Ex-Major Label Exec: Chasing a Record Deal is a HUGE Mistake ft. Chris Anokute

You're not looking for a deal. You're You're looking for a partner. Like a deal is when you exit. You want to sell your catalog? Let's Let's go make a deal. You've literally signed some of the biggest artists in the world. I'm I'm the most successful A &R of the 21st century in terms of Hot 100 number one. You need need 25 million streams to make a hundred grand back. 95% of these deals end up with the artists being dropped a year later. You expect a manager to work for free for 20%? Like imagine that. At At the end of the day, that should be illegal. The The lawyers have ruined the industry and I can't wait for them to be AI'd out of business.

My shirt says, own your master. You have the right to own it and you also have the right to pay for it.

Yeah, that one hurt bro. idea of having seven number ones on one album, Katy Perry, Michael Jackson, number one record. You know how much money we spent at Universal? How much? I I would love to hear that number.

You've built global superstars. You've been inside the major label system. But you posted an Instagram carousel post where it was like everything artists should know. And And one of the slides was, you don't want a deal.

So what would cause you to say that? Chris, what has happened? Listen, you want to make a deal with a different type of mindset, right? For For some reason, there's this vision with artists and I want a record deal and I need a deal. And And you want a partner or an investor. You're You're a founder and you guys got to wake up and stop being victims and stop being codependent. You're You're a founder. You're You're building your own startup. You You have to understand your business inside and out. You You have to know where the money is. You need to know what type of investment is needed to build your product. And with most founders, they're looking for an investor or business partner. They're They're not looking for a deal like like a deal is when you exit. Right. You want to sell your catalog? Let's

Let's go make a deal. You You want to sell your publishing? Let's go make a deal. But But when you're looking to find the right support to build a career, you're looking for a partner. So So let's get that deal conversation off the table right now because because you're not looking for a deal. You're You're looking for a partner. You're looking for a business partner. And And you have to come to the table with enough business acumen to understand what type of relationship you want with that partner and what type of investment you need to help scale your business. I

I think that's it right there. Like Like these people, we're talking about independent artists who just love making music and and there's no like introductory music business course. But

But that's what I'm saying. It's It's like, it sounds like, are we dealing with a whole new caliber or type of artists then in today's day and age? Right. Because they didn't have to do that. You're asking a lot of an artist, bro, like like to act like a startup founder. I I don't know. Like Like I hear that and I'm like, damn, I don't know that a lot of like musicians and traditional artists have that in them. I don't know if they're built like that. Then

Then that's your problem. I mean, the way I look at it is this, right? You're You're building a business that has value that you own, that you could potentially sell. And it's going to take three to five years to build any business. Right. So So at the end of the day, either you're a hobbyist or you're doing this for real. Right. Like I love to sew. I I love to sew my own clothes or I want to build a fashion brand. So So you have to understand the difference between being a hobbyist and doing something for fun and doing something to make a living. And And at the end of the day, this is the greatest time for artists to be entrepreneurs. This This is the greatest time in the history of the recorded business where everybody could play. And you have the right to play the game the way you want to play it. There's There's enough to go around, but it's going to take time and it's going to take the right understanding of the business you're in. Like, I mean, T.I. just

just dropped something. He He was on an interview and he just talked about how one of the worst decisions he made was leaving Atlantic Records. Because he didn't really understand what a major record company did for him. And And he thought he wanted to just see what the other side looked like. Right. To To see if he could do it independently. And he said it's been the toughest thing he's done in his career is try to build his own company independently and try to market and promote his music independently. And And now he's learning what it is to really be a founder. Right. So So I think for so long, for over the last five decades, artists were basically developed and put on by record companies. And And all they had to do was shut up, sing and dance. And And everything happened around them. Right. And And those same people were also taking 80 to 90 percent of their profits, owning their masters. And then they cry bankruptcy after selling Diamond Album. But But whose fault is that?

Now, I'm not saying artists shouldn't like. Unfortunately, a lot of artists were exploited by record companies and exploited by managers and exploited by lawyers. And a lot of them just wanted to be famous and they made money, but they didn't make as much money as the people who supported them made. So So now it's up to you as an artist to understand the business you're entering. It's It's up to you to understand where the money flows, how people get paid, what your rights are, how much you're going to make at the end of the day and how much it really costs to build a career. Because Because if you knew how much it would cost to build a career, I promise you, you won't end up investing your own money because you got the money. And And if you did have the money, you're actually going to go broke before you actually see a profit. So So most investors, most partners, most labels, most managers will never make their money back on an investment. I I mean, just for a small scale investment in a recording artist, which is 100 grand. And if you're just basing it on streams and sales, you need 25 million streams to make 100 grand back. So

So if I'm an investor and I invested 100 grand into you, Ben, Henry, and you're starting at zero. And over the course of the last year, you only accumulated 300,000 streams.

It's a bad investment. The

The chances of you getting to 25 million streams on, let's call it seven masters, my money's better invested in Bitcoin. I assure you that in the next 12 months, my 100 grand in Bitcoin will at least go to 175. And I don't have to put that with you 50 -50. But But if I invest 100 grand into you, you have to generate 40 million, 25 million streams for me to break even one. And to break even one. And then I need another 25 million streams to make 100 grand profit. And then I have to give you $50,000 if it's a 50 -50 deal, a partnership. But But that doesn't account for the payroll insurance. That That doesn't account for the staff salaries. That That doesn't account for all the lights to run a business. So where's the money in the music industry? So

So what are we doing then? I'm like, I don't understand. Should Should we all just hang it up? Should we hang it up? No, no, no. It's It's an offering. It's

It's an offering. That's That's what we're doing. And And that's the question you should ask yourself in the mirror. What What am I doing this for?

You have to be obsessed. Am I doing this to get rich?

