BernieGetsYouPaid Interview: Negotiating $20 Million Record Deals | Working w/ 21 Savage -

With the tag Bernie Gets You Paid, people say, Wait, I need to be with her because with her, I know I'm gonna get some money because that's the word on the street. Bernie gets you paid. I want to know how I get paid in this business. And I said, join the team and I can show you. The One More Time Music Podcast. Genuine Conversations with Genuine People about Music. Hosted by Henry with a three and playback Ben. We're from Bemo Coops to Piss off. Tomorrow Distant one more time. Part there, one more time. Pine Sheila, one more time. They find that one more time. One more time. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back for another episode of the One More Time Podcast. I'm your host, Playback Ben, here with my co-host. H3, no Hummer. H3, who do we have in the hot seat today, my friend? Welcoming in on episode 74 of the One More Time Podcast. You know her from the real housewives. It's Kenya Moore. Wait, what? Exactly. I don't think so. We were hoping again. We were hoping you knew who that was.

One more time. One more time. In all seriousness, we have the bag collector, your favorite entertainment attorney. We got Bernie Gets You Paid. Bernie. That's the word on the street. Yeah. She's known to work with what? Tay Keith, Lotto, Jetson Maid, Nudie, Savage, Baby Tate, BRS Cash. Yes. Doughboy. Yes. The list goes on. and on. The list goes on and on. Cheese Beats. Let's go. Let's go. Yo, Yo dog. Yo, Dogg. Yo dogg. Nice. Yes, yes. We like Yo Dogg. Yeah, I think you have a song with uh Surf and Yo Dogg. Surf and Yo Dogg. Do you know Surf? He's he recently signed a deal with Jetson. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So he's the recent addition to the Boy Meet Space team with TP. Yes, yes. They have a great crew over there. And it's like every week it seems like there's a new addition. Yeah. Well, Surf is the latest. he's the hottest, you know. For now. He's today's today's news. Yes.

Um, so you mentioned in another interview that, you know, maybe we should have a work for hire contract for this interview, where so you don't like sue us for the footage at some point down the road. Can we get a verbal agreement that you won't make us you know take this down? Or um sure, sure. You I verbally agree. Okay, thank you. And that's legally binding. Yes, it's legally binding. In the state of uh Georgia, yes. Yes, it is. Verbal contracts are legally binding. Perfect, perfect. So Bernie gets you paid, you know, and and the bag collector, I guess for that matter, you know, branding for you. Like, how important has that been, do you think, to the success of your career and like where you've gotten today? Because it's an amazing brand. It's incredible. I do appreciate that. It's actually a brand that I've been using uh right before the pandemic. And uh this year marks my firm's 20th year in existence. So congrats. Thank you so much Big anniversary. I do appreciate that. Two decades.

Yes, two decades. Hell yeah. Wow. So the uh branding has played a part, but not a major part, because I have been around doing deals from the very beginning and had the opportunity to work with legendary acts. So um, but as far as branding in business, it's extremely important because if you don't have a brand, then it's difficult when it comes to marketing yourself. Do people how do people see you? How do they recognize you? How do they remember you? And with the tag Bernie Gets You Paid, people say, Wait, I need to be with her because with her, I know I'm gonna get some money because that's the word on the street. Bernie gets you paid. I want to know how I get paid in this business. That's Amazing. And I said, join the team and I can show you. Ooh. Amazing. So is this a self-proclaimed brand? Or how did you get the name? Well, it's interesting. I was uh at I had a a string of deals that I was doing back to back.

It was like ridiculous when it came to recording deals and publishing deals. It was just back to back. It seems like every two weeks I was closing these big deals. And I was talking to a friend of mine, and he said, Bernie gets you paid. And I started laughing. And he said, And you know, you really need to, he said, you need to use that. Start saying Bernie gets you paid, and you'll just see the difference. And I said, Are you serious? He said, Just try it, just put it out there. And he said, I don't want any credit. Just put it out there. I put it out there, and people started using it. Hashtag they were retweeting it, reposting it, and just saying it themselves. Bernie gets you paid, Bernie gets you paid. And I said, Okay, time to trademark. Yeah. Bernie gets you paid. So it's trademarked and protected. Of course, you know how to go about that the correct way, of course. Yeah. So it wasn't like uh um I it was self-proclaimed. It's just people were just saying, you know, you need to get with Bernie. Bernie gets you paid and street proclaimed.

Street proclaimed. Street proclaimed. That's amazing. So, you know, you mentioned this run that you had that kind of led up to your friend jokingly saying that. Correct. How how did it feel to be on that like winning streak? And I feel like you're still on it at this point. Every time I look, you're posting some new deal that's like just got this deal closed, whatever. Yeah, I have several on the table. You know, I was uh talking to someone and saying, I oh gosh, I got at least I get probably a good 12 to 15 a week. Wow. It sounds like so much, so many. Like it's a lot, it's a lot. Is it just you or do you have a team? No, I do have a team. Obviously, I can't do all that by myself. No, I have a team. What do you look for in someone that's joining the you know, Bernie gets you paid uh organization? That's a very important question. What do I look for? Sure. It's really uh talent that understands their vision. And I tell them, I say, if you have a vision, I can help you mold it. If you don't have a vision, I really can't do anything for you because I don't know where you're trying to go with this. People say they want to be in the entertainment business.

I want to be a rapper, I want to be an artist, I want to be a producer, but they have no idea how or what what it is that they plan on doing with it. Okay. There's one thing to want to be something, there's another another thing to do it and set goals and steps in place as to how you're gonna achieve it. Okay. So if you have that outlined and you have an idea of where you're trying to grow, then I can look at it, review it, and say, okay, well, we need to alter this because the way the music industry is today, that's not gonna work. Or okay, this is gonna work, but you need to add you need to uh um amend the plans using X, Y, and Z. Sure. So I can help in that regard. Does that go for like both team members and clients? Like that same like oh yes, it's the same, it's the same with methodology when it comes to uh business in general, you gotta have a plan. Yeah, if you if you if you gotta have a plan, you have to work the plan. And if you don't work that plan, then things are not gonna happen.

