Mike Norris Interview: Kanye West in ATL | Definition of A&R | Music Publishing - OMT Podcast

I was like, yo, Mike, like, pick how you're gonna live. You can't be one foot in, one foot out. Are you gonna be an entrepreneur? Are you gonna boss up? And if you're gonna boss up, boss up. This is the life that brings me the most fulfillment, the most amount of smile, the most joy, the most freedom. So I'm like, yo, this is this is how I live. The one more time music podcast. Genuine conversations with genuine people about music. Hosted by Henry with a three and Playback Ben. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back for another episode of the One More Time Podcast. I'm your host, Playback Ben, here with my co-host, H3. H3, who we got in the hot seat today. Welcoming in on episode 69 of the One More Time Podcast, legendary recording artist. It's Frank Ocean. Yo, Frank. Yo, yo, yo, y'all ready? When are you dropping again, man?

We've been ready. I don't know if this is the platform to let you know. This is the only platform where we need to go. It's all we want. No, in all seriousness, we had someone who was here last week, but he was off camera with Fireman in the building. We got Mike Norris. Big Mike. Publishing expert, manager, all-time overall, just hustler. This dude he's got his hands in everything, honestly. So I'm excited to unpack what you've been up to, how you got to be where you're at today. So appreciate you coming on, Mike. I appreciate you, man. Thanks for having me. Yes, sir. Sure. So Fireman in general, like, how did y'all even first come to work together? I'm not sure I got the backstory, even on you know, how you came into his world. Man, so that was that was a crazy experience. So everybody knows like when Kanye came to Atlanta, uh, it was a big deal. Like he told everybody, yo, I'm here, I'm running out the Mercedes-Benz Stadium. And me, I kind of thought it was a hoax. I'm like, man, how much money you gotta have to rent out the whole stadium? I'm like, man, that's that's different.

And then I have a friend, Kyle Campbell. Like, he was he was on the podcast. CEO Kyle, episode number five, I think. It's single digits. Yes, he's OG. Crazy. Right. So shout out to him. But yeah, he hit me up. And like Kyle, he's in he's Greek. So when he hit me up, he came at me like Greek people come at you. So he was like, Hey, Mike, I need you to pull up to the Mercedes Benz Stadium wearing all black. Is this how Greek people pull up on each other? Yeah, so I'm like, I'm like, okay, I'm online. I'm online. I got selected to be online. Kyle's the dean. I'ma show up and I'm gonna be online. I don't know if I want to be online, but I'm like, he put his neck out. So I pull up. And then uh, and then like when he at the end of he ended up, he's like, I assume you know what this is for. And I'm like, no. Like, I think I'm about to join a fraternity. Am I getting hazed again? I'm just like, you know what, it's whatever. Like if he invites me to it, it's probably something solid. And I pull up and I was not expecting, like, like I pull up, because I'm in the back of my mind, like, maybe Kanye's here, but he had already done the show. So I'm thinking like Kanye's up and dipping, and this is like something unrelated.

But you know, you're always hopeful, like in the back of your heart, it's like, oh, I'm about to meet Kanye. I'm like, nah, it's that's not what this is. And I pull up wearing the all black, and uh I check in that oh yeah, you're on the list. I'm allowed back in the stadium, and like I'm I'm lost a little bit, but no one's like checking me or saying anything to me because I'm inappropriate attire to all black. So I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna figure it out. And I got to the room, and then like out of nowhere, I just hear this black billionaire talking about I'm the wealthiest black man in America. Whoa, and this is going on a whole rant about how influential and powerful he is. And I'm like, oh, that's that's Kanye West. It can only be one one guy. Yeah, there's definitely a few that could fit the mold, but the way he's describing it, there's pretty much only one person. That's Ye. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm actually in the and like, like I couldn't see him at the time. I could only hear him. He's in the room talking to producers. And I'm like, I kind of want to be in there, but I'm like, I want to, I don't know how long this is. I want to be here as long as possible, but I also want to make the most out of me being here.

So, you know, I was there to be a production assistant and do work, just help out move things around, like whatever they needed. But I'm my mind is my greatest asset. My mind is what allows me to move around as I do. And that's what people value in me, is like my mind, how I think and how I'm able to make things happen. So I'm like, okay, I'm from Illinois. Ye is from Illinois. I grew up listening to him. Stronger is like, that was my theme song all throughout track. So I'm like, man, now like if Ye is in Atlanta, like I gotta, and I'm in I'm in this vortex, the Ye vortex. I'm like, yo, I have to leave with a piece of him. Like I don't care what way, shape, or form, but I'm leaving here with more than a picture. Like me, pictures are kind of corny. It's like I'd rather leave with my name on a check signed by you, or we make some money together, or me and you are sharing some credits. Like, like I wanna, I want to make an impact. I don't want to, I don't, I'm not about clout, I'm about impact. So I'm like, yo, I gotta leave with something. Fireman, he was one of the many producers there. And you know, he was walking around asking people publishing questions, and everybody else is worried about Ye and the album.

Like, they don't they're not fixated on what what this producer needs. I'm like, yo, this is a millionaire walking around asking for help. And I'm like, but I see, I'm like, this is really a millionaire asking walking around, presenting other people with the opportunity to make millions with him. But you know, publishing is such a space that most people don't understand. A lot of people think they do, but it's like it's so complicated. It's intentionally made hard to understand. Yeah. So I was like, yo, I can I can help out. And I was like, I just started answering some questions, and he's like, Man, where you from? Like, like he gave me his number when I started answering questions, he's like, Yo, let's link up after this. And I when I called him, I have a 618 area code that's Marion, Illinois, that's where I'm from. He was like, nah. bro. You 618? Oh shit. He was like, nah, bro. You're not from 618. He's like, what time? I'm like, Marion. He's like, man, where your mama? I'm like, my mom went there. So he was like, nah, bro. He was like, nigga, I went to, you know what I'm saying? Like, we just started buying because his folks are from Carbondale. Like, he's from Chicago, but it's like, like Illinois, it's like, you know what I'm saying? You move around, but you know where everything is. So he had a lot of people from Carbondale. My mom went to SIU, which is in Carbondale. So like we just had that conversation.

He was like, oh nah, we was meant to tap in with each other. And from there, like, like me, I'm all I'm all about adding value first. Like, I don't, we don't need to talk paperwork. We don't need, like, I think this would be beneficial to you. So I just started like doing things that help him out career wise. Because I'm like, he had Ye's management trying to work with him at that time. I'm like, yo, fuck. I'm like, if I want to be a great, I have to, I have to carve my way. So I'm like, yo, I gotta compete against Ye's management if I want to get this guy as a client. So I'm like, yo, I don't know what Ye's management is doing for him. I know what they can do, but what you can do and what you are doing are two completely different things. So I'm like, all right, I gotta earn my spot on the team. And I'm competing against the biggest artist in the world's team. So I'm like, yo, I'm finna do everything I have. So I just started getting him into sessions, podcast interviews. I got I got him a check. Like the second time we linked up, a couple thousand dollars in his pocket. And after that, he was like, nah, like, like this guy's the truth. I go to different studios, your name is known, you're respected. You know what I'm saying?

He he was working with Cyhi, Cyhi the Prynce, and I knew part of the Prince, and I knew part of his team. And so when he was like, yo, I just left Mike, They were like, Oh, Mike, man, Mike, so it's like like just having those relationships really helped me build that relationship with him. Bro, Cyhi's name has been so many times on the fucking podcast at this point, it's a joke because he's like a meme on this podcast. If he doesn't do the fucking podcast at this point, it's a joke. Because he's like a meme on this podcast. He literally is. That's incredible, though. And I mean, how important is it to take that approach? Do you think? And do you think enough people are taking that approach? When you say approach, you mean like adding value first. like making sure that you're actually showing what you can do versus just talking that shit. You know what I mean? I think a lot of people can't. And I think the people that can take advantage of it. They're like, they're like magicians. They're like, oh, let me show you this trick. But they're one trick pony. Like they they they'll get you like one placement or one thing for you, and that was it. Like that took all that they had to make that happen. But you're sold on the magic show. You're like, nah, this guy can do anything. This guy can walk on water if he felt like it because of what you did one time. And so you sign with them, but then it's like, nah, you're on your own, kid.