Am I doing this to make a living? What's What's making a living? Because at the end of the day, don't let Instagram fool you. People People aren't making that kind of money. A A lot of those cars are rentals. A A lot of that jewelry is rentals. A A lot of that wealth you see online is not theirs. So So you think you're going to become a millionaire or a billionaire making music, but you don't understand that it may cost you a few million dollars just to get to a profit center. And And if you don't got that money, who's going to invest? That's hence hence why you need a business partner or you need an investor. And And it's also going to take you three to seven years to actually turn your business into a profit center. Do Do you have the endurance spiritually and emotionally to endure that rigmarole, that ride, that suffering, right? Perhaps. Perhaps. But do you also have the cash to sustain? And And most people don't because they're uneducated about how the music industry works. They're

They're uneducated about how much money is spent behind the scenes to get a million streams that only then generates $4,000 in billing, right? And And I have a heart for the independent music industry. And And I also have a heart for the investor and the business partner because because I'm on every side. I And we weren't making any money. So So I lost the money. It It took me two years to turn her touring business into a business where she's actually making a $300 profit a show. And

And guess what? It

It took me eight years to recoup $150,000. And And this artist, for an independent artist, she's done quite well. She's done over 40 million streams. That's That's not chicken shit. That's That's real business. But But I just recouped. So So now after recouping my $150,000 that didn't come from a bank, that didn't come from a corporation, that came from Chris Anokute, Bank of America account, after eight years, I finally recouped it. Now Now I pay her 50% profit split. So if if I put that $150,000 into Bitcoin or Palantir or Intel eight years ago, I would have made $5 million.

You know what I'm saying? So

So we don't do this either to make money. We We do this because this is our livelihood. This This is our passion. And And it's like a sport. I don't think anybody went to Rucker Park thinking they were going to become the next Jordan. They just want to ball. They just want to dunk on people. They They just want to impress their friends on the sideline. They They just want to be a great athlete. And And then some people get into the business of the NBA and they get paid millions of dollars to play ball. But But I promise you, if you ask any ball player, they would play for free. And And it's just like the music industry. I I do it for free. If If everything was taken care of, this is what I love. This is my passion. And I think every artist has that same emotion about it. So So it's about your why. Why Why am I doing this anyway? Perhaps Perhaps it's an offering to God. Perhaps Perhaps this is therapeutic. Perhaps Perhaps I'm writing a song that could change somebody's life. Perhaps

Perhaps I just want to go on the road and tour and be in front of people and watch magic permeate before my eyes. Imagine Imagine writing a song in your bedroom and then singing that song for 300 people or 3000 people and having them sing every song. I mean, mean, that's what I think your mission should be. And And then maybe you will also make money. But But nobody is promised a living pursuing the music industry. Because Because at the end of the day, it's an offering to God. And And that's the way I still look at it. So So I know that you win some, you lose some. And And every single day I wake up hoping that I run into a star. That somebody sends me a hit record. And And I'm able to develop something. I'm I'm able to create something. I'm I'm able to be an orator for somebody. I'm I'm able to be a vessel. And And the rest is not up to me.

The rest is up to the audience. And And also God's will for my life. And And that release of anxiety is the reason why I'm still in the music business at 43 years old. I've been doing this since I was 17 years old. I I never had any desire to make money. I I said if I could make a school teacher's salary, which is 35 grand a year, I'd be in the music industry for the rest of my life. And And that's still the case for me. Now, Now, granted, over the last 20 years, I've had success. I've made money. But I never pursued it for that reason. And And that's why my heart's still in it. So So I just think you've got to be in it for the right reasons and let go and let God. It's It's more spiritual than you know. I I don't want to get into it because a lot of people are woo -woo about God and faith. But I I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I believe in creation. And And at the end of the day, I believe in our eternity and our life to be of service to one another. Everything else will be added on to you. Like,

Like, seek the kingdom of God and everything else will be added on to you. So So I'm here to serve. I'm here to be a truth teller. I'm here to live in my purpose. And by the grace of God, everything else was added on to me. So, So, like, the good news is true. And that's how I live my life. And I don't want to, you know, project on anybody else. But I just think everybody needs to just relax.

So, when you said, you know, back in the day, artists just had to, like, show up, sing, dance, and do the thing, right? Yes. Do you think that music is suffering now at all because they have to do so much more than that? that? Because that's kind of where my head goes. Because Because it's like, if they just had to show up, sing, and dance, then that made probably the singing and the dancing a hell of a lot better than maybe if they had to show up, sing, dance, market content, run ads, do admin, do finance, budgeting, touring, whatever. I I don't know. Like, is the music suffering because of it? The

The music isn't suffering because you're still making the pizza. The The business is suffering, right? See?

See? Music,

Music, calling, purpose, business, commerce. Listen, Listen, it may be controversial, but we brought the two together, but music was an offering. So, So, let's focus on just being a servant to your calling and making great music. Yeah. If If you don't understand the business, insert business partner. Maybe you shouldn't be independent. Maybe Maybe you should bring in somebody and give them a real skin in the game so they can do all those other things that you don't want to do. There's enough to go around. Because Because if you've got to invest your hundred grand into developing your repertoire to get 10 million streams to only make 40 grand back and be 60K in debt, why don't you spend his or her money and give them a piece of the pie? It It doesn't have to be for perpetuity. It It doesn't have to be for five albums. It It could be for one project where you just partner with somebody to get your career off the ground. And

And then, like T.I., if you want to decide to be completely independent and fund things yourself, that's up to you. But But I just think the idea of it's mine, mine, mine. And, yeah, it's your music, but it's not your business. It's It's our business. And And we should all share in the business, the manager, the label, and anybody who's investing their resources, their time, or their cash. And And that's the philosophy that we have to bring back into the music industry. Because Because there's a lot of chatter about F the labels, but how about the independent labels? The The manager, but you expect a manager to work for free for 20%? Like, imagine that. I mean, at the end of the day, that should be illegal. Like, Like, where else do you get the service of somebody working for free and you not paying them? The The lawyers don't work for free. They They charge $600 an hour. The accountant doesn't work for free. He or she charges X amount of dollars an hour. But you expect your manager to work for free? Why Why don't you pay me $300 an hour? And

And then you can get fired. You can just get fired at any time. No job security.