So if you're just coming into the game with no idea how you're gonna move about, then how are you gonna move forward? You don't know which which direction you're gonna go in. Sure. So, you know, I I mentioned some, you know, massive household names that have trusted you with their careers, right? As far as like at least from like the legal side of the house, right? They have teams, of course, but you're an integral part of some pretty heavy hitters teams. Well, understand that uh a lot of my clients came to me in the very beginning when they didn't have anyone. See, that was gonna be my question. Was that like how did you gain the you know, trust of obviously we look at them now as massive clients, but so so yeah, tell us about actually when they maybe entered your you know vortex or your world. how do you even find them kind of thing. That's an also interesting question. Uh I have a uh uh feelers out there, people that I've worked with in the past, they trust me and trust my judgment, and they will recommend me. So my business has been 98% referrals.

And you have some people who reach out to me via social media and also during a Google search, they say when they Google entertainment attorneys, my name comes up. And um, but the majority of my clients came to me through referrals, and mostly people I've worked with in the past. So uh people like Rico Books have referred clients to me and shout out Rico. Yeah, shout out Rico. Um Measy and Key, and just a lot of people have just referred clients to me, and that's how it happened. There was a new artist that they may have found, or new producer, or uh even when it came to someone like Tay Keith, I met him through uh my son. My son was a college student with uh, you know, attended Howard University with Tay Keith's manager, and Tay Keith's manager Cambrian knew that um my son's mother, me was that was an entertainment lawyer. So he said, I'm working with this producer, and uh he has this song that's about to come out called Look Alive, and he needs a lawyer.

Yeah, he does. and Drake is featured on the track. So my son sent me a text message, and he said uh I may have a new client for you. And I said, Who is it? And he said, Oh he said was uh Drake's on the track. You're like, I don't care his name, actually, just send him over. All you need to know is that Aubrey has a verse on the song. So yeah, and um fortunately for me, I've been working with producers since the very beginning. My brother um was one of the original hitmen for Bad Boy, and amazing and he created a lot of hits. So early on in my career, I had a shout out those. Can you can you let's go ahead and at least drop a few, come on. Yeah, yeah. Some of the the songs that he did. Oh, sure. Hypnotize for Big E. Okay, you don't even have to keep going. Stop there. Everyone just know that that was Bernie's brother that was a part of that record. Love like this before for by Faith Evans. Come on, keep going.

Uh All Night Long by Faith. Um, Money Power, Respect by the Locks. Oh man, wow. Yeah, I love the Lox. Yeah. So he did a little, he he also did Where I'm From um by Jay-Z, which is legendary. Get out of here. So um I grew a niche practice working with just music producers and songwriters early on in my career. So I had an understanding of what producers needed. And um it just uh that has always been part of my practice working with producers. So when new producers come in, I know how to uh I know what they're looking for, what needs uh we need to uh address to make sure that they are ready to move forward in the game. Were was that like do you think that was like a differentiator for you pretty much? Like as far as what were there a lot of other attorneys that maybe found that producer niche or was everyone chasing artists as their clients? I think people were chasing artists, yeah.

Yeah, that's how I looked at the story. I was like, man, like she probably I don't know if it was intentional or just like happenstance because you know your family ties was on the production side of the house, but I'm looking at it like that was fucking genius. Just like some managers that have like carved out a space to manage producers, that was also a new thing. Everyone wanted to manage the artists, yeah. And so for a long time I didn't represent any artists, and it wasn't really until like uh I believe uh around 2015 when um key came to me with 21 Savage, yeah. And said, Look, I have this artist for you. Actually, I was working with um with Man Man Savage. Are you familiar with Man Man Savage? Yeah, of course. Absolutely. Of course. And also Key, big key Fat Man key. Fat Man Key. Fat Man Key, yes, yeah, with the exclamation mark. And because they were like a little clique and um they brought Savage along and said um he needs a lawyer. They're like, We have this Englishman, so he does good trap rap.

So yeah, they said he was amazing. And when uh he came to my office, we talked and we hit it off immediately because uh we had some ties. So yeah. What like to me, having negotiated on the behalf of producers, like is that mentally like at odds? Like are those two things at odds, like going from representing- Conflict of interest conflict of interest in your brain, or is it not really like no, it's not like that. I just think um the personalities are different. Uh producers are different than artists, uh, unless you have a producer that's trying to be an artist. Sure. That's very common. it's just different. Producers are just different in terms of um their personalities and their needs. Uh I think artists artists need more attention. Uh producers are Whiny old artists. they're more self-sufficient. Uh and freaking babies. No, you all are saying that.

That's not me. You all are saying that of course on the record. Actually, Woe, who's Rico Brooks's like right-hand man and like partner. He manages Mexico Dro and some other producers. Woe is the one that said it on like episode six of this podcast that artists are babies. He said it. I'm just quoting him, actually. We've been quoting Woe this whole time. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it's it's uh it's interesting. It it really is. Um producers will just really call more so when they're in the studio. I had a situation early on in my career where a producer called me at three o'clock in the morning, and he was in LA, and he just made a hit record uh what he called a hit record, and he's like, he was so excited. But generally, uh you have artists that will call you at three o'clock in the morning versus the producer. No, that's that's facts. So this is what we're deeming Ladies month. On the one more time, podcast. October is Ladies Month. October is Ladies Month for us because we- month. Exactly.

Yeah. Because it's Ladies Month. Oh, what a month. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Because we you know, we looked at our our guests and we were like, damn, bruh, like we haven't, you know, shined enough light on the females in this music shit. For sure. Right. So like as a woman. Yeah, let's just say don't say females, let's say women. Women. What is what is the wrong thing about that? I would like to unpack that first. I wouldn't be offended being called a male. Girls. Why is that? a thing? Well, it's more like you say, like, The species, male, female. So it's too scientific. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Okay. Interesting. I'm like with your double X chromosomes and shit. Okay. Remember, remember like the red flag uh trend that was going around? Like if he says female. Guys that call them females. It was like a red flag. Okay. It was like Yeah. Yeah. But no, we want to learn No. We want to understand. Women as a woman. As a woman, yes. Not a female. As a woman in the music industry. Like, tell us about, you know, do you feel like that has impacted your experience?