Like, like that was a that was to win you over. We got you now. You can't you can't get out of these paperwork. So that seems super common in the industry. I bet. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how some people approach it. And and but like I said, those are the ones who can. Most people can't. Like they can't actually add value. They oh man, I work at this. I seen it. That's how I got a lot of my clients. So it'll be people who work at a label, and like, man, I'm at this label, bro. I can get you a placement with this guy, this guy, this guy. And then you get a placement with that artist, and the AR is like, well, they're signed to our roster, so I don't want to lose my job. I can't, make them pay you. I can't, necessarily guarantee you're on the splits. Like, I don't want to lose my job. I don't like, and you get in that in that type of that type of situation. So I think a lot of people don't actually have the power to like turn you up. And then, like I say, it's like the ones that do, they're either gonna take advantage of you or you might fall in that like small, like one percent of guys who actually can help you, will help you, and won't ask for anything. But I think like those guys are the ones that hit like those cat like out of here levels of success because what you give, you get back, right? So, what made you specifically want to work with Fireman, though?

Because I feel like we kind of understand maybe what he was seeing and what you were bringing to the table, like you know, vice versa, right? Like, was it just you did you know his production? Did you hear stuff in that room? Like, you know what I mean? Like, what made you want to actually, you know, kind of start working with him? On the contrary, it was the confidence and the passion. Like, you need both of those to be successful in this because the passion is like, yo, even when the doors getting slammed in your face, it's like, man, I don't care. Like, I you can slam a thousand more doors in my face. This is what I love, and I refuse to live in any other way. And so, like, with a mindset like that, I feel like you're guaranteed a win. But then it's like when you also know, like you walk in the room, not like, oh, I'm grateful to be here, but it's like, I have a right to be here. You're gathering the best in the world, nigga, you better call me. And I'm like, when you have that kind of confidence, I'm like, yo, that's that's that's attractive. I'm like, yo, you you know what I'm saying? I want to work with you because you really believe in you, and now I gotta figure out like where does that confidence come from? And you know, like that that was the initial, like, okay, this was this is worthy enough to get my number and get a meeting, but now it's like I'm actually like I got to sit down with him and hear his music, and I'm like, I'm a fan.

Yeah, I am a fan. Like, you won me over completely with the music because I'm like, yo, I hear why Ye picked you, but I also hear the influence that that you have, like, like now. I see where where other Chicago people are getting it from. I'm hearing his music, I'm like, oh, I see. Like, I don't say everything he makes is a hit, but I'm like, it's solid. I'm like, like his throwaway is way more solid than some references I've heard from other Grammy winning and nominated talent. And I'm in the room with primarily Grammy winning and nominated talent, like regularly. So I'm like, yo, this guy is like he makes me excited about music. Like, I'll hear some things on mainstream, I'm like, uh I expected more from you. But when I hear his stuff, I'm like, yo, this is this is special. Like, do you recommend like if you're gonna start working with someone that it does have to be where you are a fan? Do you think it can work where you're not a huge fan? And which is more important? Do you know what I mean? The confidence, the passion or the talent, you know? Yeah.

Uh I definitely say the confidence and the passion. Or I I'll even say like the ability to work a room. I see like a lot of people who are untalented who are in a room just because people like them. It's like, yo, this is my cousin, or you know what I'm saying? Like, like you, you're gonna find a way to get in the room just off your personality. And it's like a thousand other guys that are better than you, but they don't fuck with them, they fuck with you. So you're in the room. Um and the vice versa, I've seen where someone that I know is super dope, but then I do see them out in the field, right? Yeah, in a room. And if it's not there and they're not working that shit, it doesn't matter how dope you are. Yeah, I mean, at least in my like have you had that experience too, where you know someone's super dope, but they don't have that like it factor in in the whole work in a room where you're like, this isn't gonna necessarily take you as far as it could. yeah, like like I had I have I've had clients in the past where their biggest record came from like I invited them to a session, and all the producers in the session, like vibing, getting to know each other, cracking jokes, playing beats. They're like, Oh, I don't do all that.

And they walk into the other room. I'm like, yo, this ain't no fucking beat battle. Like, this is this is the big leagues, like that guy has 10 platinum albums. That guy, like these are all big level people. I'm like, even if you can't necessarily land a placement today, bro, build a relationship. You get a relationship with this guy, like you might go platinum next month. You might not get this album, but there's other albums that you can get on. But people are like, Well, I don't want to compete. I'm like, you're not competing, bro. Like, if you really love this shit, you're just sharing your music. Like, like these are some talented people that I want to hear my shit. Here you go. Whatever comes from it, comes from it. But like people are so obsessed with winning that they're not like looking at the journey or the ride, or just like, man, let me just do what got me here. And what got you here was playing. Ain't nobody let you in the fucking room by not hearing your you got here from playing your music. So play your music. So I had a client. I had to go in the room. I'm like, yo, there's a gap. They're not playing music right now. Come in here and they play some beats. And when they play some, you're like, oh shit, y'all are hard. I thought y'all niggas were weird because y'all just ducked out, but it's like, okay, you know, y'all, y'all are cool, man.

What's up? Get my number. And then he got his biggest record from that. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Since I haven't been hand holding, that's his biggest record. Like, and I and I realized I don't want to have to hold your hand. Like, I need somebody who can like, you know what to do. Who's moving around and doing it successfully without you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we talk about that a lot. Is that like a manager, no matter how fucking plugged in, how great the manager is, at the end of the day, people gotta fuck with the client. Exactly. Like, because we're not gonna be there all the time. Exactly. Even if you are, it's still weird because they want to actually get to know the fucking person that is supposed to be working with the other people. You know what I mean? So yeah, it's that's that's huge. But I did want to set the stage, right? You got your hands in various things, both music and you know, we met over lunch and non-music related, you know, when it comes to your day to day and and you know, your business. What to set the stage for the rest of the interview, like what do you have your hands in? Like, what are the roles you play?

Tell us about like what you're actually up to in music, and then we can touch on some of the other things that you do as well. But just like specifically in music, like just so everyone knows where your perspective is even coming from. We've hinted at it, manager, whatever. Like, talk to us about what you do. Yeah, yeah. So I do primarily like publishing. That's like the one thing I'd say, like I do better than anybody else. And anybody who watches an interview and you feel some type of way, I can prove it. Uh and it's so hard to figure out. So like that's a that's super valuable I feel like just off rip. Oh that's why I was so excited to get you on because we we have not had a publisher's like perspective and just like a you know pub admin perspective whatever. So yeah yeah definitely excited so yeah publishing for sure is is is you know one of your worlds you have an entity that publishing entity yeah yeah North Center and National agency. So yeah like I just focus on like finding so like when I grew up right when I saw ARs I always thought ARs were everywhere. Like they're they're at the live shows they're in the studio they're they're at this talent show like the ARs are just everywhere looking for that next big thing. And once they find you they they put some money in your pockets and then they're in the studio with you every day trying to trying to like make you a star.

Like that's what I thought ARs are. So that's how I approach my career like I find talent like Fireman or man made or you know all the other guys like I'll find you I'll put it, get you a deal put some money behind you like whatever and then now I'm with you and I'm moving you through all these different studios and I'm building a star. Like so I like to look at myself as like what the AR that I grew up like there's all types of ARs out here and it's like when people say they're AR I'm like what the fuck does that mean yeah I don't what the fuck A and R it is I don't know what the fuck to do like what kind of A&R? because to me like you're a publishing AR like you're supposed to be exploiting the record and explain the record means like I I should be trying to talk to Disney and get you get you a uh the soundtrack. Yeah like I need to try to put money in your pockets at all times using your your your copyrights. So yeah like like so my day to day like like as far as it pertains to music is like I'm very big in publishing, like finding acts, trying to close deals. Um I might not sign anybody to me. I might take them over to Ultra or take them over to you know a different like cobalt or a different label that I have a a solid relationship with.

And yeah, but that's kind of like like doing that talking to different executives coordinating sessions. Yeah, that's a lot of like what I do. And now I'm I've kind of like from that like you you when you work so deeply within publishing you become frustrated with not even within publishing but then music like there's a lot of misorganization and different things. So I like to look at music a holistic sense like BMI for example. BMI tried to sell for $6 billion They hired Goldman Sachs at the beginning of the year to help them sell for $6 billion. They canceled the sale because they couldn't find a buyer for $6 billion. If you had $6 billion would y'all buy BMI probably because everybody has yeah I was like yeah I mean it's one of the only three like big options for you know PROs obviously exactly you'd think it's worth that yeah because they're generating 1.5 billion in revenue annually so it's like yo if you generate 1.5 billion in revenue yeah how about X? Yeah, like four years so I'm like how could y'all not sell for $6 billion like that if that's your magic number how was no one willing to pay that yeah that's concerning and so I look at things like that I look like so what do you think was the issue? Is is music is evaluation of music it's return on investment.

