Lamar. No. Kung Fu Kenny. True story. True story. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He he came in, you know, he was in my office when I was at Sony ATV. Young, my first real gig. Um, I loved it.

I used to he used to do these uh performances down at Swap Meet in Long Beach. I went to some. Um my man Sean Holiday, Tubby connected me with him, and I was like, yo, this kid, this kid, he's like, yo, and then day free, they were top, they came to my office at least three or four times. And I did not pull the trigger and I did not stand on the table to go sign that. And that's real. But it but but I will say that it wasn't because I didn't think he was dope. I was I didn't stick my neck out. Sometimes you're you're, you're, you're do I love it was politics. No, it wasn't even politics. I can't blame it on anybody but me. I own this L. And I take that because at some point you have to stand, and you got it, you gotta believe in your you gotta believe in some shit, right? And if I ever write a book, that will be part of the book. Stand on the table, is that what it's gonna be called? Jody Gerson would say this, and she's like, Are you willing to stand on the table for this? And Jody's an amazing, incredible executive. She's the best. Um, and she was my first real boss who used to give me shit all the time, but she may be a better executive. But at the time, I just I was watching it, I was like nervous.

I was like, you know, I was I didn't I didn't stick my neck out. Biggest mistakes one of the biggest mistakes I made. So so who's an artist that you did stand on the table for that like maybe others didn't believe in, but then like the standing on the table worked? I mean, Frank. Frank, clearly Frank, yeah. Wow. Yeah, you know. Man, because you always hear the whole standing on the table thing. You have to. Yeah. You have to, you know, and that that's where that's where that's where greatness is from come from. You know, you can't you can't play it safe, you know. Yeah. Interesting. Um, so we kind of hinted at this, uh, but let's just just unpack this whole AI shit, right? Because I think, you know, um, it's going crazy right now. Um, so first question would be do you think that AI will write a number one hit in this decade? So in the 2020s, unfortunately, yeah. Really? A number one. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I think so. Damn. I think so. I do too. Like full on just AI writing, AI artist, the whole shebang.

You said AI write a song or artist? Okay, sorry, sorry, okay. All right. So you think an a song will be written by AI? Absolutely. But probably before performed by a human artist in this decade, though. Not one. Maybe that's my hope. Because I I think the AI artistry shit is I'm I'm, you know. That's your hope that it like that's the worst that it'll get. Yeah. Is that it's a song written by AI? Yeah, yeah. I think a song written by AI is it's inevitable, right? So how do you in the executive seat and how does your company even maybe, or just the industry as a whole, right? In kind of like the the big leagues, how are you viewing AI, right? Like, how should artists be using it? I think to my company and to this music industry's credit, we're diving into it. We, you know, this is not gonna be a Napster moment, you know, yeah. We're not gonna get blindsided by this. I think we're everybody's embracing it, right? You have to. And I think we've we've learned from the mistakes of the past. Like, if you're not embracing it, you'll get left behind.

So sure. Yeah, but but as someone who was obviously, and I mean you still are on the creative side, even in your executive role, but like as someone who wrote music, like there's a lot of people out there that are like depressed at this being uh you know what I mean? Like they're they're just it makes them sad. Sure, sure. So like makes me sad. Yeah, okay, it does it does, but it is just one of those things where you just don't think it can be stopped. So we have to not be friction, you know, there can't be friction against it because it's just yeah, listen, you know, evolve or get left, right? So it's go it's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's just yeah, it's gonna happen. Yeah. Our buddy Ryan Schmidt makes makes a good point. Because he's the way that the streaming companies pay out is based on like a pie thing, right? Yeah, so you know, the 0.03 cents, whatever is based on how much music is out there. So the quicker the instantaneous AI music that's made and is uploaded and is listened to, it's just it actually is taking away from real people writing real music. So that's a pretty sad way of looking at it too.