Or you know what I mean? Like, if so, how you know how, right? Like being a woman in this business, how do you think it's impacted your story? Well, you know, it's interesting. Uh early, I always go back to early on in my career because I had to build my career brick by brick. Uh and I recall reading online, uh, because I used to write, I had this blog that I would write, and it was called Ask Bernie, a little column. Uh uh, I don't know if you recall PMP worldwide, but it was a online publication that was put together by Conrad DeMange, who was one of the ARs for Bad Boy. And uh they had a lot of producers and artists that were part of this um PMP worldwide where they would connect them with the record labels. And I would write a column basically addressing an issue like a Dear Abby issue they would write in about it was a question related to an issue in the entertainment industry. For example, I loan this track out to an artist, but now a big artist, a bigger artist wants to use that track.

Is there a way that I can get that track back? Something like that. So I would say it's like a forum almost yeah but I wouldn't write the I would not use the person's name that introduced the question. Oh it's like anonymous QA type of thing. Exactly so I would write the question and I would answer the issue and it was called and so it was called Ask Bernie. So that's how Ask Bernie came about. That's dope. And um so I lost my train of thought that quickly being a lady. Okay so um a woman so basically people would um I noticed when I Googled my name people would reference me a lot and then you would see someone would say oh well she's she seems to be great she seems to be very knowledgeable but women are emotional. So I I would prefer to have a male or man represent me on a deal because I know that if he really needed to get ugly he you know he would jump on a table and and and make his point. And it was that was funny to me.

Like that's ridiculous because when it comes to negotiating deals, it's not about how you know being the loudest person in a room. Because from what I've learned, uh, being the loudest person in the room is usually the weakest. It's not about how loud you are, it's about how knowledgeable you are. And knowledge is is the truest essence of being in terms of being able to connect and make a stance. Um, and if you know knowledge, if you're knowledgeable, you can get your point across. So that has what it's been for me, not being a woman. I don't concentrate on being a woman. It's more about how do I be the best that I can possibly be? And how do I represent those that are coming behind me? And how do I get my point across? How do I connect with people that I'm addressing? How do I make a difference in the conversations that I'm having?

So to me, that's more what it's about in terms of moving forward in this business as a woman, and as any person like a man would, would think who is trying to get a point across. So uh it just happens that I am a woman, and it just happens that I'm African American woman, and I am a minority in the business. So double double minority. Double minority, yes. So has it been easy? No, it has not been easy. Uh I've had situations where uh I recall people not calling back because I didn't, they didn't know who I was. So it's like, oh, I'll get to her when I when I want to get to her, if I want to get back to her. So it's not until you do something that's recognizable and people want to reach out to you. Now they're trying to build a relationship with you and they feel the need to connect, or because of who you're working with, they have to connect with you. And then things start changing because you're now one of them.

And you now stand on the same stage as them. They see you a lot different. Yeah. Would you say reputation is pretty important in your book? reputation is very important in this business. How people perceive you based on what you've done and your legacy, how you were able to move, touch, and inspire other people. That's extremely important. So without naming names, unless you can, what are some of the like highest stakes deals that you've been a part of? Like if you can just throw out, you know, I just want people to understand the perspective that we're like, you know, like the level that we're dealing with, right? Like, what kind of figures are we talking? 20 million? 20 million dollar deal. Okay, let's use this as a perfect example, right? Can you name the the client? Of course not. Damn it. Come on. Bernie, we needed a one-more time exclusive. What? Okay, well, I didn't know it's because some of these deals are public. I'm a lawyer, okay. So it's really a it's we do have confidentiality, uh, ethics rules that we have to abide by. Now, if a client talks about a deal and makes it public, that's different.

Now the game has changed because they're the ones that reveal the information. Um, they got Twitter finger, So, yeah, Exactly. But no, there's just no way in the world. Oh man, Man. okay. Well, see, you're trying to get Bernie D Barr? She's legit. Right. God dang, man. That was my master plan, Henry. Um, okay, but let's take that one, right? Like, because for me, I'm listening to that and I'm like, oh shit, like the negotiation process for something like a 20 million dollar deal. I'm thinking like epic law movie TV show type shit where it's like standoff, like stare off at the you know, negotiating table. Like what is it actually like? Well, it's really more about um it's it's it's not across the table. It's really everything's emails, conversations, and it takes a while. It's not uh something that closes in two days or a week or two weeks. What takes so long, would you say? Well, uh there are a lot of nuances because you want to make sure that uh the rights that are being negotiated is something that your client is willing to give up, or uh in in terms of the the money, everything matches up in terms of the obligations of both parties, uh the monetary value of the deal, um, what happens if something goes wrong with the deal?

Um, are there any remedies on behalf of your client? Um the term of the deal, how long is this is this forever? Is there a a time where it ends? So there are different things you have to consider when you're negotiating a contract and points of interest and the benefit and how beneficial it is to your client. Uh so it's not just the money. A lot of times people only just look at the money, and um it's more than that. And also you got to consider are there contingencies on the money? So even though you have a dollar value, is everything paid up front, or is it paid over a period of time? And is it paid based on certain things happening? Are there conditions on the payments? So I want 20 million in ones bagged up in however many double bags it takes. So, you know, as far as like the client interaction throughout that, you said it can take months to negotiate like a deal that size, right? Or just really any deal.

How how's the negotiation or how's the interaction with your client, right? Like, are you constantly like daily giving them updates, or do you kind of like keep them a little bit to the side until you make some problems? You know what I mean? Yeah, definitely. No, it's not a day-to-day interaction. It's more so um, it becomes more uh regular in terms of day to day when the deal is about to close, when you're finalizing everything and you're going through the last bits of the points uh to make sure that you know everything is understood, and uh then there it's about to there's about to be a signature presented. Yeah, but uh in the beginning, it's you know, it's uh you let the client know what the deal because everything starts out with a proposal. Okay, there's a conversation, then there's a proposal, and then you negotiate the proposal, and then you may say, okay, well, no, the proposal the proposal isn't what it needs to be, and then you may uh there might be another month that goes by, then they'll come back with a new proposal. So that's you know that, and then after that, once you agree to the proposal, then they present the long form.