It's like yo if I can spend this $6 billion on BMI uh like you have to get a certain return on that. And so like with music like regardless like a lot of people are headline chasers but head like music is on the decline as far as like the revenue that's being generated like you'll see the headlines like oh just more money than ever being made from streaming or there's more money than ever being made here but it's like, yo, where is that money actually going? Like who's actually getting that? The independents aren't getting that. Especially like if you don't have a publisher, like you don't have a publisher, you have three years to collect your money or that shit's gone. It's in the black box. Yeah, and it's going to publishers who have, and not every publishers is assigned to the black box. Like you have to have like hit a certain metric. But once you hit that, like now you're privy to get that black box money. But you know, a lot of these guys who they're just signed up to BMI ASCAP and they only don't even realize that there's mechanicals out there and sync and there's international, there's just so much out there that you're not touching. You know what I'm saying? That's going to these publishers. So it's like it's just kind of like, yes, there's money being generated, but it's not going to the proper hands. It's going to a corrupt system.

And people who know it's like, oh, well, I have this market share, so I already know it. I'm gonna get X amount from the black box. I'm gonna use this for my employee bonuses or travel or whatever. Like, like, so it's like people aren't trying to fix it. It's like it's a problem that people aren't trying to fix is people benefit off of it. So why it's like our tax system. We have the most complicated tax system in the world, but the people that take the time and understand it can reap the most benefits from it. And then the people that aren't educated about it get screwed over. Exactly. And They keep it complicated on purpose. So I try to make software to combat that. So I worked with this company called Origin. Um, you know, they brought me in. They initially just wanted to interview me to to be a potential user of the product, but I was like, Yep, y'all can do this, this, this, this, this. You're like how would you like to be the vice president? Okay. I'm like, I'll do that. And um, I came on as a VP and then I like really got immersed with the software. So I started working. He went from a focus group to a fucking VP title. I'm just like, bruh, what the hell? Okay, sorry, didn't mean to, I just my brain was just like we're processing.

Oh, yeah, like, you know, what do you think of the way you click this and click that? And you're yeah, VP title, does that sound about right for you? We bring you on, you start tomorrow. So, yeah, what was Origin setting out to do? Like, what was the mission of the company? Automate the entire publishing process and not only automate it, like the registration, but also the payment process. So it was like you know, you make music and then you forget about it. Like just make music and we're registering the record for you. We're making sure you get paid, we're handling disputes, like all of this is automated. So you don't need to log on to ASCAP or BMI ever again. Just ready, like let us know you're putting a record out and you're good. Uh like push a button. And like you, even before you get to the record being made, like when you're about to make a record, like if you're up in the studio with software download on your computer, it's running in the background, and we see everything you're doing, we see what IP address, we see who you sent it to, we're logging it. And you know, we're like, okay, well, Henry just asked for 25%, Ben just asked for 25%, and we're logging that onto the blockchain. If you say no, if if you either one of y'all declined, he's gonna say you declined.

And if one of you decide to put out the record anyway, okay, you can put the record out, but now we have like blockchain verified IP address, like we know when you said no and where you said no, and so we know you're in violation of this. Uh so that's what that's kind of what they were about. Uh I found some issues with it, like like with just me being there, and like with me, I'm always like, I felt like I don't even say how it felt. I was really asked, like, yo, focus all in on us and and what we're doing, or focus on North International. And I'm like, shit, like I really believe in me. Like, I really believe in myself and my ability to make anything happen. And so I'm like, it's not just me picking picking a job or a person over it's like it's like, am I saying I believe in you more than I believe in myself? I can't, I can't do that. I can't say yes to that. So, you know, I ended up picking my company. So, where do you get the entrepreneurial spirit from? Like, were your parents entrepreneur? You know what I mean?

Because that's like that's not that's not bred in everyone, you know what I mean? So, like, where did you even get that belief in yourself to build companies? You know what I mean? Like, was there someone you looked at like growing up or anything? Or just DNA? Yeah, it's like literally hereditary. Like, my like my father doesn't work for anybody, like my grandfather, like like we'll work for the military, like the men of my family would work for the military, get your land, get your crib, and after that, like like people had corner stores. My uncle had like shoes and clothes that he would sell. Uh my father, like in the past, like he had like like nightclubs that he owned. And so it's like like the entrepreneur stuff just ran in my blood. And like me, like I grew up in Southern Illinois, so it wasn't like I like money, and when you're a little kid, you can't get a real job. So like I was always a hustler. It's Like, even like in elementary school, like I would I would go to uh elementary school, I just sell candy. Sometimes like girls would write their number on the binder, and like a lot of the dudes didn't know how to talk to girls. So I just get every girl's number and I just sell it to the dudes for like 25 cents.

Bro. That is I like that an awesome business model for a young kid. Like nowadays that'd be a privacy violation, You'd probably go to jail. But if they caught you, yeah. In elementary school, though, it's like, wow, Mike has everybody's number. I just wow. And like I would come to school, like counting five, 10, 15. like I'd have money. Like at first it was quarters, and then like I stopped selling, like there's only so many girls and so many numbers. So after you sell, it, scale up. Yeah, so after that, I'm like, man, I gotta pick something else. So I started selling like candy, gum, and I I'll buy it on sale. So I'll wait for like Kroger's that they would sell two packs of Stride for a dollar. Um, but ordinarily be like a dollar for one pack. So I'll buy two packs. Like, like I would just my my grandma give me like a $5 allowance every two weeks. And so I go $5, buy 10 packs of gum, sell them for $2 each. Now the next time the sale comes, I have $20 plus my my grandma's initial five. So I just go flip it, flip it. And it's like I knew I was making money when I started buying my own clothes in elementary. Like I bought I bought pants, I bought these Converse sneakers, because I was like, I didn't know Converse had sneakers.

And I bought because they had like those long shoes, but it was like actual like basketball sneakers. I'm like, oh I didn't. I think they were like uh, Dwyane Wade. The Weapons? they might've been Converse weapons, those were like my favorite high top Converse's back in the day. Yeah, so I just started like buying clothes and this different things like with my own money, like that's wild in elementary school. Yeah, because I just don't know anybody doing that. That was yeah, he had like a lemonade stand on crack though, you know what I mean? Like way more intense than just like posted up on the corner. Yeah, so that was just like always in my nature. So it's like because and like the biggest checks I've ever gotten have been from like me. Yeah, like it hasn't been from a job, it's been from like yo, I see there's money be made here, I take advantage of the opportunity, 15, 1500, 10,000. And like like the checks just started getting bigger as I started like understanding like how different industries worked. And so have you ever wavered? Uh like in your confidence in your ability to be an entrepreneur, though. Has that always been as like gung-ho as you're sitting here today, right?

Because you've clearly done a certain thing, but like over the the time building out this company of yours, like did you ever waver in your any imposter syndrome? Yeah, exactly. Like, do you have negative thoughts creep in, or you know what I mean? Nah, because everything was a hard-fought battle. Like, like I don't know. I feel like imposter syndrome. Like, like a lot of people who I personally know that have imposter syndrome, like, respectfully, I'm like, you're actually an imposter. Like, I know I know somebody who, you know, what I'm saying has less to work with than what you had and could kill in your position. Like, they're doing what you do with a company support by themselves. So it's like, and people feel imposter syndrome, I'm like, but it's because you notice people like this. Like, you notice people out there colder. Like me, I genuinely don't feel like there's anybody my age colder than me at this publishing shit. So it's like straight up. So it's just like I'm here confidently. Cause like I come from I come from world of martial arts and the world of band. And like in band, like you play trumpet or sax, like you know, you used to play, yeah. You get you have chair positions and people can challenge you for those.

So yeah. So if your first chair, it's like, okay, shit, nigga, I think I'm better than you. So I'm finna train, I'm finna practice, I'm finna be every day, put in my 10 hours a day practicing, and next week I'm gonna challenge you for your spot. And now it's like, you know, so you might have took it, you might have been cool and keep it. I'm first chair, ain't nobody finna challenge me. Y'all know better. It's like, nah, bro. Like, I want your, I really think I'm better than you. I'm about to prove it. And like, you might've been behind the scenes working while they're chilling. It's like you challenge, boom, you just lost your seat overnight. Like, you over here telling your mom, like, yeah, man, I got the solo at this concert, and somebody took your spot overnight because you wasn't on it. Caught them slipping. Yeah, and and like that's the world I come from. So I've always been like first, second, or third chair, but it's like because of that, it's like, man, there's literally somebody working every day to try to take my spot. And so I had to train every day, like harder than what you're training to make sure my spot's secure. Like you can't, you can't punk me on my spot, you can't, it don't matter if you challenge me, you can't finesse, like, no, bro. Like, I'm gonna beat you on my worst day. And like, that's just like like that's from elementary school up until college.