So, how do you think that's gonna shake out, right? Because there's a lot of people advocating for like a um fully AI produced music, uh not being included in algorithmic shit from Spotify, right? To again minimize the reach that it gets. Deezer has already done that. Yeah, yeah. So Deezer's already implemented it, and like you know, DSPs are getting pressured to do that. You know, to your point, should there be different payouts for AI You know what I mean, like where do you see this going? You think uh you think uh streaming service is gonna pay? They don't give a shit. Artificial intelligence, right? Yeah, good luck with that. They'll they'll pay you in fucking sound bites or gigabytes or whatever. So so you think the the DSPs probably will be on board with that then? Um, because then they don't have to pay them as much. Or maybe maybe you will have an AI DSP, right? And that's interesting. Interesting. Straight AI. If I want to get my robot music, I'm gonna go over here. There you go. $2 a month.

Yeah. For real. It's just Cheaper and shittier. Yeah. I think it's we'll be worth we're laughing, but we, you know, we'll we'll be sitting here Oh my God. 10 years from now, and there will be AI radio stations, and there'll be AI streaming services. A lot of people thought the internet was a fad, and here we are. You know what I mean? I mean, we pay for two, I pay for two ChatGPT subscriptions. We the tools part I'm pretty fascinated with. Yeah, I found it very helpful. Yeah, but it is when it starts doing the creative jobs that I I start scratching my head and wonder where the line is. We don't know. Evolve or get left, Henry. Jesus. Um, so I do want to make sure that we get this on record. So, like, what is the whole like Tupac story of like your origin story? I need this just because I'm just like a Tupac fan, obviously, like all of us are. So when I heard that there was some way that Tupac like contributed to your I don't I don't I I'll say this. So this is what happened. So when I didn't go to college, my mom gave me the summer. She said, You gotta figure this out.

You're gonna go to school or you're gonna pursue your career. My uncle uh was a great jazz singer, rest in peace, Al Jarreau. He came to do the national anthem in San Francisco at the game, and he says, So what are you gonna do with your life? And I said, I want to be in the record business. And he said to me, Well, you can't do that here in San Francisco. And he said, come down to LA and figure it out. And so my mom said, You can figure it out for the summer. And so I uh took the Amtrak down to uh Al's house and I moved in for the summer, what I thought would be the summer. And you know, I looked and I was like, I saw his house, I was like, Well, I'm never going back out. I was like, wow, this is how you live. This is amazing. Was it like a Prince of Bel Air moment? It was exactly a Prince of Bel Air. moment. he was staying with Uncle Phil, but it was Uncle Al. I was like, wait, you know, you got cooks in this bitch. Like, yeah, whatever. Shit. So um, yeah, Al let me come stay with him. And so um, my brother was working at the palladium, and there was a group from the Bay, Digital Underground was performing. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to see Digital Underground.

Digital Underground is here in LA, you know, whatever, whatever. Shock G, Pac. And I was like, I'm going. So I went to the show, and I was sitting there upstairs. I got upstairs, and I saw Pac sitting there, and I said, Yo, like, you know, I'm trying to figure this thing out. I'm from the Bay. Can you kind of tell me how to how you did it? Whatever, whatever, you know. So he was dope, gracious, gave me some jewels, gave me some nuggets, and just said, you know, kind of gave me some stuff. And then that's kind of how it happened. Funny story about that was after that, um, talking to Pac. This white kid comes up to me and he says, Man, do you know Tupac? And I was like, nah, I don't I don't know who Tupac is. I just kind of met him. And he's like, What do you do? And I said, Man, I'm trying to be in the record business. He's like, Well, I sing, and I'm like, Oh, dope. He's like, I write song I said, I write songs. We should try to figure something out. And the kid was right, Robin Thicke. So my God. did you write songs at the time? I was learning how to write songs. Because I was like, was that just something you said? It was like a manifestation moment? It was a thousand percent manifestation.

Yeah, I was like, I'm trying to be in this record business some way, somehow. I'm not going back to the bay. Damn. So so what was the first song that you and Robin uh Thicke wrote together? I don't even know. Rob was a much better songwriter than I was, definitely at the time. Because he could play. So, you know, I could, I was a lyric melody guy, and Rob could play, and Rob was uh at the time, he our favorite singer was a guy named Brian McKnight, right? And so we used to call Rob and Brian McWhite. Rob, Rob would get on the piano when the girls would come over. At that time, honestly, we ended I ended up spending the next summer and the next year, probably just me and Rob was just chasing girls and throwing parties. And you know, we had a we had a whole routine, you know, we would get the girls from the club, we'd have them come over, Rob would get on the piano and start singing, and they'd be like, yo, who is this white boy that could sing like this? And we had a whole thing. And so that was our call, you know, we would always just throw these. We used to call them soirees. We would throw a soiree. And we would throw a soiree and we'd have a bunch of girls come over, and we were just having a good time.