Then the long form, you got to go through all the different nuances of the legalities, uh the legalese of the terminology that's used in the agreement, and you want to make sure that's right. Does your client kind of with with their team and like with your guidance, do you guys kind of arrive at like a yo, if we can get to this, like slam dunk, but if but if we have to get to this, we're good. Like, you know what I mean? Do you set kind of like high and low bars or something? You get like you you do that during the proposal phase. Okay. Okay, so that's done during the proposal phase because before you get to long form, you already know what the uh bottom line is gonna be. Okay, like the just like the meat and potatoes of it, like the kind of like highlights. during the proposals. Okay, yes. Yeah, no, that's interesting. And then is it true? A good deal is when both parties feel like they've been screwed. Henry, I feel like that's a good one, right? That's what makes a good deal. Oh my goodness, I can't believe you said that.

What? So basically what you're saying is that's a good idea. Yeah, it's please summarize this shitty logic. Basically, what he's saying is okay, there are different styles of negotiating, right? So you may have a style where um where you you um you avoid conflict or you you well, basically you avoid everything that is going on in a in the negotiation aspect. So you're you're that's someone who's talks in circles, okay. Then you have the style where you uh you agree to everything that's being said, so because you just want to be at the table. You just want the opportunity. So you just agree to whatever is being presented. And then you have the the compromise where both sides are basically giving up things, um, and they may not want to give it up, but because they're trying to close the deal. So that's more so what he's saying, more like a compromise style.

Yeah, it's just a it's a maybe a little vulgar way of saying it, but can you repeat it one more time for us, Henry? A good deal is when both sides feel like they've been screwed. Yeah. I think that makes sense to me. Like no, I know. She doesn't like that, Henry. She doesn't like that. No, not at all. You you you basically want to be in a situation where you believe that your client is getting a good deal. And so it's you're coming to the table where everyone is here to win. So we're coming with the win attitude. And that's when you feel like you have a good situation because everyone is winning at something. More so than, and that's more of like a collaborative style. It's like a glass half full versus a fucking glass half It's a negative way of looking at it. That's a collaborative style of negotiating versus the compromise style. Okay. And then you have the competitive style where someone just says it's take it or leave it. These are my deal terms.

So those are the different styles of negotiating that exists five different styles. And what's your style? Well, um, I like the collaborative style because I want to make sure I'm a deal maker. So I want to make sure everybody is is happy. So let's talk about the pros and the cons of a situation. Let's collaborate to make uh a situation happen based on the interest of the parties. Yeah. So I like the collaborative style. How often, once again, without any change, you know, it all depends on who's at the table. Sure. So who you're addressing. So each deal is gonna be different. So you it's not like one style of negotiating, but it's important to understand the different styles of negotiating. Yeah, no, it sounds like you gotta be a little bit fluid and flexible depending on like who you're going up against, type of deal. It's like you gotta know the rules before you break them. Correct. Yeah, Henry, she's not breaking any rules. Okay, I meant to in like a creative sense. Like uh you can't do that legally, it doesn't apply, maybe legally.

Watch your words, Henry. No, but you you have to know who's coming, who's at the table. You definitely know who's at the table and what type of deal is it, and um what you you want to know ahead of time what your style's gonna be. Do you know like all the main players now at this point? As far as like the who you're going to, you're going to, Oh, fucking this guy. I gotta Jack again. You know, yes, that's exactly right. Is it Jack? Is his name Jack? Oh, fuck you, Jack. Oh, his last name starts with an A. Okay. I see what you did. I like, Okay. So Bernie's got bars. Bernie does have bars. A one-two. A one-two. Bernie gets bars. Yeah. I like to introduce myself. So how often would you say that your clients, once again, without naming names, unless you want to, we're here for all the smoke. Um, how often do your clients not listen to what you maybe, you know, like because at the end of the day, it's their fucking decision, right? You can't make them sign or make them wait or make them reject. Like, how often do you kind of walk away, once again, just maybe a percentage-wise of like this percentage of deals, like I told them, but they fucking did whatever they wanted, you know.

Yeah, see, for me, um, it's not about just closing a deal and making money. I got into this business because I wanted to be the advocate of my clients. I wanted to be that person that was getting the best deals possible and getting those that were in bad deals out of their situations to put them in a better situation. That's why I'm doing this. I'm not here just to close a deal to say I closed the deal. So if a deal is a bad deal, I'm gonna let you know it's a bad deal. And of course, they're gonna ask, well, would you sign it? You know, they put you in, they say, would you sign it? And it's like, look, it's not about whether or not I'll sign a deal because everybody's circumstance is different. So you may need to do a sign a deal because you need money, or you may need to sign a deal because this is your only opportunity, nothing else. And or you may need to just walk away in general. So it's really you gotta.

I told you why it's not a good deal. And you you may be getting a bag, but it's not a good deal. And if you sign it, then this could potentially be what happens. So, you know, that's what I do. Uh I I have seen situations where I told the client, look, this is not a good situation, but they felt like um they had to sign it because they've been through certain situations in the past, and that was that might be their only opportunity, or they they needed the money, and they just went ahead and signed it. And to be honest, in situations like that, I don't like my name on the paper. Oh, wow. Yeah, because I know it's not a good situation. So it's like, don't I don't want my name on that paper. So do you actually not like do you actually walk away from it at that point? Do you have an alias? Well, and the thing is an alias. No, Someone else signs it. well, no, there's no, it's just she's got a scapegoat on her team. She has all their information on the paper.

That's all just my my name is just not on there. Okay. Yeah, it has all their information. But on the good deals, your name is on there, right? Of course. Of course. That's what I'm talking about. I believe there's a uh yeah, there's a cool story about a bad deal early on in your life that maybe even got you into law. Is that correct? Oh, yeah. So uh when I was in college, I was in college with my brother, and while we were in college, he had gotten a record deal. And remember, guys, this is the hitmaker we were talking about before, you know, fucking hypnotized and a bunch of Faith Evans and Puff Records and Jay-Z. My brother is Ron Almond Ra for those who uh want to know. Shout out, Ron. Um and he and I um we were extremely close in college, and I saw what it was like being a starving artist firsthand. And you know, just touring and doing the promo shows, not getting any money, and you're going from city to city in a in a little car, and it's just like wow. You know sad, sad times.