Like, like the mindset is like, nah, bro. Like, there are people actively out here trying to take my spot, and I need to know everything you know and everything I know, and I need to be prepared for that challenge. So it's like there's no like question of like, yo, can I can I I know I can do this. Like, like I I've made more money than a lot of my peers working for myself. So I'm not it's like, why would I what you're doing doesn't seem attractive to me. It's like like what I'm I like the path that I'm on. Like, yes, I have like obviously you have your rough patches, you're gonna have the months where you can have one month, you make 10 bands, and next two months you don't make anything. You're like, yo, fuck, like what I let me, let me start budgeting, better. I might need to get a second job, and like I'll do that. Like, I'm not too proud to like go and mow lawns or like do whatever to and then all right, cool. I have I made another 25 grand this month. I'm back on, you know what I'm saying? So, but it's always been there. Has been a time where I had to make a decision. I was like, yo, Mike, like pick how you're gonna live. You can't be one foot in, one foot out. Like, are you gonna be an entrepreneur? Are you gonna boss up?

And if you're gonna boss up, boss up, or are you gonna be an employee? And it's like there's nothing wrong with being an employee, like you can still boss up as an employee, but it's like you gotta pick one and run with it. And so I was like, yo, this is this is a life that brings me the most fulfillment, the most most amount of smile, the most joy, the most freedom. So I'm like, yo, this is this is how I live because ultimately, even a job isn't real security. Like, I've been fired several times. So I'm like, and you could be busting your ass and do X, Y, Z, but somebody else at the company don't like you because you're jealous or whatever, and you're gone. So I'm like, to me, the only real security is yourself. Like, I know what I built, can no man take away. No, that's that's inspiring to have like, you know, even for people that are our employees to even have on, you know, usually it's a if you're an entrepreneur, you have a plan B that could be go work for someone if you had to or whatever. It's interesting for you to say that like even employees should have the confidence in themselves to be an entrepreneur. If fucking shit had to shake and you needed to make a buck on your own through your own company or whatever, that you like have the abilities to do that.

You know what I mean? It's it's kind of interesting. Like that's different than I'd ever really heard it, you know, referenced, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because a lot of people pretend, like every real boss I know. I know I know people who they're worth millions today. They slept in their office for a year. They slept in the top of it's like if you really like you might be the boss and have all these people that you're paying. Like you might. I have a friend right now who lives with his parents, he's the CEO of a company, the company's worth 10 million dollars. It generates $2 million in revenue. He has me on payroll, he has other people on payroll. He lives with his mom. That's real entrepreneurship. Like, if I see you out here, but I'm like, you're not a boss. Like, how are you bossed up and you out here doing like there's there's a disconnect? I'm like, either you're underpaying somebody, somebody's not getting paid, or you're not maximizing your full potential. Because every dollar I've seen, like the successful people, they all this shit is going right back to the. I don't care if I gotta stay with my mom. I don't care if I got like like they're all like really about it. It's like music, a lot of people flex and they lie and they're like, you know what I'm saying? But it's like I'm giving you the real.

Like, if you really want to build a million-dollar company, that shit takes real sacrifices. Yeah, no, it's huge. So, you know, you mentioned it a couple times, like growing up in southern Illinois. We're down here in Atlanta. What is Southern Illinois like? Like where you were from specifically, like it's not like Chicago, right? So, like, what what is the area specifically that you're coming from? And then I want to talk about your like you know, uprooting to Georgia, but like from Southern Illinois. For those that have no idea what the fuck that's like, paint us the picture of it. What was the city again? Marion, Marion, yeah, Marion, Illinois, and uh racist. Uh racist would be the first word I used to describe it. Like, I had to fight every day until like niggas realized like I had to fight one on one. Cause like if you're black, it's literally just you being black is like, I don't like you. Like, I don't like you. And if you can't protect yourself, motherfucker, I'm gonna do something about it. And so it was like, like, and like I'm talking about from elementary, like from first day on the playground. You you on it, like you getting beat up.

And so it was like I had older cousins, I used to run to them. They're like, Yeah, man, like we can't, you have to learn to fight for yourself, but we can't keep stepping up for you. So like I just had to learn how to fight. Cause it was like literally like they would beat you up on the playground and the teachers who would do nothing about it. Wow. So like you really had to learn how to take care of yourself. So, like from elementary, I was fighting, and that got me in like my uncle got out of jail. Like, I think I was like second grade, he got out of jail. And when he got out of jail, I'm like, yo, uh, I need I need to learn how to fight. Like it's like this is stressful. Cause it's like even when you learn, okay, I can beat you when I want, they start jumping you, and it's like it's like like being able to, it just gets stressful and it's like a lot. You go to school with that, your mom's like, yo, suck it up. So I'm like, oh my, like this is I can't enjoy recess. Like, like I I look forward to getting detention, so I don't have to deal with this bullshit. And it's wild, like coming from the South. Don't you kind of have this like picture that Illinois should be like free from the racism, you know? Like oh, way up there. Like, they're not racist up there.

The union. I'm like hearing it, I'm like, man, is he describing like Mississippi and Arkansas or fucking Illinois? Like it's just it is wild to know, you know, it's not every day that I meet a black person from the outskirts of, you know, Illinois. You know what I mean? And so understanding that like that shit's as real up there as it is, you know. Of course, I saw it, you know. I my parents grew up in like the South and you know, that whole world. So they saw people going to fucking KKK rallies and shit. You know what I mean? Like back in the 60s, like whatever. Yeah, but so hearing, like in you know, it like outskirts of Illinois perspective, like I don't know. I am I am hearing it just being like, damn, like shit is you're not safe anywhere, like in this country, I feel like literally, and I I'm over here, like, damn, this is bad. And like, literally they said, I'm like, You think this is bad? Wait till you go to Georgia, man. Georgia is way. I'm like, Georgia can't be worse than, can't be. I'm, I'm, I'm thinking like I'm like, what if Georgia? I'm watching all these race movies.

I'm like, what if Georgia is worse than it? Like, what if I see somebody actually hanging from a like you know what I'm saying? Yeah, these are like the thoughts that are going through my mind. I'm like, man, I might just have to tough it out up here. So what took you to Georgia? Music. Like, like I told my mom, I'm like, oh, like I can't, I can't do this. And like, like I said, my uncle got out of jail, I started doing martial arts, and uh that was second grade. Like, so I started doing martial arts, and I said to him, the Emil Wright, and dude was fucking like he changed my whole perspective on what I could be as a person. Like, because I ran into him, and this guy is a former Navy SEAL, played in the NFL, and he runs a martial art dojo, and he's the highest ranking African-American black belt in Taekwondo in the world. Damn. And I'm in this small little town, and and I think that was Harrisburg, Illinois, like right next to Marion. I'm like, yo, the world's highest ranking Taekwondo black belt is right here. It's crazy. So I started training under him, like his his style of training was different. So it was like like it was martial arts, but then he did MMA afterwards, like in the in the in the evening.

So, you know, I would my uncle would be in the evening classes doing MMA, and I'd be in the morning classes doing like Taekwondo, whatnot. So I would learn like the fundamentals of how to fight, and then I actually had to fight like for real. And I tried to do the stuff I learned in class. My coach, this isn't working. He was like, You can't do what you gotta you gotta do it in a way that's gonna work. And I'm like, okay. So that was like my early lesson that taught me. Like, I have to take the shit that I'm taught and make it applicable in real life. And so, like, like Illinois, like coming to Georgia, it was a show called Class of 3000 by Andre 3000. And I was like super talented in music too. And I saw that and I'm like, yo, mom, is there is there really like performing art schools? Like, like an entire school made for people who who like like what I like. She was like, Yeah. I'm like, I like to go to that. I wanna go. She's like, oh, I don't know, that's gonna cost money, that's gonna cost. Take out some loans, son. Yeah, I'm like, yo, better sell a few more of those stride packs of gum, my boy. Get some more phone numbers at 20.

You made that one time. Ain't gonna pay that. bill. You're going to need Rihanna's phone number to sell. Yeah, right. But yeah, so she was just telling me, like, I'm like, dang, I'm not gonna get the check today. I'm gonna find my way to get to Atlanta. Cause I'm like, outside of like this watching the show, I'm like, man, there's celebrities out here. There's there's opportunities out here. Like, like, I'm like, just in the image that was portrayed of Atlanta, I'm like, I feel welcome there. And my aunt, she she, uh, she was in the army and she was stationed at Fort Benning, which is in Columbus, Georgia, and I would go there a lot. And like I just see all these retired old black veterans having a good time, people playing ball in the front yard. Like, it just it was a vibe, like it looks so peaceful. It's like a lot of street stuff that goes down in Columbus, but I'm like, me being a jit, like I wasn't exposed to that. So it was just it was cool. I'm like, yo, I I kind of like this this tempo, this vibe, like, and I'm gonna figure out a way out here. So eighth grade, no, my my brother's eighth grade, my my freshman year uh high school, like we moved to Columbus, stayed with my aunt for like a year. Mom stacked her money up, got a crib, and I was like, yo, I'm gonna go to Georgia State.