You know, at that point, my mom figured out I was the loser, and I was like, I'm not going back to school. I had to get a job, I had to get a job at some collection agency of my life, was whatever, but it was part of the journey, man. Did you and Robin Thicke have some songs together? I think we didn't really write songs together, but um, because he ended up going and signing to Brian McKnight and getting interscope and with uh Andre Harrell, his thing and kind of doing his thing. So we never wrote songs together, but we were in a group together for a little while. That's hilarious. Yeah, absolutely. That's funny that so Brian McKnight was one of his favorite artists, and he ended up getting signed to him. Yeah, he signed to Brian McKnight. That's amazing. Shout out to Robin Thicke, a name I hadn't heard in a while, but that was yeah, that was his idol, man, at the time. You know, Brian was, you know, vocal, you know, back we we came, we came up in the business when you had to really sing sing to be in the record business. You had to, you had to be able to sing. Yeah. Right. Henry, we've entered a final segment of the podcast. Oh shit.

Oh shit. Take a sound. What's this? What's this? What is this, Tab? Tab, it's time to buckle up because this is the Rapid Fire Rampage. Let's do it. It's gonna be three sections. I will explain them as we go, starting with some short answer questions. First of all, how are you doing? Blessed, brother. Glad to be here. Love it. What are the top three traits you look for in a developing artist? I say this to people all the time. I say you have if we're God bless us with our own fingerprint, right? And that's that's your unique thing, right? We don't have the same. So you should have your own unique thing. We have our own fingerprint, you should have your own unique thing. Marshall Mathers, there was no Marshall, You know, you found a kid up in Detroit. There was there's no other Marshall Mathers. It could never be another one. He had his own thing, right? So a fingerprint. Your own fingerprint. That's one. Yeah. Two more. Um what's your another unique thing? Because I could, you know, I'm not even trying to cheat on this answer, but I think that sort of encompasses it because your own unique thing is your own unique thing.

And that could be one of many things from your look to your tone to your aesthetic. You know, listen, left eye had a band-aid under our eye. You know, what I'm saying, like, people had their own thing. You gotta have your own thing. Valid. We'll accept it. Like we'll accept it. I think it's fire. That's great. What are your go-to studio snacks? Go-to studio snacks, peanut MMs, gummy worms. Clase Azul Reposado. Actually, I've I've grown up now. I got a little more money, so and Jayo. Oh. You got me on Jayo. damn. Big baller on the next one. Let's go. Let's go. Dale. Let's go. Tab, what makes a song, and we've kind of hinted at this, but I just want to get like a one solid yeah. What makes a song undeniable? Uh a great hook. Emotion, whatever you're trying to convey, if it's the club, if it's sex, if it's anger, emotion, or if it's fun. Um, I wanna feel whatever you were feeling, whatever you were trying to, whatever you were feeling, I wanna feel that.

So good. You've just been appointed supreme leader of the music industry with unlimited power to do anything. What is your first order of business? Great question. Controversial answer. I'm limiting the amount of releases you can as a whole, the record industry can put out a year. I love that. Oh man. I think it's great. I love that. Gary Vee's talked about a social media platform where you can only post like once a week or something. You know, I think people would be a lot more intentional. Yeah, I just think, I just think it's like, you know, the NBA has 428 players in it. We just had a draft last night. In comes the new class, outgo people. They're not gonna add more, they're not the roster's 15 people, they're not gonna make a roster 18 people. Yeah, or add tons more teams. They're not adding tons more teams. What you gotta keep the product great. Yeah. NFL has always been X amount of weeks. 31 teams. Yeah.