Yeah, so eventually um they ended up losing that deal, and I said, wow, I want to go to law school, and it was confirmation for me that I needed to go to law school and try to get the best deals possible for the client just to make sure that I was negotiating the the right terms and obligations that would um be to the benefit of my client. Uh so I love that. That's why I went to law school. And I went to law school only for entertainment. I had no interest in doing any other type of law. I didn't want to do criminal law, I didn't want to do uh uh tax law or anything like that. Um but the funny thing is when people talk about entertainment, entertainment encompasses so much. So it's like some people say there's nothing, there's nothing uh true about entertainment law uh because you're representing artists who could potentially have a criminal issue, or may need to go litigation on on a certain uh situation, or uh may need uh to close uh close on a house. But those are other aspects of law, which I don't do.

I'm a deal maker, that's what I do. So I work strictly with the record labels and strictly with um the publishing companies, strictly with uh doing uh licensing deals and sync deals and in uh TV production deals. So I strictly do entertainment work. What did you want to do before law? Uh well, I thought I was gonna be an artist. Oh yeah. No, and and do you think that that has like in even if it's like subconsciously, do you think that has helped your career as the entertainment lawyer? Yeah, well, see, in high school I studied music. So I understand music and I understand methodologies and things of that nature. So I I believe I have a great ear when it comes to music. And I think that plays into working with successful artists. Because when I hear it, it's like, wow, this is gonna go somewhere. I'll work with you.

Because I represented talent early on in my career and just heard sounds and say, wow, you're musical genius. We don't, we don't, let's not worry about the fee today. You're gonna make some money eventually. I'll represent you, get these deals done, I'll help put you in pocket. And yeah, and that's what happened. Because I, you know, I believed in them and their talent. And um it was I was correct. You know, I I so it's almost like being an AR, a lawyer doesn't AR. That's what that's got the ear. Seriously. Stop. So it's more like chasing that short-term fucking short-sighted stuff. Like if you really believe in stuff, because this music shit, like the money game, it has to be long, or else you're just not gonna like sustain. You know what I mean? And so like that is awesome to hear. I was gonna actually ask you like how are you handling the like financial side of things with some of these artists that you maybe took a shot on. And we just had, you know, Diana Schweinbeck, who we were talking about before, who's friends with Red, and she talked about the same stuff of like even to this day, she might do something off the strength if she like you know, really believes in it and thinks that it's gonna go somewhere.

Where at the end of the day, we all are business people. We want to make sure that at least our short-term investment is gonna be a long-term, you know, ROI, but like, you know, avoiding that like short-term bag that might fuck the deal up because like they just don't have it. Correct. They don't have it, they don't have any money. They don't have any money to pay. So that's why uh lawyers and we charge different ways. There may be a percentage fee basis where it's a contingency, which is a percentage of what they make, uh, or there may be a retainer that we get up front, or like a thousand. Well, the most common. Yeah, what's the most common fee structure? is 5%. Yeah, it's 5%. That's like the standard uh correct. Okay, yeah, five percent is standard. Um there are some jurisdictions where you'll see seven and a half percent uh in 10% if you help make that deal happen. So when I say that, is okay, if you uh were the one who made contact with the record label or the publishing company or or the endorsement arrangement, and because you did the leg work to to make the deal happen, and that you would have point of contact, and you close the deal, then 10%. Yeah, it's like a little finders fee.

It's like we were talking to uh who are we talking about about um if oh yeah, Steve O. Yeah. If he gets a beat, you know, and he places the record, you know, maybe he didn't produce it or he didn't do it, you know, wasn't involved in making the song, but but he was involved in making the song because he was the key part of he made this go here. Yeah, that dot connector fee is at least a five percent. Yeah. Just I think that's what he said is at five percent. Literally, he's like without even thinking about it, and he was even saying he should probably charge more because like he literally made it happen that would never have gotten done if it wasn't for him picking up the phone and like you know, placing the beat for some of these people, but it's like the does the producer want, you know, 45% instead of you know, 50 or zero. Yeah, because it doesn't happen. No, exactly. Yeah. So once again, in honor of ladies' month, I'm gonna keep saying this fucking ladies' month because I'm proud of it. Um, how do you feel about the state of women? And let's talk about hip-hop specifically, because I think that's like the genre that we all kind of live in most. Um I was just at Rory and Mall, the podcasters, they had like a little meet and greet here uh for BET weekend.

And Rory specifically was just ranting about Lotto, saying how like she's got this like perfect blend of like, you know, pop, you know, sensationalism, but like bars, like this girl can wrap her ass off, right? Like, how do you feel? You know, we just mentioned you were at, you know, Tate's release party. Uh, how do you feel about the state of like women in hip hop? Like, I feel like the ladies are killing it. No, it's great. It's great to see. Um, because it's been a long time coming. Uh I recall back in the day where you had Lil' Kim and then you had Foxy Brown and you had Queen Latifah and then all that went away. So now we're at that stage where it's happening again. So I think it's a great thing. It's a wonderful thing because women play a major role in hip hop and need to be seen and need to be heard. We all we have a story to tell as well. Then so why not? Why not give us the platform to do what it is that we need to do?

So it's it's great to see uh women, young ladies really representing and doing their thing and carrying their weight and making a name for themselves. Yes. Yeah, I feel like they're crushing. I mean, Doja, Meg, Cardi, Nikki, Lotto, Tate. I mean, like, God bless. Like it's just like overwhelming. Next in line, Des Dior. Des Dior, yes. Yes. Do you represent Des? I do, I do. Okay, wow. Shameless plug. Yeah. Yeah, She's wonderful. Yeah. I think OG Parker and and Romano had a a record or two on the last project, right? Exactly. Because I was talking to Steve O about that. Yeah, so and I love working with women. Me too. The Taylor Girls, also, is another one out of Atlanta, actually. Who is it? The Taylor Girls. Okay. Yeah. So they had a record back in the day called Stealer Man. But you know, they've been doing a lot of uh influencer work and um they've really uh they have a huge following, but their music is amazing and they're doing everything independent, but the plan is to um uh bring them back into the fold and and make their voices heard as well. I love that.

So yeah, I like working with females too, just uh from a producer standpoint. I feel like they're more open, maybe, you know, to ideas. They can be more collaborative. Maybe men just have like more of like, I don't know if it's an ego thing, I don't know if that's the right word, but they have like a way that they see things and it's harder to like I just find myself collaborating better with women. So I'm happy they're on the rise. I'm glad to hear that. Uh I think sometimes men just can be judgmental when it comes to women and don't give women an opportunity. But uh you mentioned Lotto, she's doing her thing, and in the beginning people um discounted her, and uh now she has made a name for herself and has proven that she can withstand time and put out continuous hits, and that's really what it's about in this game. Absolutely. So one thing I thought you said, you know, in another interview, I believe, that you know, stuck with me is that you know, finding the possible in the impossible or something something to that effect. I'm not sure the exact quote, right?