Like, I'm gonna stay in Georgia, because I'm like, I'm in Columbus. I'm still not in Atlanta. So I'm like, I want to go to a school in Atlanta. I don't like Morehouse, Spelman, like none of those, well, obviously, I can't go to Spelman, but Morehouse, Clark, like none of those really appealed to me, but I'm like, yo, Georgia State. Especially when I checked out the tour, I'm like, oh, y'all got a hot tub and y'all have a movie theater. I'm like, man, I'm I'm here. Shout out my fellow Panther, by the way. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So you end up joining the service. And you mentioned that that was like a family thing, right? Like a lot of your family members, you know, were also in the service, right? Yeah. So was it almost like expected that you were gonna? Man, my mama cried. Like she didn't want you to. Yeah, my mom, like, okay, like a lot of decisions I made, my mom opposed me on. And then after I made them, she's like, Oh, you I guess you made the right decision. Okay. Yeah, but nah, like it was because she's like, I don't want you to go off to war, I don't want this, I don't want that. I'm like, like with me though, it was and I never had any intention of joining the military. Like I took the ASVAB cause I'm like back then I was super egotistical. So I'm like, yo, I'm better than all y'all.

And I want you to know. So like Columbus is a military town because we had the biggest army base in the world there. So like taking the ASVAB is like you get you get out of class. So like 75% of the school took it. Uh and when I took Just to get out of class. Yeah, like out of class and their parents. Anyone to show how many push-ups you could do. Right. So I took the test and I scored. Like there's people studying for it. I guess like an ASVAB for them. Like people were like trying the hardest. Wait, what is it? I don't even know what the ASVAB is. Like, so the ASVAB like an aptitude test that showed. Oh, okay. I thought it was like a pushup and pull up contest. there's no physical aspect to it. Yeah, no, it's like all the mental. So they see like okay. Misunderstood. Do you have like they're rating like your administrative skills, your mechanical skills, like they're just saying, like, because in every job that exists in the civilian world, more or less exists in the military world. Okay, yeah, yeah. There's like electricians and like yeah, plumbers, yeah, There's everything. Okay, you gotta take this test to figure out like what would you be good at? And like the higher you score, the the more jobs that you qualify for.

Um, and then the more branches because Air Force at that time, you had to score at least a 50 on the ASVAB to even get in. Yeah, it's it's like arguably there's like beef between the uh branches because I I used to work with someone who was like Air Force, and his uh co-worker was like army and they would talk shit all the time. Yeah, I definitely heard that. So like the Air Force is is like known for being like the smart Yeah. yeah, kind of like the nerdier like branch, right? Yeah, and it's like with it with that, it's like it's also the safest. Like you're not gonna you're not gonna hear about too many airmen losing their lives and things. So I was telling my mom, I'm like, yo, like you know, army people, you don't know any Air Force folks, like they live a whole different life. Like, like even the people you meet in the Air Force reserves, you're gonna meet a lot of, like, retired NBA NFL players, like a guy in my shop. I think he used to play for the Ravens. Like, like there's you're you're gonna meet multi-millionaires who are in the reserves, like they're here for the health health insurance. Like, like it's just a whole different type of time.

Like, like she was like, I don't want you to go out to war. And I remember like when I got out of basic, I'm like, yo, I'm like, what's my first deployment? Because everybody's talking about how rich they got on deployment because you you're overseas, the money's tax free in Air Force. Like, man, we get the nice hotels. We got steak and lobster, depending where you're deployed to. We're going to Japan, Hawaii, like super nice spots. So it's like, man, what's my deployment? Like, I'm trying, I'm trying to go. He's like, is there a war coming up anytime soon? Can sign up for? Yeah, and they're like, Oh, uh, yeah, you're not gonna deploy. I'm like, Damn, what? So it's not like guaranteed that you get deployed, right? Yeah, yeah, okay. Like, what do you mean I'm not gonna get like I'm over here sad? My mom's fiending for deployment. I'm like, bro, I'm trying to get me out of there. What do you mean I can't go? And then like I kind of wanted like you get so many thank yous and you get so many free meals. Like, I don't even like wearing my uniform because it's like, thank you, thank you, thank you. Like, I'll go out to a bar, have a have a like uh after work, I'll go out to, like, to a bar, grab some food, someone paid for my meal. I'm like, damn it, like I didn't, you know what I'm saying?

Like, I don't Did I earn this? Yeah, I'm like, man, let me let me go out and just I don't necessarily have to see conflict, but at least let me say I deployed, like I went overseas, don't worry about what I did, I can't tell you. But yeah, I was in a Japanese hotel and you know having lobster. Flew a plane every once in a while. You're welcome. No, that's that's interesting. Um okay, so when does the career in the music business, because I know you were always interested in like you know, you were a trumpet player and like you love the creative side of music and like you were talented at that, hence going, you know, to find performing arts schools, whatever. But you know, from the time that you went into the you know service, and then you end up you know going to college, right? Like, when does it a thought actually kick into your mind of like the business side, right? My sophomore year. Okay, it was my homeboy Chris Ben. Shout out to him. Like, we we shout out Chris. We were uh like he he was in the degree program with me, and he switched over to marketing. I'm like, yo, what the fuck, bro? Like, like because the the program was so intense, like people were dropping out like literally every week, and they had to like re they re they modified my program like they did it was crazy, it was crazy tough.

But you couldn't even fit enough kids in the classes because they were dropping out, yeah. No, it was like like I was like one of three people to graduate with my degree. Wow. Like we had a higher attrition rate than any program in the entire school. Like they revised the program like three times while I was in it, with how intense it was. And I'm the only, like at like we're the only three that finished the original project. What was the program? Music management. Management. Because when I went through, you actually had to play your instrument. You had to be an ensemble. You had to take private lessons. You had to do ear training, which is like, yo, y'all play a Beyonce record. I had to be able to write it out by ear. Like not only Beyonce's melodies, but also all the instruments. Like write all the sheet music. Yeah. And you had to pass that in order to, to get your degree. So it's like, most people don't have the ear to like, Most people can't even tell that shit is at it at at, in the wrong key. Yeah. So I fucked the wrong. I had to tell you what key this is in, what chords you're playing, just a one, five, four progression. Like just, you know what I'm saying? Like, you have to like really have understand theory, music, how things work together to pass the class. So most people like ear training alone will will stump most people from getting the degree.

For sure. But then it's like you had to take accounting and business classes. Yeah. So it's like, it's like most people, you had to have a creative mindset and a business mindset. And you had to be very disciplined with your schedule because it's like you're taking like your average college students only taking four to six classes a year. As a music major, you're taking 10 to 12. Wow. So it's like you have double the the c the double to triple the load of most regular students. And you're like a business major might have like accounting, um, and like three other accounting, marketing, and like two non-major classes in a year. I had accounting, marketing, and BCom in the same semester. So it's just like I'm taking like it, it was intense. It was super intense. But yeah, Chris told me about the the management program. I'm like, y'all have always loved business and I've always loved music. And I'm like, this is a way to merge them together. And like I like so I'm a man of faith, so I'm like, y'all, I talked to God. I'm like, yo, God, if this is meant to be, I need to sign. And at that time, I went for the the live entertainment director position for Georgia State, and I didn't have a recommendation when I did the application, but I turned it in without one. And I missed the first round interview.

So overslept or something? What had you miss it? I had I was doing something else. I think I had like some internship, but I just missed the first round interview. And did you give him a heads up or anything? I didn't say anything. Like when I missed it, I'm like, Mike Norris, Mike Norris. How did you get this job? I guess he's not here. Right. Yeah. So I'm like, yo, I missed something. Yo, that's raps. Like, act of God. I got the second round interview. I'm like, I didn't even, I didn't have a recommendation. And I missed the first round interview. Yeah. Got invited to the second round, so I went in the second round. And mind you, like, the Yeah, they were probably like, he's so badass he didn't even show up for the first interview. We gotta keep this guy. Right. That's some boss shit right there. Yeah. Fuck a first interview. I'm on to the next. Yeah. So I go to the second round interview, and uh, like they love me. Like, cause I'm not, I don't try to be anything. Like, I am who I am. You gonna you gonna fuck with it or you're not, but ultimately, like I can leave with peace of mind knowing that I showed up as myself. And so that's what I did.