I've seen so many managers. So I even understand why managers can't really give their time and resources to artist development. Because they're doing it for free. So if the manager isn't getting paid, if the label investor, business partner, is in six -figure debt, who do you think is going to do the work? The The artist. So So that's what I'm saying. Like, the artist just needs to, like, rise to the occasion. Do the work. Do all the work. You're You're a founder. You think founders are just, like, sitting around, like, playing the guitar and hoping that their product sells off the shore? I mean, mean, they're doing intensive work. They're They're working eight -hour days. They're looking at charts. They're looking at sales. They're looking at graphics. They're designing the website. And And if they don't have the ability to, they bring in partners and they give percentages of their company. And And this is not, like, a license. This

This is, like, for perpetuity. So So if I'm your partner in your startup and I have 30% of it, my relationship to the business is operations and graphics and design. That's That's my job. And And I'm not getting paid. I'm getting equity. But eventually, eventually, if the company sells, I'm getting paid. So So it's the same thing with the record business. You've got to look at your career as a startup. And And you've got to bring in your C -suite. You've got to bring in your business partners. And then you've got to bring in your investor. The The investor could be in and out. But your business partners are in for the long ride. And I think managers should, like, take that manager word out of your equation. Your Your manager is your business partner. That's That's your first business partner. And And what piece of your business do you want to give your manager? Because Because to me, that piece shouldn't go away. If If you're aligned with your manager and they have a vision and blueprint for the business plan on how to build it, then that manager should participate in that business for as long as that business is in the market. And And it could be one album. But if I'm managing you for that album, it's not an album cycle.

long as that album is generating revenue, I should own 20%. That's That's it. I don't have to have an actual ownership stake. But I should have a revenue participation stake in that product for perpetuity because I manage that product. So

So if people disagree with you, what are some of the common objections that people have to that approach?

I had to take a break from today's episode, guys, because I'm terrified that too many of you are not collecting all the royalties that you're owed. It's It's hard enough to make a dollar and you guys are leaving money on the table. Unlike your master royalties that are generated when you upload through your distributor, publishing royalties do not get collected by default. Could you hypothetically register your song with hundreds of collection societies around the world? Yes, Yes, but ain't nobody got time for that. That's why a pub admin like KOSIGN, the sponsor of today's episode, is extremely beneficial to make sure that you get every single dollar that you're owed on the publishing side of the house. KOSIGN is backed by the fourth largest music publisher in the world. So they have an absolute beast of a machine supporting you to make sure that you get every dollar that you're owed. They're selective with who they work with. That way they can provide the best customer experience possible for their clients. But it's free to apply. So there's absolutely nothing to lose. The link's in the description. Now Now let's get back to the episode. Well, if I want to fire my manager, then what? Well, Well, you can't fire your business partner. You can buy them out. Okay.

Okay. Right? Right? Well, Well, my manager doesn't write the songs. My manager isn't going on the road. You guys aren't doing X, Y, Z. I'm I'm not asking for 50%. I'm I'm asking for 10 to 20. Well, Well, my manager hasn't put any money into the pie. Okay. Okay. What if your manager paid according to their percentage? So So for every dollar you have to spend on marketing, I'll pay for $150 worth of it since I'm getting 15% of the business. Right? Just have a conversation. Like, Like, negotiate. Be a smart business person. Try to find the best scenario for you to have success. Because it's very hard to make money in the music business. It very hard to make money in the music business. It is very It is very hard to make money in the music business. It is very hard to make money in the music business.

Try. So So when people say there's so much money in music, though, still, and they quote all these stats about how much there's this and that and revenues, like, where's the disconnect here? Because I'm hearing you say it. Like, what's actually true?

There's a lot of money in the music business for catalog. Anything Anything that was released 18 to 24 months or later. I I mean, at the end of the day, most of the major record companies, Universal, Warner, Sony, most of their money is coming from dead people. Oh,

Oh, no.

those deals were very exploitive. They They owned the rights for perpetuity. They They were paying the artists 14% royalty. All All costs were recouped against the artists. They They were in a profit center 40 years ago. And they're still in a profit center. And And they're basically leveraging that catalog and getting paid, you know, market share royalties from YouTube, from Apple, from Spotify. They're getting paid all over the place. They're getting paid from all these AI companies licensing the catalog. You You know what I mean? So So that's where the money is. And then it's in superstars on tour. No No developing artists is making any money on tour. And And those superstars, through the servicing of major business partners, you want to call them record companies, I'll call them business partners. Or investors have filled the gravitas of these superstars to sell 20,000 tickets because they took their songs to radio and spent a quarter million dollars multiple times. Because they paid for tour support over the course of three years to get them from 300 seats to 3,000 seats to 5 to 10, right? And And now these artists are making millions of dollars on the road and Live Nation owns every venue and the music industry is healthy. But

But let's talk about the zero. I'm not talking about Jay -Z. I'm not talking about Beyoncé. I'm not talking about even Sombr. I'm I'm talking about 90% of the people on the planet who are pursuing music. There's

There's no money. So that's the people we have to educate. That's

That's what we're doing.

Yeah, my people. Thank God for us, bro. That's the audience

There's money, of course. There's There's no money in America. Okay, Okay, they're still printing cash. We're We're in a trillion dollar deficit. Nobody Nobody has jobs. Well, Well, the rich are getting richer. That's That's what I'm saying. There's money there at the top. But But what about the other 90%, which is the average customer, the average citizen who wants to sing and dance and pursue their art? There's There's no money. It's hard to make money. It's It's hard to develop repertoire. It's It's hard to pay for recordings. It's It's hard to market yourself. Who's Who's shooting the videos? Who's paying the videographers? Who's Who's running ads? Even Even if it's 100 bucks a week, a lot of people can't afford to spend 100 bucks a week. Some Some of the record companies are spending $150,000 a week to run ads on Dominic Fike on one song. How are you going to compete? But I got a $100 budget. Okay, Okay, but I don't even have $100 to spend a week. That's That's $400 a month. I

I can barely pay my rent. rent. So that's what I'm saying. There's no money in the lower class and in the middle class. It's It's all in the upper class. And that's why those companies are still printing cash because of that catalog. It's that simple. But But the future could be healthy if we change the mentality of how we're seeing the business and where the money is flowing and finding the right partnership so we could actually get to a place where we can earn. Okay,

Okay, let's walk through that. That sounds hopeful. I mean, mean, let's go positive for a second.

So it's going to take you three to five years.

Okay. I'm up for it, Chris. Okay, I'm up for it.

First things first, make sure you're mentally healthy.

Oh, nope. I'm not. Okay, well, make sure you're spiritually and emotionally mature to handle. Working on it. The The ride of your life. Yeah. Yeah. True. You

You need at least 500, at the minimum, to release a song where you control the rights so people aren't telling you how to move the master around and you don't have to get anybody else's approval. You need at least 500 bucks. Unless Unless you're making the music yourself because you're a DIY artist who produces and writes their own songs and mixes and masters, you need to hire people and pay them a couple hundred bucks for a production. You know, $50, $100 for engineering and mastering, right? You got to pay something or you don't pay anything. Then I own half of your master as a songwriter and as a producer. And And I'm validated and asking for that because because I did a service for you.