But like the impossible is actually possible, right? I think you said something to that degree. Do you remember saying this? Well, uh that sounds I don't recall, but that sounds like something uh because I said I do say that generally. Um you have to be, you have to dream the impossible dream. Um because uh, and it's really about you and being present in the things that you want to do, see and happen. And you you have to make the non-believers believers. And that's how it has been for me as well. You know, just being a woman coming up in a male-dominated, a black woman coming up in a male-dominated industry with my own firm. That it it was not possible. And only way it would be possible for me to work in one of the major white shoe law firms. But I had to prove a point to myself that I could do it, and I could have this, I could get the same clients they can get, and I can negotiate across the same tables that they negotiate against. So we talk about this a lot on this podcast because I feel like I mean, an overwhelming of people in music, like us included, right, have this entrepreneurial mindset and like just spirit about them, you know.

What made you want to take the leap of faith into building your own firm when you could have applied for jobs at some of those existing entertainment firms, right? I'm a business person. I studied business in college. My uh undergraduate degree was in marketing. So I did not, you know, I always saw the possibility of me having my own business. And yes, you have a lot of people who think about entrepreneurship, but they really don't know what it takes to be an entrepreneur. It's a lot of time, a lot of hustle, a lot of you gotta have strong work ethic. And it's it's uh it's it's not for the faint of heart. I mean you What's the saying? It's like uh I became an entrepreneur because I didn't want a nine to five, now I work 24-7. Kind of thing. Well, you know what? Um it's really it's really about loving what you do. Because if you love what you do, then you're never working.

So now if you're in a situation where you feel like you are working 24-7, that's a problem. Even if you love it. Well, if you love it, then you don't feel like you're working. Right. So that's the difference. Yeah. Okay. You know I mean? Because I can be, I can be um somewhere in Bali and having conversation. I'm working, but I'm enjoying it. I'm working in terms of I'm talking to you about a deal, and I'm sipping to Mai Tai. Exactly. But I'm on the fucking beach in Bali, baby. it's not where it's like I'm laboring and having, you know, like, oh my God, my back is hurting, that type of thing. Yeah. So there's a difference in how you look at it. So uh for me, it was about building a structure that was gonna work. And when it comes to entrepreneurship, everything starts with a foundation. You have to you have to think business, you gotta think foundation. How am I legally set up?

Do I have an LLC? Do I have a corporation? If it's an LLC is a single member, if it's a single member, uh, are you, you know, how you what I see a lot is uh with LLCs in particular, um they set up payroll. I mean, you know, you you you have to understand the tax implications and the legalities of how these companies operate. And if you're just um if you're not talking to a lawyer, then that can be problematic with for you down the the line when it comes to out of the IRS. So it's it's it's really about understanding what's necessary. Do I have my in addition to my federal tax ID, yeah, my state tax ID number, my am I registered with the department of labor? And I, you know, it's just like so much. Do I have the proper insurance for liability and work man's comp and there's a lot that goes into it? How many artists do you have to do?

And a lot of things that I don't see it's like when you have because artists and producers, you know, they have to think company. Everything you do, there's liability that's involved. So you gotta have a company structure. And I tell clients generally you're gonna have at least four to five companies. So you have the company for your entertainment business that you run all your your contracts through, then you have your your uh company for your writing for that's publis publishing related as long as that you write, and then you have your touring companies when you go out and do performances, then you have your company for touring, I mean, excuse me, for uh merch so when you're selling merch online um or at the tours that's you some people separate that so you have merch that you're selling on tours and you have merch that you sell in online those you know you set up separate companies for that what's the purpose because you you want to make sure you separate your liability and then you get sued you don't have everything all in one company okay yeah and then the other. So it's a protection it's a protection yes exactly you want to make sure that you're protecting yourself and uh even though people set up companies they don't they have one tax ID if you have one tax ID that's just like having one company you know you gotta separate it you you gotta understand what it is that you're doing so talk to your CPA talk to a lawyer make sure you're setting up your business correctly and then you know that's part of the problems that I see in other insurance a lot of people when you go on tour things happen on tour. If you don't have property insurance that's gonna be a problem if you get sued.

Yeah. Are all these companies would you put them under like one like an umbrella like a corporation? Well you can do that. You can uh you have your umbrella company which is just a holding company that no business is conducted through that holding company and you have the other arms of the business which are more so like affiliate um entities of that you better be careful she's gonna start billing you for these fucking questions. Yeah, exactly this is this is not uh uh legal advice that I'm giving I'm just right talking about situations that I've seen she Googled. Now people need to talk to a lawyer, talk to your CPA, make sure those are the two most important um people that you need as part of your team. You need to have a CPA. And I and I and I say a CPA versus a business manager, because business manager, you you don't even need a high school diploma to be a business manager. All you need to know is how to count. But the difference between a business manager and a CPA is if something goes wrong and they mess up your money, you can sue that CPA and they can lose their license. I thought she was gonna say one can count better than the other.

No, but no, it's just the liability issue. Okay, yeah. Whereas with a business manager, um you sue them and they don't have the they don't, you know, they don't have the proper licenses, and you may never see anything. it's a lot harder of a like you may not be able to get your money back at all. Yeah. So obviously you weren't sipping Mai Tais on the beach in Bali, like when you I was in Bali, though. But but like when you first were starting out, talk to us about like what those early just grind days were like it's interesting. Uh I when I moved to Atlanta, I had to go, I'd go to the open mic nights that were at the um Apache? Well, actually, no, the Peacock. The Peacock that was on Auburn Avenue. Oh, okay, yeah. So they used to have it. Yeah, I don't know if you you don't remember that. Y'all were probably too. little. No, but there was like an event there recently, or like at the old yeah, the peacock, yeah. Like years ago, they used to have these open mic nights at the peacock.