I showed up as myself, and they're like, I remember one story I told them, they're like, How would you handle conflict? I'm like, what do you mean? They're like, like, what if you're throwing in an event and somebody like cusses at you and does this, that, and third, but you work with them. I'm like, oh, I work with them, pull them to the side. I'm like, hey bro, look, like I appreciate you giving me your opinion. If you ever talk to me like that again, you gonna have a problem. And I leave it at that. I'm martial arts trained bitch. And so, like when I said that, they're like, like everybody in the room, because I said this live during the interviews like the director of the student centers there, and like all the other people I work with, and they're like, I fuck with him. That takes balls, man. Yeah, so wow, yeah, and like I said, I just show up as me. And it's so when I got that, I'm like, okay. Like, like late, like late later that day, I got a call, like, yo, you got the job. I'm like, so what were some of the events you put on? Uh so we brought her and Jerome to the school to do a concert. I did a comedy show. We brought like Ron, I can't even think of that But uh, we brought we brought a couple of comedians to the uh to the school.

We brought Wild 'n Out out to the school. Oh, dope. So it was it was all like live events for students to be able to take part in, right? Yep. What did you like take away most, you know, would you say from that like side of the music business? Because that's obviously very different than publishing, right? Like, so like, you know, were there some like key takeaways you feel like from even that like experience? experience? Um, like just a whole like what all goes into live events and then all the different ways. Cause like I didn't know anything about booking agents or like earlier today. I had a call with a booking agent, uh, Deggy Entertainment. They specialize in like college shows and um like college shows, military bases, things like that. And so I have a great relationship with him. So I was like, yo, I got a client named Fireman, I'd love to. start getting him some shows. He was like, let's talk about it. So it's like having it gave me, it gave me those relationships like within the the live event world and like from putting on live production. Like I worked the Wayne show, Black, her. So it's like from putting on like live events, I really got to see how the money from that works.

And like just learning how money works and really every aspect of music. Because now I get to see how money works and I see how money works in live events, I know how it works in distribution, I know how it works in publishing. So it just gave me like like a more holistic sense of of how money funnels through the music industry. For sure. How important is money to you? Uh just just you know, calling a spade is spade. Like, is it is is it a pretty motivating factor for you to like get up in the morning and do what you do? Honestly, not anymore. Like every day I get more and more to the point where I don't have to work. Like hopefully within the next 12 months, I'll be at the point where it's like I can live a decent lifestyle not having to work. Uh because I'm all about like residuals. I was even like joining the military. like if you get retirement pay and different things. So it's like like money now is less of a factor, but more so as a factor is like just living up to my full potential. And being, you know, saying answering my calling and living in my purpose. Like, like that's how I well, what I try to focus on now.

Like when I think about things, I'm like, yo, this is does this excite me? Like when you ask my Fireman, like that excites me. His music excites me. Being being a part of his story excites me. So that's that's what I'm more so on now. I'm like, yo, what is meaningful and what what excites me? Yeah. No, he's definitely an excitable uh client for sure. I'm sure he keeps you guessing and uh on on your toes. Um okay, so you end up interning. Uh I think you found the picture of him and Rico. Yeah. Um, so yeah, you end up interning with a past one more time guest, Rico Brooks, the motherfucking legend. Shout out, Rico. So I thought it was funny that you uh you said in the in the caption, like had to intern for this guy for five months to finally get a picture with him. No mention of Sonny Digital at all, who's in the middle of the picture. I thought that was. funny. Shout out Sonny, but He didn't make the caption, yeah. No tag. Yeah, because it's like to me, like that's like cloudy. Like, yeah.

Like if I know I don't really have a relationship with Sonny like that, I don't I don't see a point of it. Like, you know who Sonny is. I know who Sonny is. I you know what I'm saying? But he, yes, I'm in this picture with him, but I wanted to like I want Rico to be the focus. Like he's more the guy in your world. Yeah. He's the guy like you look up to, and you're you're not you know out here producing records. Exactly. Like Sonny cool and like shout out to everything he's done, but I'm like more enamored with like yo, Rico, like like what yes, what Sonny did, but what Rico did. Like I'm the guy behind the guy. Like, like let me, you know what I'm saying? Like, and interning for him was it really gave me the confidence that I have to even move through the industry as an executive because it's like like now I've seen how it's done at the highest level. So you can't tell me otherwise because I've seen it. I've seen this shit work. And it's like, yo, phone a friend. If I'm ever in a situation, I'm like, yo, I don't know what to do. I'll call Rico, put him on speaker. Yo, shit. This is what I'm saying. Let's hear, let's hear from Rico. And Rico be like, yo, you should do this, this, this, this, and that situation.

And everybody's like, well, shit. That's how we're doing it. Yeah. The God has spoken. He spoke. Yeah, Nah, like, because Rico, he's just different. Like, I like to observe people and how they think. Like, like, because I feel like that's the biggest thing that you can really take away from being under somebody is like, like they're their processes for coming to decisions. And if I can mimic that, that process of how he makes the decision, then maybe I can mimic a little bit of that of that success. But I can mimic your patterns and and the environment and just see like because there's people who let things happen, and then there's people who make things happen. And like Rico's one of those guys that like he he can like he had he builds teams and systems around different different artists. Like he might not, he might have these three people focus on just this set of clients while other people focus on this, or he's you know what I'm saying. So I just got to like watch like how he does things, how he the people that he chooses to have have around him, like how he builds relationships, how he holds those relationships, how he values his relationships. And the biggest thing is like how he like study time, like he spends one to two hours every day just reading.

And so I'm like that's what that's what fascinated me most by him. I even see him posting all the time, like articles. Excerpts from articles, exactly. This dude is like a student. Yeah when I interviewed. We talked about that. Yeah, I had to the first task, like for the first two weeks, nothing music. He had he went to a Harvard, uh Harvard case, uh Harvard thing for like two weeks. And every case study he had to do, he sent to me. And I had to read through all of them and write a report on every single one of them just to like get my perspective on things. And I'm like, oh wow, like like just reading this and having to get my perspective is challenging because it's like yo, this is I'm consuming new information, and it's at a high level because it's like they're talking about like Beyonce cases and different, and they have more it's hard because they have way more information than the general public has Oh, yeah, they have like all the data points on what actually fucking transpired behind the scenes, you know what I mean. So I'm over here like having to think, and I'm like, yo, I gotta have an original thought because that's hard. Like, yeah, you just consumed all this knowledge. Now my opinion has to be my opinion, not necessarily influenced by this article or even influenced.

Like, I can't tell you what you want to hear. I have to tell you what I like, I artistically think, because you're looking at me as a young, a young man in the game. So you want to hear that youth perspective. Like, how do I feel as a youth being in this culture and after consuming this knowledge, like what's my perspective? Because your perspective is coming from 30 years in the game. So uh yeah, he just really like I like seeing how he moves and how he grows, like all of that made a uh a tremendous impact on how I maneuver as an executive. No, for sure. Shout out Rico. He's easily one of my favorites, uh, such a good dude as well. Yeah. Just like a genuine soul. I mean, love running into that guy. He came out to our artist's show. Yep. Like supported. So like he definitely gives back to the people that like have, you know, given to him and that sort of thing. And people he believes in. I did want to make sure I get your perspective on kind of like the future of the industry, right? Because you posted something about this company uh V-E-Z-T? Is that how you pronounce it?

Vets. That's okay. V E T Z or something or Z T, I don't know. Anyways, the concept is that like, you know, normal people like us can purchase rights to artists' catalog, if I understood the like concept correctly, right? Yep. That's a that's some forward-thinking progressive shit, I feel like. If you would have told a label in the fucking 80s that, like, oh yeah, by the way, like just normal people are gonna be able to just, you know, buy percentages of these songs. They'd look at you like you're fucking crazy, like you have three heads, right? But it is something that the industry's changing. Like, what are some other like concepts or other companies you've seen out there that are like taking steps to really shift the narrative? Because I feel like that's something that you're about on the publishing side is like automating publishing, even your work with Origin, right? Like that's some futuristic shit, right? You you would have told a publisher that that's how it was gonna work, they'd laugh at you as well. Yeah.

So what are some of those other like either companies or concepts, right? That are like pushing the the uh like envelope, you know what I mean, as far as like the future of music. And you mentioned blockchain as well. I don't know if there's any web three related kind of stuff in there. It's a space I'm pretty interested in. Yeah, there's a lot of companies out there. Um I can't think of their names, but I had to like do research on all of them because some of them are competitors and some of them were just trying to see how they operate. But yeah, I definitely see music going to the web three space, uh, blockchain specifically, because it's like you're cutting out the middleman. Yeah. And you're gonna have a whole lot more profit if it's just going from consumer to you and you can sell a lot more things. So I think it it's gonna be I think artists are going to be a lot more creative with their rollouts because it's like yo you can have somebody scan uh scan a QR code and now they have a whole VR experience from their phone where they're immersed in stuff. So I think like like it's definitely gonna be a blend of technology and uh music.