So if you can't pay for it, then I'm going to make my money on the back end. can't pay for it, then I'm going to make my money on the back end. And now I own your master. And And if you ever decide to exploit that master, you need my approval. So why would you want to put yourself in a position where you have to get somebody's sign off on your own identity, your music, right? So So you got to at least have something where you control your music, right? Yeah. And then you got to like build audience and advertise and shoot content either with your iPhone, which is free, but you still got to pay for something that has a good camera. And then you got to market it where you could get it to some people and start building an audience, right? It It could be 30 people on each release, but you know, the, you know, the for you page killed the followers. So I don't care how many followers you have. You You got to get your music to people who are looking for that. Right. And And it's all about attention. How How do you get their attention? So So there's ways to build commerce by, you know, running ads and building fan pages and running meta ads on Facebook and IG just to get your music to an audience that may not be looking for it. So they could eventually click through and save and add and share. And

And now you got five customers on your first release. Then Then you got to do it again. Then Then you got to do it again. Another Another 500 bucks. You got to put out like 20 songs before you get any traction. The The idea of going viral off of your first release, you have a better chance hitting the big six. Okay. Okay. You're not going to go viral, right? And

And then monetize the viral.

Doesn't mean you can monetize it because because there's a lot of songs that go viral. And then you look at the streams and they have 2000 streams. streams. That's 20 cents. You know what I mean? So at at the end of the day, it's consistency, behavior, repetition, evolution of your brand. And And then one plus one equals four. By By the time you're 20 songs in, you may have spent just on opportunity costs. Ten grand. Do you got ten grand? Okay.

Okay. You don't have ten

Okay. You don't have ten grand. So So now insert business partner. Right? And who's that business partner? It It could be your manager who got ten grand. But But why should your manager invest ten grand if they don't have any rights or ownership for the long game and they can get fired? So So they don't want to invest it. So So a label wants to invest it. Good or bad. And I'll invest ten grand into you putting out ten masters. And And I want to own those masters with you. I I don't want you to own my masters. Okay. Okay. Then I won't invest ten grand.

My shirt says own your masters.

right shirt on today. You

have the right to own it. And you also have the right to pay for it.

Yeah. They typically come together.

But you also got to pay for it. Because let's assume you decided to start a sneaker line. Yeah. Right? Okay.

Okay. Those

Those sneakers you're wearing. And I decided that I want to help you scale that sneaker line. And I feel like you've been making these sneakers in your bedroom. And I can help you sell more sneakers. So I'm going to give you a quarter million dollars. And I want 20% of your business.

Don't touch my equity. Right?

That's insane. I can help you take it to the next level. And you don't have to spend a nickel. And And there's a great chance that we fail. I lost a quarter million dollars. You didn't lose anything. You just gave a 20% equity. So So you got to be smart about what are we giving up? See, once upon a time, the record companies had these six album deals. It It would take you 20 years to get through your deal. Yeah. Yeah. Right? You You didn't own anything. You You had a 14% royalty. You You sold 20 million albums, but you haven't recouped. Because every single time you had success, they gave you a bigger advance. They They charged it against your 14% royalty. And you're always short. And And then the debt just gets higher. And And now they exercise the option. They give you another advance. And all of a sudden, you're in a deal. And And there's language in these deals. It It has to be commercially and satisfactory to the record company. So

So if I told you I don't like the song, I don't like the production, I don't have to release it. And And now you're three years trying to finish a 14 -song album. And I can keep on telling you I'm not going to accept it. Which is subjective. That was in the contracts. You You couldn't get out of it. I'm You have 100% creative control. I I can't stop you from releasing music. I'm I'm going to put in the contract that I will release a single every eight weeks. I I want 30% ownership in those seven songs for perpetuity. And And I'm going to invest $25,000 into it. So

So what do you think an artist needs to do to secure that first 10K investment that you mentioned? Because Because I think that's a reasonable number. It's It's not anything crazy, but it is still a good amount of money. At At what stage in their career do they need to be? And And who are these people that are giving artists 10K right now? There's

There's so many entrepreneurs who would love to be in the record business. Who would love to invest $20,000 into a girl they met at church that they think is going to be the next Whitney Houston. And they made some money in the plumbing business. And they have some money sitting around. And they want to invest their money into helping this young girl build her dreams. So

So it could legitimately be people that they just know. Anybody. Friends and family.

That's how founders. They first do a friends and family round before they do their Series A. And And your friends and family are usually your uncle, your auntie, your grandmother, your neighbor next door who basically sold a family business for $10 million and has a few dollars sitting around and loves Sally's little daughter that sings. Wherever Wherever they are, you got to use your network and ask. Because a closed mouth don't get fed. And find your investor or your business partner. Now, Now, I don't always want it. Where you're taking the money from depends on the deal. Because if the money comes with also expertise, then that money is more valuable to me. If the money comes with no expertise, then that money is less valuable. But But that also requires less scrutiny. Maybe you don't want somebody telling you how it should sound or giving you notes on the artwork. Maybe Maybe you just want an investor, an angel, to leave you alone and just collect their 15%, 20% based on sales and they may not ever get their money back.

So that's why I said you got to look for an investor or a business partner. A a business partner. A business partner comes with more weight. They actually have value. They actually have expertise. They have a Rolodex. They have an understanding of how to scale your business. An An investor may just have the cash. Yeah.

Yeah. And

And I've seen many scenarios where somebody found an investor that gave them 20 grand to make an EP. And And they don't know what to do. They don't know anything about the music business. But I believe in her. And And I just wanted to invest in her dreams. But But to build that traction, you just got to show the audience, whoever that is. That audience could be your uncle, who's an oil billionaire in Texas, that follows you on Instagram. And And that audience could be actual customers who are activating your streams and your commerce. But But you got to show the audience that you're serious.

Yeah.

And it's not a hobby. And And you're actually focused on building a brand. And you're consistently looking to make music or promote your music or release something. Either or. Because there's a lot of times where you never release a song and you find an investor. But it's because I'm watching you socially. I'm seeing you online. I'm seeing you post a lot. I'm seeing you promote yourself singing covers. And And then I'm like, oh, I know what to do if I invested and I took you from the cover to an original song. Because I have a recording studio and I have songwriters and producers who can help me make original music. So So it all depends. But you just got to show the audience, whoever that is, that you're serious about this endeavor. So,

So, you know, you kind of mentioned what record deals used to look like. Some of the most common, like royalty, you know, percentages, etc. And

And the crazy part about what the record deals used to look like is that 71% of you guys are not subscribed to the channel who are listening right I humbly ask that you like the video, leave a comment and subscribe to the channel. Thank you

Yes, please. It's insane to do that.