I think Kenny Mason's like it's like, oh my goodness, Thing was there. yeah. And um just trying to decipher who was who, because in the entertainment business, everybody wants there's a lot of posturing, and people always everybody represents themselves as being the player. So just learning to weed through the nonsense and who was actually who had decision making power, as well as the talent, because you talent, when you see them, they're also gonna boast, and social media wasn't present, so you couldn't really see what they were actually doing. So they will tell you, oh yeah, I you know, I sold so many CDs, but everything is based on you selling CDs out of your car. How do you know what they're actually selling? Yeah. There was no way to like check engagement. Exactly. They could claim to have however many fucking fans they claim to have. Correct, Yes. And even still, that's still even still tough somewhat in like this digital age, the shit faking, yeah. Yeah, but still it was like probably way harder.

It was definitely harder. Damn. So uh I recall I would travel uh from Atlanta to New York, and back then you actually would sit with the ARs and play music. Yeah. So, you know, you have a 30-minute session or sometimes an hour, it was generally 30 minutes, you would play the songs, and um, they would listen to it and they'll say, Okay, this, you know, we have this artist signed, and this track would go well with this artist. So they would you'd give them a copy of the of the CD, and um they'll call you back and let you know if they got a placement with that particular artist. So the things have changed a lot since then. You don't you don't really sit, you don't go to the offices and sit with the ARs anymore like that. That's not how it happens. Most of the artists are signed to production teams and you work through the production teams and in the management to determine how you can get a placement. So, what are you doing outside of like, all right, clearly I know when someone's coming to the table with a proposal, yeah, Bernie, come on, we gotta, you know, review this, and then you start kicking it into long form, whatever negotiations. Outside of like the stereotypical contract negotiations, what other value like ads are you bringing to the partnership with your clients?

You know what I mean? Because I'm assuming you're doing a lot as far as like networking, whatever, I'd like to hear what you think you you know are bringing to the table outside of just like, all right, here's some legal shit I need you to read. Well, yeah, see, the thing is because I've done a number of deals and I have an idea of uh what these deals are supposed to look like based on the talent that's being brought to the table and where they are, and just helping them realistically see what the numbers should look like. Because sometimes they come to the table with these numbers that are outrageous, and it's like you're not there yet. You know, I understand you believe that you're the big biggest thing since sliced bread, but you gotta help the label or this publisher see that. And based on the numbers, because that's what they look at. Based on the numbers, it's not representing and it's not transferring. So I, you know, I'm there to help them be more realistic as to the deal that's being presented. Um so I will ask, okay, what do you have going on?

Who are you working on? Who you who you working with, um, and what's in your pipeline. So let's take a look at the pipeline and um let's look at the last um records that you did or projects that you did, and how did they perform? And then we can possibly go back to the table and and renegotiate um better proposal terms so that um it would be a better rainmaker day for the client. Yeah. So just helping them realistically see what uh what these deal terms should look like based on what they're coming to the table with. It sounds like you take like more of a personal, you know, like you kind of get to know your clients. Yeah, that's it's definitely uh more that's what it is for me. And sometimes you have scenarios where the managers don't allow you to have any connection to the artist. What?

It's like it's that's the that's a problem to me. It's like, wait a minute, who am I representing here? The manager or the artist? That sounds like an abusive like relationship on the manager and artist's behalf. Well, I just I think it's just them not knowing and understanding. That's weird to me. I didn't know that happened. a lot. The Business is all about education. And the more educated you are, the better off you, the better client you're gonna be for me because you have an understanding of the business. So that helps me do my job a lot better. And uh when you are asking questions, I welcome it because no question is if you if you don't ask questions, that's where the problem comes in. So I want you to ask questions. So no question is a dumb question. You know, you you just you all questions are good, and I welcome them because I want you to learn. And the better again, the better off you are knowing the business that you're in, the better relationship we're gonna have. How much misinformation though is floating around, right?

Oh, tons of it, tons of it. And it's and it's really frustrating, especially when you have a client who starts doing well, you have other people that comes around and they're starting to be in their ear and they're asking to see the deal and they're asking, then they're looking at points and saying, oh well, you should have gotten this or you should have gotten that. But you gotta understand the state that the artist was in when they got the deal. And there's no speculation going on as much anymore, right? There's no speculative deals as much, right? Correct. Yes. Because to your point, they're looking at the fucking numbers at that point in time. That snapshot. Exactly. They're not saying like, they're not like in the old days, like this person's gonna be a star, like as much, you know? Exactly. It's show me the data. Yeah. Show me the data. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So it's it's really about evaluating what's present. And then uh once you get in a door and you are maybe able to make some doors, then it's okay, let's get back to the table and let's look at these terms and let's see how we can move these numbers to the side that's more favorable to the artist. Yeah, absolutely.

Henry, we've entered a final segment of the podcast. Where are we at? Buckle up, Bernie. Bernie, we are at the rapid fire. And we are gonna install a seat belt buckle in that. So when we say buckle up, people can actually do it. Can actually buckle up, yes. Yeah. This is called the rapid fire rampage. It is the final segment of the podcast. It's a three-part rampage. I'm gonna start out, just ask you some short answer questions. Just give me a quick response. Then we're gonna do a this or that. I'm gonna give you two choices. You pick the one that shouts out to you the most. And then ending with a word association, I'm gonna give you one word and you just give me one word, maybe two off the top of your head, right back. So if you're buckled up, hypothetically, we will start with the short answer. Soon to be literally. Soon to be literally. Once we've installed the the belt buckle. Bernie, you've decided to start a rap career. What is your artist name? And you can't say lady B. Tay Money. Tay Money. Isn't there that white girl named Tay Money?

It sounds kind of funny. there is. I'll show you her later. She's hilarious. There is an artist. There is an artist with that name. So let me give another name. Okay. Um respect. Okay. Respect. What is one of the most common mistakes you see artists and producers making in the industry? Not reading their contracts. In the next 15 seconds, invent a sport. Invent a sport. Water volleyball. It might not exist. Let's assume it doesn't exist. We'll run with it. Yeah, no, I like it. Bernie, you've just opened a restaurant in Atlanta. What do you call it and what do you serve? Island vibes.