And I think I see banks coming in like like banks have been in the industry but I I see like banks playing like a bigger stronger part in it uh just with just with BMI hiring Goldman Sachs to try to help them sell. And I I see like labels but like just larger entities losing power because I think labels are in trouble right they've been in trouble. Like if you pay attention to Sony like Sony's fired like 10 executives like within like the last this year and they haven't hired anybody to replace them and Warner did the same thing like like all these labels are are cutting overhead finding ways to save money uh so they're already in trouble and they're putting all these like oh there's more money music I'm like man the money ain't been going to the label yeah you know what I'm saying so where is the money going? There's a lot so it's going to like late cause labels and publishers are different. So like when it comes to the publishing bread like a lot of the publishing bread is still kept within the publishing world but the the label side the master side like man that's going to all these these different like there's 40 50 thousand songs released every day. So I'll tell you like some people don't.

There's meditation. People who make meditation music, right? I met a guy, his name was like Paul or something. I was at uh I was in Tennessee. And he said him and Timbaland were saying signed to the same label. He makes meditation music. Like you will never hear him on radio. But if you go to like a yoga, that's his shit playing. Man made the same amount as Timberland. It's insane. Yeah. Bro, you're making the wrong type of music. I have a buddy, yeah, who uh him he he does the music and his girl does like uh voiceovers for like like uh she narrates meditation exercises, yeah. They are killing it. Absolutely. Bro, let's talk about this. Like this is a new project for us. Yeah, so I think that's like the way that music is headed. Like, I think it's so it's going in different places now, it's becoming parts of experiences, maybe outside of just I'm in my car listening to the radio. Yeah, it's becoming decentralized. Like, like now, music has to be like an experience. Like it even like like if you look at a uh like you can look at the streaming numbers, like before somebody goes on tour versus after, like when somebody goes on tour, like there's streaming numbers go through the roof because it's like now there's an experience attached to that music.

So I just think music is gonna grow to the point where like there's experiences attached to it. I think labels are gonna like kind of they're not they're never gonna disappear because they can't, like, like Sony has Sony, like as long as PlayStation's in business, Sony's gonna be in business. Uh so it's like as long as movies are in business, Warner and Universal are gonna be in business. Like they have so many different ventures, yeah. It's like you're not gonna fall. Like, even if music goes to zero, like they still have other things that have a greater effect on the bottom line. So, but I think labels are gonna kind of transition the roles that they play from more so being like, we're we're a one-stop and we do this to like you'll partner with us, and what, depending on what you partner with, uh, like we'll do your marketing for you, or we'll do this for you, we'll let you distribute this. But even like distribution isn't real distribution, it's population. Like, you're not, you're not like only Apple or Spotify or like they're distributing the music. You're just populating those platforms with the music. So like even like the distribution models are gonna change.

Because when you when you release an NFT through your own platform, now you're a distributor, like you're distributing it. So it is uh I just think it's gonna music, and I see it happening now. I just think like a lot of the artists and creators are gonna be more tech and finance minded, and then that's gonna lead to like more collaborations between not just lyrical labels, but like companies in general. Like you might see Nike and uh you might see Nike and Atlantic work together with this independent artist on something because it's it's some type of venture there. So I kind of think that's where it's headed more so towards partnerships, uh tech-based things and experiences. Yeah. And artists retaining more creative freedom and more of their, you know, and more of like owning more of your masters and keeping retaining more of the, you know, what they created, which seems like how it should be. Exactly. I'm excited for that part of it for sure. So I did want to get this from you. Explain music publishing to a fifth grader for us. And Henry may or may not be the fifth grader example here in this case.

Sure. So when it comes to publishing, right? Publishing is just a composition. That's it. Like people like, oh, there's a sound record. Fuck the sound record. That's not publishing. There's a composition. That's what your publishing is. So it's like if you make some shit right now, like you just like you just start tapping on that and you make a beat. I'm like, that's shit, kind of hard. Like right now, that's all it is. But like you make some shit, I'm like, yo, that's shit kind of hard. And then you upload it on copyright.gov. Okay, now it has a tangible form. Like now it's legal. Like now the US is saying, yo, this exists. This is something right here. You have something. So once you have the copyright, okay, cool. Now that that's just a copy, like there's still no money being generated. All right. So now you have to register that work. You have to release it, and then once you release it, you have to register the work. And you can register it before you release it, but you have to register the performance royalties and you have to uh and performance that's easy. Like that's just ASCAP, BMI.

There's CSAC, but they're so hard to get. So I don't know anyone that uses CSAC. Yeah. So you have ASCAP and BMI. It's easy. You sign up on there, register. And like, like I said, this is where they start to intentionally make it complicated because BMI is a 200-point scale, ASCAP is a 100-point scale. Why is BMI do that? Off top. That's just to intentionally like fuck you up with the registration. So it's like, yo, you can register it, either one. Um, but once you register, now you have your publishing. And you have to register, like, so I'll go with ASCAP. I hate it. So with ASCAP, like, if you don't have a publisher, let's say like you have 50% of a record. If you have a publisher, you're only claiming 25% as a writer, and then the other 25% goes to that publisher. But if you don't have a publisher, you just put the full 50 under your name and they don't cut you the check. Um now that's your performance. Now your mechanical, that's where it gets complicated because there's a whole lot of like different people, a lot of uh collection societies for your mechanical royalties. So you need to have an admin or something.

Yeah, an admin. And the difference between an admin and a co-publisher is a co-publisher is co- like the that word co has a whole lot of meaning because that's a co-owner. Like they're paying you, and like they're your business partners, and everything you do, they co-own with you. So ain't no beat uh Henry B. Is it Henry B and whoever your your your publisher is? Like they share ownership with that. Um now admin, there's no ownership, but they also might not give you a check. And they're not responsible to give you a check, they're not responsible to put you in or they're not your business partner. It's like, yo, I'm just getting this money for you because if I don't get this money for you, it goes in a black box. So and they get a percentage. So that's theoretically why they're motivated to collect it. Yeah, so it's like yo, I'm getting between five to twenty percent of everything that you do. And in exchange for my hard work of registering across all these platforms and solving these disputes and you know, doing what I gotta do to get your money, you know, dog, I need five, twenty percent. And that's fair for the work they're putting in.

Uh co-publisher is like, yo, I I gave you all this money, I own this shit with you. Like, this is just as much mine as it is yours, and I own half of everything that you do, even though I'm not in there with you. You took my money, dog. So like I need I need this, and even when I get a return, I still own half of everything you do until this contract is expired. So that's kind of like the difference between co-pub and admin. Like, admin, they have no obligation to do anything for you outside of cut you a check. But co-pub is like, yo, you're my business partner. If you're not helping me exploit my rights, putting me in rooms, doing like helping me, you're you're failing, you're lacking as a partner. Um, so that's a kind of like a simple, simple. God, it's confusing. And what is what is your company do? Which one of those is your company? Yeah, so North and Nashville, we focus on admin. So I I can give advances now. I have a lot of partners, but I prefer just to administer your works, collect the money for you, make sure you get a check. And then if you know what I'm saying? Like you, you start heating up, I'm gonna present it to you, like, yo, Sony's interested, Concord's interested, Ultra's interested. They they they offering XYZ.

What do you want? You want to take it? And then if you do, it's like, yo, we're in a deal and I got 20% and they give you $100,000. Well, it's you got 80 coming your way. I got 20 coming my way, but our our agreement is good. Like, like you, you were no longer under NIA, you're under whatever publisher you choose to go with. Okay. Are there any like recommendations you'd make for anyone out there that wants to learn more about publishing? Have you found any like good YouTubers or websites that you would like specifically say, like, yo, go check this out? Because there's not a lot. There's not, I feel like a lot of just or let's just see what he thinks and let's go check them out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So definitely uh check out your nearest college and find who's teaching music publishing and just sit in on his class. Like, they're not the truth. Ooh, that's a good one. Yeah, because like I'll tell you, like, they're they're selling you snake oil online. Like, yes, you they publishers do not want you to figure this shit out. So a lot of like they'll give you because like that that's why I had to emphasize like sound recording, because a lot of people will teach publishing. So when it comes to publishing, you have the sound recording, you have the composition, right?