One more time, baby.

Let's go, Chris. Anyway, so you were telling us about like the most common terms that, you know, you saw in record deals from the past, right? Major Major labels still exist. Obviously, they're still doing deals. What What do some of the major label deals look like today? Anything

Anything and everything. They'll do any kind of deal to get the market share. They They don't care to even have ownership because because most of the people who run those companies will be gone before there's any exit anyway. If that company decides to do an IPO or sell its entire catalog. So these guys are just honestly keeping the lights on and putting a lot of money and bonuses in their pocket based on market share. And And they could care less if they own your rights anymore because they're making so much money off of dead people. It's not going to make a difference either way. Wow.

Wow. So, So, you know, how does that impact the artist that is open to like a major record label deal?

Leverage. Leverage. Like, honestly, there's no everybody's on the same table. Like, Like, once upon a time, you would compare major deals to indie deals. They're all the same. Labels Labels are happy to give you a licensing deal. They're happy to have ownership for 12 years and then give you your rights back. They're happy to do a short term deal where it's six to 12 masters with a mutual option. They're They're they've changed their entire business model because they know that at the end of the day, they don't have the same power they once did to lie, cheat, steal and gatekeep. So So they know that the rumors out. We We don't really need you. We know that the rumors out. We don't really need you. We just need your money. And And a lot of the people who work at these companies don't even understand how the music industry works. Believe it or not.

Oh, no. They're

They're so brainwashed and so stuck in their old ways. They don't even understand the customer and how the customer activates with new artists. So So they're just happy to still be in the frontline business. And they're happy to do any kind of deal that's competitive to get them to artists that therefore gets them the market share that artist is successful. They'll They'll even overpay for the deal. Well,

Well, so help me understand like where they're missing the mark then in their understanding of like the customer, right? Like Like what do they think versus what is reality? I'm curious. Just like where's the disconnect, right? Like

Like they're still figuring it out day by day. They're They're learning through the behavior of the audience and they're adjusting accordingly. I I mean, a lot of these companies are firing their entire radio departments because radio drove consumption for most of the music industry's existence, right? They're They're firing these salespeople who would literally talk to big retail like Walmart and Best Buy and Sam Goodie Mob and talk about how many records they're going to ship to get that first week number so they can get their bottom line paid off of the first week and then move on. Because Because distribution is free. I can upload a song right now and it's distributed worldwide. So So all of these like entities inside the major corporation, whether it's marketing departments, radio departments, sales departments are now evolving and it's requiring less people to do the job. So So they're learning as they go. They're downsizing. They're doing a lot of cost saving, saving hundreds of millions of dollars on executive talent. And they're basically being more reactive than proactive. They

They don't have to be proactive. They don't need to do artist development. All All they need to do is let it be developed and then they can overpay for it and see where they can help you scale it. If they even know how to even scale careers now, because because once upon a time we could tell you exactly what was going to happen based on the money we spend, based on the producers we hire, based on going to mainstream radio. Based on a tour, based on a late night TV performance, based on an ad in MTV or VH1 or BET, we knew exactly how many records we would sell. We We knew exactly how much money we would make and we would know exactly how to get to the bottom line every quarter. Now Now we're all in the same game. So So it's almost easier to manage your risk by supporting the legacy artists because you know they're good for X amount than to invest in artist development and frontline, like new music business. That's That's why you see all these companies acquiring companies. They're

They're just acquiring revenue streams. They're acquiring catalogs. They're acquiring distribution units so they can get more pennies on the dollar, right? So So if I acquire Fuga downtown, I'm acquiring hundreds of thousands of titles, Universal. Whether these titles are making millions of dollars a year individually or not, one plus one equals 40. In this case, because I acquired the whole independent distribution system, right? Therefore, Therefore, increasing the value of my company, therefore increasing our market share in the music business, therefore increasing the money Spotify pays me every quarter based on market share payouts. If If you really understand the business, it's a race to the bottom because because they know that there's no artist development happening and they don't even want to spend the money to do it. So So they'd rather just acquire, acquire, acquire, insert independent company, insert independent mindset of how you could maneuver through the business because there's no more tape. Everybody could play on the field.

Now we need money. So So where are those investors coming from? And And that's why it's about finding the right business partner that works for your situation. There's There's no two wrongs, two rights. Like Like everybody's in the same battlefield of trying to break new artists. Atlantic Records has the same pressure in Tom, Dick and Harry Records to break a new artist because because we can't manufacture audience. We and no disrespect. They They don't influence the customer like they once did. That's huge.

Yeah.

Yeah. The The way that the audience is influenced has just totally changed. It's

It's totally changed. I

mean, like who would have ever thought streamers would be more powerful than fucking late night shows? I mean, right. Like, I don't know. I mean, mean, that's the core part of what these labels probably still are, to your point, reacting to. They're They're not seeing that ahead of time. I mean, they're just having to figure that out as they go. go. And so, yeah, the like big legacy acts to way more comfortable. They They know what the revenues are going to be. It's very consistent over the years, I'm sure. And And they can play the same games, like the same radio games and the same arena touring and all that. Right. And

And it doesn't work. And they learn through behavior and the consequences of their behavior. Because if it costs you $150,000 to go to urban mainstream radio and a quarter million dollars to go to top 40 radio and you actually spend the money and you don't see the result commercially, which is streams and sales. Yep. Right. And even tickets sold, which the labels don't really participate in so they could care less. They They care about the product. Selling records. So So you spend money at mainstream radio. It doesn't translate. You put an artist on national TV and you spend $50,000 on a creative director for them to sing and dance on SNL or any of those stupid talk shows. And nothing happens. And then an artist goes on iShowSpeed's live for free. And it's like 200% jumping streams. Yeah. know what I mean? So

that's the behavior that happens that is forcing those major systems to adjust. It's It's just based on audience behavior. So So they're learning as they go. And streaming is becoming a new medium to break out artists, to introduce product into marketplace. And And I'll tell you right now, my young nephews and nieces, 14, 16, they don't have any desire to be an artist. They They want to be streamers.