So good. Tab, what is one non music skill every artist should learn? Oh, that's dope. What's a non music skill that every artist should learn? Wow, I love that. That was dope. I like that question. what do you want to fucking cookie? I like that one. I heard. That was a new one. I'm a food guy, right? Yeah. I think I think and it's a tequila guy. And a tequila guy. Yes, I'm a serious tequila guys. Listen, I you know, I I think artists should be willing. This is about being coachable again. Okay, it's back to it. I went out with many artists at the time, and you know, you take them to a sushi restaurant. I've never tried sushi. I don't want to try that. I don't want to You should try everything. Ooh, even food. Even food. So being just the skill of being open. Being open. I love that. You heard it here first. Last one of the short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Ooh. What's my favorite word? Bitch. Man, too short would be a legendary interview.

That would be a good one. Yeah, That's Too Short. That's a Bay Area legend, huh? He Sure is. Do I ask him that question? I think I definitely have to ask him that question. Obviously. We'd go so viral, bro. That's great. Part two is be this or that. I'm gonna give you two choices. Dope. Just gotta pick one. Starting with Lyrics or flow? Lyrics. Drums or melody? Melody. Drums or flats. Uh drums. There's always that moment where they're like, Oh, we're talking about chicken wings. They thought you were dumb and repeated the same question, but really they didn't hear it, right? TikTok campaign or YouTube docuseries. Oh, YouTube docuseries. Gut feeling or backed by data? Gut feeling. Grammy or Billboard number one? Billboard number one. Babysitting your kids, Frank Ocean or Alessia Cara. Alessia, she's sweet. Sorry, Frank. Burnout or boredom? Uh burnout. Small cap venue headlining tour or primetime festival slot.

Easy. Small cap room. Headlining tour. LA or Atlanta? Don't do it. Don't do it, Dad. Damn. Don't do it to him. That's Atlanta. Okay. It's Atlanta. And I'm a West Coast dude. ATL, but the Bay is different. You see, you just say the bay. Atlanta. Okay, true. Yeah. I guess I saved us on that one. Yeah. Banger or ballad. Oh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Mm. Mm. See, you know, what I'm gonna tell you something. A ballad can be a banger. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. See what he did there. He flipped it. He thought you got his ass, bro? Does that mean ballad? Banger. Oh yeah! He flipped it again. God damn. He doesn't want no bullshit ballad, bro. He wants the banger. That just happens to be a ballad. Last one of the this or that. Oh man. Become a full-time artist or leave the music industry forever. Me?

You. We're asking you, Tab. I'm out. Who's gone? I'm on a PGA world tour. I'm a golfer. Oh, man. I'm on a corn fairy tour. I'm golfing. We'll start you at the corn fairy. I'm on a corn fairy tour. golf. Yeah, we know you're handicapped, Tab. Exactly. Let's crawl before we walk. You might want to start rapping, my friend. Last section is the word association. I'm gonna say one word. You just give me the first word that you think of right off the top of your head. Let's do it. There's no correct answers. You're only judged on speed. Okay, wow. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Starting with music. Love. Content. Hate. Hit. Special. Spaghetti. Good. Top line. Frank Ocean. Stevie Wonder. Ooh. Whoa. We'll uh allow the audible. Frank, he just did you dirty. Stevie. Streaming. Necessary. Cockroach.

Hate. Independent. Uh Discovery. Podcast. Too many. Oh man. That's just rude. Sorry. It's like talking to an artist and then being like, artists. You're like too many. We've had too many execs on this show. I think you need to get more artists in the name. Yeah. Oh, got me back. I love it. That's a good counterpunch, right? I usually say I will not stand for any AR slander on this podcast, but fuck A&Rs, bro. In case you can't. Too many ARs. God damn. I love it. Just a few more here. Nebraska. Uh Cornhouse Football. Brand. Nike. Purple. Prince. Ownership. Necessary. AI. Inevitable. Personal. Pleasure. It's going for personal legend there. Good try. I missed it. I missed it. That was a plug for your Instagram, right? Which came from the book Alchemist, but yes.

Oh, cool. I didn't know that. This has been the last executive for a while. Because we're sick of your type. Damn it. Damn it. Damn it. What an interview, man. What an interview, man. As always. Please like, comment, subscribe. We're here each and every week, or as much as we can bring you the most valuable interviews. I'm glad. This was fun. Until next time, Henry, what are you doing? Getting out of here. Appreciate it, Ted. Likewise. Thank you.