What the fuck is the sound recording? That's nothing to do with publishing. We're talking about the publishing, the composition, the you know what I'm saying? So it's like off top, like that's how a lot of videos start and a lot of diagrams start. So whenever I see like there's a sound recording and I'm like, yo, the sound recording is irrelevant to public. Like, like, yes, it's a part of it, but it's not published, it's a part of me, but it's not publishing. So most things you see online, like even everything you need to know about the music industry, like that's a glossary. It's telling you what these terminologies mean. But even then, when they teach it to you, it's like, well, you got the composition and you had a sound record. I'm like, well, when is the sound recording come back up? Like, why'd you bring the sound recording up to me if it's not gonna come back? Because now I'm I'm waiting for this part to come in, and as you're learning, it never comes back in. You're like, well, why the fuck did you mention that? Yeah, in the first place? Yeah, but that's that's how people explain publishing to you. And so whenever somebody does that, I'm like, you don't know shit. Cause like I just off you mentioning a sound record, like you don't know shit. Like, because that's not gonna help you. That's gonna lead to more confusion. You're like, so when does the sound recording come? It doesn't, bro. Like it's a it's not really it's part of the master.

Like the sound, the publishing, like you can never have a uh have like like publishing, like you can never actually release your record and still have publishing. Like like a Samuel Hazel or uh uh a Robert Smith or a what's that big one? Joe Hayashi, like man, they don't have to like release they're they're composers, they can literally just write the music, sell it to a band, or there's there's there's gospel people who are out here writing church hymns, making millions off of church hymns. They never recorded it. This here's his sheet music. Like, so you don't really know master points, yeah. Like just a composition, yeah. So that's that's what publishing is is a composition, like the composition exists without recording. Yeah, it's the arrangement of the notes and the parts in this order, yeah. Yeah, that's publishing. I'm equally confused now. No, but Mike, amazing story, amazing perspective. We have entered a final segment of the podcast. Henry, H3, where are we at? So Mike was here for the last episode.

He might have prepared for this a little bit, but I think uh you at least know at this point that this is the rapid fire rampage. And if you don't remember, it is a three-part rampage, starting with the short answer questions into the this or that, and ending with the word associations. So I'll go over those again as we go. Are you buckled up? I'm buckled up. Let's get it. Starting with the short answer, Martin Scorscade Scorsese, excuse me, is directing a biopic. Who plays the lead role of Mike Norris? Me. Full actor bag. Love that. As a fellow Georgia State Panther, what year will the Panthers win the college football national championship? 2024.

Ooh. Wow. Generous. If you were a side dish, what would you be and why? I would be some truffle French fries. Gosh. Reason, reasoning behind that? Because it is something that everybody likes, but with a with a touch of class. Yeah. Damn. It is at the expensive restaurants for sure. Truffle anything. What is a useless talent that you have? Being able to fight. Not actually getting in many fights these days. Yeah. Okay. He does seem like a non-confrontational kind of guy. Yeah, for sure. You're opening a bar in Buckhead. What's it called? Mike's. You've started a metal band. Mm-hmm. What is it called? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Raging Monkeys.

I would check them out. Getting a little more philosophical here. Is a thumb a finger? I say yes. Thumbs a finger. The third biggest ever, Mega Millions was just recently hit. If it was you, what would you do with the money? If it was me. I am starting the biggest label in the world, and every act's going to blow. You can buy more shirts like that. If you could be one age forever, what age would you be and why? I'd say 30. And I say 30 because at 30, I'm gonna be a bad man. And I say I'll I'll I'll say the age forever because I always want to be a bad man. I'm gonna enjoy being 30, I guess, for a few more months. Then you just inspired me.

I appreciate that. Mike, what stresses you out? Clients. Amen, brother. You can go back in time and witness any historical event. Which event do you choose? Hmm. Emancipation of proclamation. You must donate a body part to science. Which part do you choose? Ears. And ending with what is your favorite curse word? Damn. Part one of the rampage. Part one. This is good. He's he he's losing his ears in music. I don't know. I don't know how well that's gonna go over. He doesn't have to listen to the clients anymore. He just starts signing. terrible clients. That too. They're like, yo, I swear this shit's hard. He's like, he looks good. Yeah, exactly. He's got a good image. He works hard. The sheet music was hard. Yeah, exactly. Playing it in my head. I guess that would be the way around it. He'd have to check out like the arrangement and the dog.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways, great part one. Great part one. Moving on to the this or that. Rapping or singing? Singing. Become a rapper or leave the music industry. Become a rapper. Oh god. What would your rap name be? And you can't take killer. Mike. He's already exists. I'd be. I think Mike Norris is kind of hard. Damn. Really? It is. Alright, cool, cool. I'm gonna go with that then. Shit. Album coming soon, right? I'm gonna work. You heard it here first. He's got some fire producers in his camp. So publishers already set up. He's good to go. Dude's gonna get his money for sure. Plan it out or go with the flow. Plan it out. Nerf gun or water gun? Nerf gun.

Have 12 kids or a permanent vasectomy. 12 kids. Live in a teepee, live in an igloo. Live in a teepee. Hot or lemon pepper? Hot. Six fingers or sixteen toes. Sixteen toes. More money or more time? More time. Always whisper or always shout. Always shout. I'll always whisper. Get farted on by Donald Trump or lose two weeks of your life. I feel like a lot of people been farted on by Donald Trump. They didn't know. It's very possible. But you would know. You would know. It would be on camera. It'd be on camera. It would live on the internet. Like it's gonna be like a loud fart. Like everybody's no, like, damn. Like the back of his jacket's gonna go through a little bit. Yeah, man. I wouldn't even know this in two weeks. Two weeks. People, yeah. People are like cutting days off their lives for this stuff. This is crazy.

Take it. This life shit's hard. Yeah. So here's one where the uh taekwondo could come in handy. Battle 100 duck-sized elephants or one elephant-sized duck. A hundred duck-sized elephants. Be way more fun to watch, too. Cute little elephants. Just punting them. Oh man. Face tat of a cheeseburger. Or pierce your butt cheeks. What? We ask the real questions on the One More Time podcast. This is a terrible thing to choose from. Yeah, I had to go with a piercing. You have to, right? You're piercing your butt cheeks. Yeah, because like you would never know, like, you would never know. Yeah. But sitting on it, it would hurt, wouldn't it? You just sit on your pierced butt cheeks. Might hurt. But yeah, the case. You don't have to explain the cheeseburger. Yeah. potential clients would be like, what the fuck is wrong with you do? I mean, what would be your explanation?

I lost it there. Like, that's the only Yeah. They'd be like, you a man of your word, I respect it. But yeah, then you look like a goofball. Yeah. I think you made the right choice. I don't know. Mike Norris, the rapper could definitely have a cheeseburger on his face. That might be the look. Yeah. Are we going to eat tuna with every meal or eliminate all tuna from Earth? Eliminate all tuna from Earth. It's all gone. Letting tuna people down. I'm sorry, everybody else. Legalize all drugs or legalize dueling between consenting adults. Hmm. Legalize dueling for sure. That's the fighter in him. Last one of the this or that. This is to gauge your risk tolerance. You have an 80% chance of a Fireman album going diamond. Or a 20% chance of winning the lottery. I'll go with a Fireman album. Wow. Part two of the rampage. Part two. That's some allegiance to his client. That is, for sure.

He knows he's on record, so we'll ask him again after. Yeah, true. Last part of the rampage. I'm hoping he stays solid. It's actually been an amazing rampage so far. Quick, good answers. Yeah. Let's see if you can bring it home with the word association. I'll drop you one word, drop me the first thing right back off the top of your head. There we go. Rampage! Starting as always with hip hop. Jay-Z. Mushroom. Trip. Romance. Heartbreak. Mm. Fact. 100. Sour. Patch kids. Mm. Drake. Number one. Toilet. Paper. TikTok. Money. Mm. Snack. Bitches.

God. A whole snack. Purple. Barney. Guitar. Sinner. Zaza. Bad gas. Doctor. Strange. OnlyFans. Subscription. Prison. Orange clothes. Ribeye. Ribeye. Steak. Ghostwriter. Quinn Miller. One of the best. Lil Dickie. Ooh. Have we ever got? No. Shout out to uh to Dave. Hell yeah. Shout out to Dave. Ninja. My uncle. Album. Drop.

Podcast. One more time. One more time. Thank you, sir. Salad. Dressing. Ad lib. Yeah. Ethereum. To the moon. Established. Business. Henry your alley-oops have been terrible. I was going for 1985, but we'll take it. Great rampage stuff. Great rampage. Great interview, man. I mean, your perspectives are incredible. I love like how committed you are to yourself, man, as an entrepreneur. Like, that shit is literally way more than half the battle. You know, as long as you put in the work and you have that attitude, I feel like, you know, nothing's stopping you, man. So really love everything you gotten to so far. Can't wait to see where you take this shit, man. Appreciate you coming on. And uh thanks again for the fireman assist. Yes, sir, Appreciate you having me. H3. Until next week, what are we doing? Getting out of here. Getting the fuck out of here. Peace. Middle finger to the lawn