Yep. My

My son, who's six years old, he said, I say, Phoenix, what do you want to be when you grow up? He's He's like, I want to be a YouTuber. Yep.

Yep. Same with my nephew.

He didn't say he wants to be Bruno Mars.

Yeah. He

He wants to be a YouTuber. So that's what I'm saying is is the in real life experience. I I think we're going into the personality era. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like if I don't see you, if I don't know it's live, if I can't see any like imperfection in the feed, I don't believe it. Right. Right. How do I know I'm actually talking to you guys right now?

Yeah. Hormozi calls it the trust era. It's like, how do I know? know? How do I try? I got to hear the person be a human to earn trust with them because almost everything else is being commoditized at this point. Yeah.

Yeah. So those long form, big budget videos, waste of time.

Yeah. You

You performing on a pre -taped network. How How do I know? Right.

Right. How do I know it's you?

But AI now you can manipulate even movement. So So I just think we're in the era of personality and in real life. And And I think it's exciting for innovation, for disruption, for artists to kind of try things because there's no rules anymore. But with with that said, it's going to take a long time to actually get to the money. So So you got to enjoy the ride. You You have to like have endurance. You You have to have lots of repertoire. You You got to have something that makes you an individual, that makes you feel different or similar. Right. different or similar. Right. Whatever that is, whatever I'm looking for. Like, I never seen anything like that. Or he feels just like he's he's that's my life. That's my story. Whatever it is. And And it takes repeated impressions over a long period of time to build a brand. And

And that requires consistency before I trust the brand. And And that consistency may have to occur over the course of 36 months. So So you need enough gas in your tank for you to keep that car on the road for 36 months. And And that's where the business partner or investor comes in. And And it doesn't have to be for your whole career. But But if I was an artist in this day and age, I would not spend my own money trying to develop my artistry. I I will give up 50 percent of my business for a group of masters. Right. To To get a little further ahead so I can start earning some money and actually invest in myself and then own a larger stake in my rights or own even all the rights.

Yeah. But so why do you think a lot of artists are adverse to that? Because

Because they're uneducated by bad lawyers. And that's the bottom line. The lawyers have ruined the industry. And I can't wait for them to be AI'd out of business. No, no, no, listen.

Listen, I mean, if the shoe fits, I mean you too. The

The lawyers are uneducated about the music business. They They understand legal language. And they're still in that same boat of, well, my artist, my artist. But have you ever developed an artist, Esquire? Do have you ever developed an artist, Esquire? Do you know what it takes to actually build a career? Do Do you know what kind of money and what type of warfare business partners, artists, managers, labels, publishers have to indulge in to actually get to a place where they're even making $10,000 profit? You You don't. So So you're confusing your artist on how the business works because you feel like you're looking out for their best interest. And And in fact, you set them up to fail. You You put them in a deal that was way too competitive for where they are in their career. I I overpaid on the advance. I I overpaid on the investment to record them. And And now I'm so underwater I can't even market them. But

But you got that big advance for your client and you got your commission and you got paid and you're happy and your client thinks I've got a huge advance and you just put me in debt. So now I can't even afford to market you. So now what? Now Now your career is over and not. So I really think the big problem is uneducating these artists on deal flow. Because Because if your artist has no leverage, why are you asking for all that advance money? If If I were you, I would tell them to put it on. I I always say, put the money on the screen. Like Like put it on the screen. Content, advertising, visuals, storytelling. Don't Don't put it in your pocket. I'll I'll give you a living advance. I'll give you a stipend to keep the lights on. But you may still have to work a nine to five for two years. But these lawyers want you to do a deal so you could quit your job. And then you don't even know what it feels like to actually work hard for something and earn your keep. And And I promise you 95% of these deals end up with the artists being dropped a year later. They They lost all the momentum. The

The record company is underwater with debt. The is underwater with debt. The manager is underwater with debt. The The lawyer got paid. The manager is underwater with debt. The lawyer got paid. The lawyer already got fired. So they knew they were going to get fired. So all they wanted to do is make sure they got their piece of that advance. And that artist is now back to square zero. I I see it happen online. And And if you're a lawyer, tell me otherwise. Because I don't trust you guys anymore. And

And for some reason, they've

they've they've given these lawyers way too much power. Because remember, the lawyer signed you to those fucked up contracts in the first place. Because they were in cahoots with the record company. And And guess who pays the lawyer's legal fees? The The record company. So So they almost push you to them, put you in those deals because they know they're getting their fee. Because they know there's this 95% chance they're not going to be representing you in two years. There's a 99% chance you'll get dropped. And they got paid their $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 fee. And And the record company pays their legal. In every deal, it says legal fees on top. So So my artist gets a $25,000 advance. And guess what the lawyer got? $15 $15,000. So So your lawyer got paid 70% of your advance. You You think you got a deal because, well, the lawyer's getting paid on top. So I don't have to pay the lawyer. No, No, the lawyer should get 5% of your $25,000 advance. Not $15,000 on top of your $25,000 advance. Look

Look at the deals. And these artists are so uneducated. I just see them getting taken advantage left and right. You got these lawyers.

lawyers. Like still though? Still getting. This is happening every single day.

These lawyers are outpricing these artists that have no real skin in the game. No momentum. No commerce. Their catalog only generated $15,000 because they have like 4 million streams. And the lawyer's asking for a quarter million dollar advance. I need 70 million streams just to pay the advance back. And then they want a quarter million dollar marketing fund. And I'm just like, and they're giving me 12 masters. And I'm just like, okay, great. This This is a great way to end your artist's career, right? They're uneducated. They They don't understand how the business works. They They don't know how to make the pizza. They They don't know how to deliver the pizza. See, See, this is why artists, the first person you need to hire is a business partner, which is mostly your manager. But But for some reason, the artist doesn't even want to hire a manager until their lawyer does a deal for them. And And their lawyer tells them not to hire a manager because don't hire a manager yet because your manager is going to commission your deal. Wait

Wait till after you get a deal. Why Why the fuck would I want to manage you after you already signed a deal and you already, I don't get no commission. I'm I'm working for free. You know, after that first advance, you're probably not going to make another nickel for 24 months. So So now you hired a manager after you signed a record deal. Your Your lawyer advised you not to hire a manager while you were shopping for a record deal. So you don't have to commission that manager. And now your manager is working for free and scrunted. Why Why the hell would they work for you? Right?

See, but I've never thought about it that way. I've never thought about it that way.