Caribbean, because my background, I am Caribbean. I'm originally from Dominica. So Caribbean, all uh Caribbean delights from the jerk chicken to curry goat to uh oxtail, rice and peas. Yeah, um cocoa bread, Escovitch, cocoa bread, definitely some patties. Yes. Callaloo patties. Yes. Yes. I would pull up Sounds delicious right now. Bernie, you must marry a fictional character. Who do you choose? Tarzan. She's thought about this one. I was quick. Bernie, how many hearts have you broken? One. Respectable. Yeah. This is more of a philosophical question. Is a thumb a finger? Yes.

You must get rid of three states. Which states gotta go? Utah. Arizona. Ooh. Montana. I feel like Arizona is maybe the only one we haven't heard before. It's like there's all three beautiful places. Bernie's just wiped like the wonders of the world. And like, yeah. She's like, there's not enough buildings in those places. I'm a city girl. Not enough concrete. Yes. Where do you see 85-year-old Bernie? I was thinking about 50 cents in the club. I don't know. Let me stop. Bottle full of bub. I got what you need. Um 85 year old Bernie. I would say doing nonprofit work.

In the club. No. No, it's it's really about how do I add to society. So I always want to put myself in the position where I feel like I'm being a benefit to others. So nonprofit work is definitely where I would want to be. Man, I love that. I thought you should be chilling at that age. Well, the thing is, chilling is um uh a relative word. Well, yes, exactly. Because I I when you talk about like not doing absolutely nothing, to me, that's like nonprofit. I have to keep myself active. Yeah, I want to be and I want to be keeping myself engaged, I want to know what's going on, and I feel like nonprofit work is just the way to do it, and just feeling like you're you're benefiting society in some form of fashion. So I love it. Love that that's really what it's about for me. So yeah. Hell yeah. Last one. Maybe club on the weekends or something at least. Like I don't know. My ties and you know I got to stay fit. Yeah, you go.

How do you talk? We talking about that dance. Yeah, getting sturdy, yeah, sturdy. Yeah, yeah. Last one of the short answer, Bernie. What is your favorite curse word? Mbomba Kalat. Yes, love that. We've never heard that before. No, that's a first. No, we've never had a Caribbean uh person on here. Great, uh great part one. She's doing great. That was fantastic. Moving on to the this or that portion. I'll give you two choices. Pick your favorite. Rap. Atlanta or New York? New York. Rappers or singers? Singers. Artists or producers? Producers. Drums or melodies? Melodies. Drums or flats. Flats. Yes. My girl. Dogs or babies? Babies. Fight club or book club? Fight club.

Damn, I didn't see that one. coming. I didn't think Bernie was gonna go that route. Yes. A squirrel sized cow or a cow sized squirrel. Yo, her face was priceless. A squirrel-sized cow. I guess. That's cute. Yeah, it's cute. For sure. The baby cow is the way. Who wants to see a massive squirrel? That sounds awful. That's the correct answer for sure. There are no correct answers, but that one that was the correct answer. Yeah. Give up driving or give up cheese. Give up driving. Yeah. That would be Miss Daisy. Yes. Perfect. Lose your best friend or lose all your other friends. Well, my best friend's my sister, so lose all my other friends. They're gone.

Peace out. Heavy traffic or slow Wi-Fi. Oh. She got so deflated. They both sound so bad. Yeah, slow. Wi-Fi. I hate. That's just, oh. Yeah. Heavy traffic. At least I can listen to good music. See? Great reason. Love that. Get a face hat of R. Kelly or lose two toes. Lose two toes. That was the quickest response. Fastest one yet. Oh man. Permanently wear a hat that is one size too small or lose one year off of your life. Lose one year off my life. Unanimous. Bro, no one cares about life. on the podcast. I changed that up trying to get people to keep the life, but it's no matter what we say, they're always getting rid of life. Last one is the this or that. It's weird psychology. That sounds painful. Yeah. Yeah. But there's also, but that does sound kind of more painful than some of the other ones. Some of the other ones aren't as painful, but just still like annoying, you know.

Yeah. Just people are just giving away life. Like it's just like fuck it. Take you to take it. Yeah. It's interesting. Last one of the this or that. Get verified on all social media or free tacos for life. Huh? Yeah. I'm not a taco person, because I don't know. Oh, then this one's because it would be are we talking about vegan tacos or any kind of tacos you want. Any taco. Tacos then. Because I mean, I'm not verified. That's not I don't shoot for that. So I'm not really social media. I don't know. You said you're TikTok and doing the sturdy and shit. But what I'm saying is it's not I'm not on there just oh, I need to be verified. Yeah. Yeah, you're not chasing that dragon. I'm there to allow my presence to be heard and um provide knowledge and information to those who seek it. Absolutely. Part two. Beautiful part two. Fantastic run so far.

The squirrel-sized cows. Fantastic. Yeah. It's all gonna boil down to this last section. This is the word association. I'm gonna shoot one word at you and just shoot one right back at me off the top of your head. First thing you think. Buckled up. Ready to go. You got your yeah. Yeah, she's buckled up. Let's do it. I confirmed it. Hip hop. Dance. Jaguar. Car. Money. Trust. Cucumber. Vegetable. Piano. Relaxation. Marijuana. Relaxation. Yes. Amazing. Bernie gets the blunt. Bernie gets you high. Gets you high.

It's way better. Oh, Lord. Family. One word. Love. TikTok. Exposure. Thought she was gonna say sturdy. Sturdy. That's what I was going for. Yeah, I know. That's better, though. Sunday. Funday. I'm excited for this next one. Self-representation. Expression. Oh. Oh, you took it as the oh, interesting. Okay. I meant like legally. You took it legally. Yeah, but that I like that better. She's like idiot. Hurricane. Chaos. Is the next word chaos? I swear to God. That's the next word. Weird.

This has happened a few times on the podcast. Weird. Weird things like that, yeah. Lil. You said Will? Lil. Lil. Wayne. Yo, Everyone has to question Lil. Anytime you say it, they're like, what? Lil Little? Lil. Like, not little. No, Lil. Lil. Lil. L-I-L. Alien. Mars. Album. L P. Yes. Podcast. Information. information. Bernie. Get you paid. Bernie gets you paid. We appreciate you coming on. As always, please like, comment, subscribe. If you fucked with this interview, the bag collector has been in the building. We appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much. Oh, it was a pleasure. I enjoyed it. Thank you so much for having me. Hell yeah. Henry, until next week. What are we doing?

Getting out of here. Getting out of here. Peace.