I would hire a manager first. Yeah. A manager, business partner first. And then I would never hire a lawyer for a percentage. I I would say I'll pay you your hourly fee and it's equivalent to the deal. So So if my deal is X amount, I'll give you either 5% of my advance, not off the top, or or I'll pay you per hour. And And it's up to you to let me know exactly what your hourly fees are. Yeah.

Yeah.

And if I got to pay you $600 an hour, I'll pay you $600 an hour. But But these lawyers are getting paid tens of thousands of dollars on the deal and and they end up putting more money in their pocket than the artists. Yeah.

Yeah. I just even look at, I mean, should I just look at even artists that, I mean, they're not even at that stage where they're getting deals presented to them. I'm just thinking of artists that are so, I don't know if it's just like this stigma around like even, you know, the own your masters thing where like the thought of giving up a percentage of their business or their song ownership to someone who can grow the business with them. Grow Grow the business. That's

That's all they have. You You got to do something with it.

Yeah, but they like, they think it's insane. They

They got to probably.

Yeah, but they don't have to do anything. They They can be completely independent. They can fund everything. And there's a lot of investors and business partners that will actually invest in you without owning anything, which is totally fine, right? They'll They'll do a five -year license. They'll do a 10 -year license. And And I think you have to build your leverage to get to that place where you could command those kinds of deals.

So what is leverage, bro? What What is leverage? What What is leverage? It's like we hear that all the time. You got to build leverage. And I'm like, bro. Recurring monthly revenue? What

What are we talking about here? There

There needs to be value in the asset. If the asset I'm investing in is the master. Sure.

Sure. I

I just look at to see how much money was generated from your masters over the course of the last 18 months. Well,

Well, none, Chris. I'm a fucking To me, there's no leverage there. Hence why if I'm going to invest into you - Yeah, but you know what? So why if I'm going to invest into you - Yeah, but you know what? So am I.

No, honestly, as a business partner, so am I.

Yeah.

You're a great talent. You can sing. You can write. You're great looking. You got charisma. You're a star. But I have incredible business acumen. And I understand the way the business works. I know how to scale you. And And I know I have information on how to build your business into a commodity that I actually could earn. So So to me, when leverage is, I have value. It's It's just like a startup. Like Like I came up with a granola product. I'm selling it out of my kitchen. All All of a sudden, sales this month were 2,000. Sales next month were 4,000. Sales in 20 months was $40,000. That's That's leverage. So So I can now put a value just based on the consistency of me going from 2,000 to 4,000 to 8,000 to 40,000 after 12 months. I I can say in three years, this could be a half a million dollar business.

Well, that's the thing.

But if you got no leverage, what am I putting a value on? Hope? Hope? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, but see. Yeah. But I think what you just shared is so important, man. And I don't know if you understand what you just said. It's like being able to share that story and have the numbers and the data to back up even just the story. Because even if you haven't gotten to some crazy amount of earnings, you can show the growth and you can be like, hey, in three months, I started from X and now I'm at Y, people can start to kind of wrap their heads around that of like, oh, shit, I can kind of see where this is going. Because Because ultimately, there is going to be like some degree of a leap of faith. I mean, like it's a startup. People will understand the risk, right? There's risk. People will understand the risk and people will also see the market potential based on audience behavior. People

People are buying into it. If you're increasing in view count and comments and interaction on your social media, if you have 2,000 followers, but you get 1,200 likes every time you post something, that tells me something. Versus 20,000 followers and you're getting 100 likes. Like Like I'm going after the artist that has 2,000 followers and 1,200 likes for every post more so than the artist that has 20,000 followers and 100 likes. Like I'm not, I'm not confused by the hype.

Yeah.

Like what's real is what's real. If people are at the party and they're eating the food at the party, that means they like what the chef is cooking. A lot of people go to the party and they'll never spend their money at the bar. So it's all hype. You You ain't make no money. You got all these people at the party, but nobody's spending money. So So to me, it's like, who's spending money at the party. Right. And And that's what I'm looking at because I know that I could then scale that. Like Like that's real tangible information. See See the lawyers. And I'm saying they're not in the weeds. They're not in the weeds.

Dude, the lawyers are catching so many. They're

They're not in the weeds with the artists. They're

They're not in the weeds. They

They don't understand what it really takes. Like Like those four hour shoots, buying the film, editing, paying somebody $200 just to do edits on short form content, spending 50 bucks a week on Facebook ads, paying that engineer to make that mix a little brighter, putting out the record, like talking that artist off a ledge for three hours a night because the artist is suffering from depression and working for free. And And then you're like, damn, bro, we haven't made no money. Like you have 2 million streams, which is only eight grand. And And if I'm sharing the master with you, I made four grand. And And then we also have to give master points to the produce. So So at the end of the day, it may have taken us like a year to get to 2 million streams. And we only made eight grand. And And now you're asking for $200,000 advance. Like, Like, what do you mean? Like you're about to, you're negotiating yourself out of a deal. And

And now because of like FOMO, you convinced some company to invest. Now Now I'm forced to like compete on the deal that in my stomach, it just doesn't feel right for me. And And we lose. And there's a 99% chance I'm going to lose. I'd I'd rather invest on the screen, give you enough money to pay your bills so you can at least make music more than part time. But I'm not going to tell you to quit your day job. And And then through action and success, I'll continue to invest. Like, Like, why, why wouldn't you want me to invest at that pace? If I told you I will invest for the next five years, but but you just got to like, give me a break. Let me do this gradually. But But they want all the money off the table on the signing. And And I keep on seeing these deals. And I've seen five of these deals in the last 12 months that the artist is dead. And And 12 months ago, they had the biggest hype in the record business. So

So I've seen it happen. So

So is this what you're experiencing at Electric Feel right now? Like, are these like real life examples of signings that you're trying to do at the new venture? Listen,

Listen, at the new venture, we are focused on artist development. We are are not competing. We are not playing any games. We're not overpaying for deals. We We will spend the money accordingly. We're We're not cheap. But will spend the money accordingly. We're not cheap. But we also are smart. This is a five to seven year business proposal for us. Every artist, we're not going to see any profit for the first three to five years. So So we have the mindset that every artist we develop, we're not going to see any return for five years. Therefore, Therefore, I want to be in business with you for at least five years. I I want to make sure that we're in bed with you for at least enough real estate that we could actually get to a business. Right? So So I don't want to do six song deals. I I want to do long term deals where we invest hundreds of thousands of dollars across the year over five years. Where Where we may end spending two million dollars by year five, but we're not going to spend a half a million dollars in the first six months. Right? Right? Gradually build a repertoire and build a system that could actually yield the result you're looking for. Because there's something about momentum. There's something about consistency. There's something about not looking at the scorecard and having a long game mentality. And

And those are the winners. Those are going to be the winners of tomorrow. Because Because all that virality, like maybe we'll get one of those if we're lucky, but we're not relying on it. The idea of having seven number ones on one album, Katy Perry, broke Michael Jackson, number one record. You know how much money we spent at Universal?

I mean, how much? I would would love to hear that number.

Are you kidding me? To To get to that seven number one record? $15 million at least. But But now she's a unicorn and she's printing cash for the record company. for the record company. Wow. Which Which is why Wall Street's getting in the catalog game. Listen,

Listen, they're making at least $10 million a month. Wow. Wow.

Nine figure a year businesses. These records companies. So

do superstars still exist? Are we done with that era? Like, who's the most recent superstar that's been built up? Because I feel like the second I think an artist has momentum, to your point, and they're like really growing, really growing, then then I do feel like I don't hear from them again. I don't know. I mean, I don't even want to use it. I don't want to say any examples because - You have one on the 10 -year -time. I did have one, but I don't want to do it. No, do it.

You got to do it.

I just feel like my guy, Kenny Mason. I feel like you - I mean, all due respect, who? who? Okay, well. well. No, I mean, a superstar? I mean, he was really growing, and I thought that he was like poised to be, you know, maybe Well, again - He didn't hit that.

He hasn't hit that.

No, I know,

- You said the word superstar. Lights, camera, action, brand deals, costumes. Okay,

No, I know, but - You said the word superstar. Lights, camera, action, brand deals, costumes. Okay,

you on Halloween.

All right, fine. fine. But I think a superstar, that's

that's what I'm thinking about.

Then let's even use - Very successful artist. Then Then let's even use J.I.D. I I thought he was going to be like the next superstar in rap.

Yeah, but J.I.D. is a superstar to somebody, right?

I mean, sure, but - He is a superstar,

right? Is he a household name? I I think J.I.D. is one of the greatest rappers in the world.

Well, so do I, but - I

is a star. I think J.I.D. is culturally more relevant than 95% of every hip -hop artist on the planet, and and we had J.I.D. on one of Katy Perry singles, Artificial. The The kid's a fucking star to me, but but superstar, that's in the audience, right? He's a superstar to somebody, right?

Yeah,

But when you talk about the mainstream superstar, my Nigerian mother who doesn't know anything about anything

Does she know J.I.D.? No. No. She She doesn't. So that's what I'm saying. But But she knows Taylor Swift.

Sure. She She knows J.I.D. She She knows Katy Perry. She knows knows Zara Larsson, believe it or not, right? Because Because they've - But it took Zara 12 years to get to this place, right? I was

was shocked to see - She's the newer one, yeah. Yeah, but I was shocked to see that you had signed Zara originally, right?

A &R on her first album that has five billion streams. Wow. Never Forget You, Lush Life. The The album is called So Good, and it has all those hit records. Never Never Forget You, Lush Life, that's now, was a top 10 record 10 years later. I I met Zara Larsson when she was 17 years old in Stockholm. I flew flew to Stockholm. L.A. Reid signed her to Epic. I flew flew to Stockholm, drove to her family home, met her mom, met her dad, met her little sister. A &R on her record, put her in the studio, introduced her to producers, writers, vocal producers, cut her in L.A., cut her in Stockholm. And And I love Zara, and I believed in Zara, and and I always thought she had huge potential, and she was an incredible singer. Did I know that 10 years later, Lush Life would still be a hit record? Did Did I know that 10 years later, she'd finally get her flowers for something that we saw in 2015 when L.A. Reid signed her to Epic Records? No No way. I I just knew she was an incredible pop artist that had an incredible voice, incredible work ethic, and we loved the music we worked on together.

But so what happened? The whole part was following up.

Oh, no, no, no. I mean, mean, I don't write songs. I I hire writers. I hire producers.

Some A &Rs, though. I don't don't get involved in that stuff.

I don't ever want to be disrespectful to an artist and try to be in the studio. Even Even if I gave an artist direction on lyrics or melody or told a producer to rearrange a song, you would never catch me asking for publishing.

Yeah,

Yeah, well, that's Chris. Come on, bro. Did you really mean that? I

I wanted to let the audience know who

who I was like, you know. That

That was for them.

I'm

I'm well compensated. I was always paid very well.

Yeah.

Points. I'm I'm very blessed and abundant in my life. I don't need to ask for more.

But so what happened with Zara? Like, what was this, like, recent? Like, what's happened? happened? I don't even know.

She went through a low. And And just based on being a consumer now and no longer, like. Like married to it.

Yeah.

Like, I was an employee of Zara Larsson. I worked worked for her. Yeah.

Yeah. So

So now being on the outside and seeing, you know, she had a low for two and a half years. And she was written off.

Yeah. And

And she reinvented herself in an era where people were looking to grab onto something. And this whole brand identity came. Like, Like, this whole way we see Zara, this rainbow, what's it called? Y2K. Yeah. Neon. And And she just tapped in and people bought in. And And then Midnight Sun, sonically, the record, the feeling, the artwork, the branding, the performances. People discovered Zara for the first time.

I'm one of those people. I'm one of them. I legitimately. Through social media. Yeah. I legitimately was not tapped in. Like at all. You know? know? And I mean, I didn't realize she had been making music for that long. I mean, mean, literally I saw her and I was like, oh, wow. This seems like a overnight success. And clearly not. You know, a guy I'm like interviewing. It's kind of encouraging, right? Kind

Kind of means that. Because I feel like back in the day more so, it's like if you missed that moment. You were done. You were kind of done.

You were cooked.

Is it more possible now?

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Nowadays, the only person who isn't delusional is a customer. And And the music business will always be three minutes and 33 seconds. One hit record will change your life. One One hit record will reestablish your career. It It all comes down to the songs and the audience, right? So So when you got Zara who reintroduced his whole brand identity and was very consistent in the storytelling and the costuming. She already paid her dues, right? The girl could sing her tail off. She's one of the greatest singers in the world.

The

The girl could perform her tail off. She's She's trained. She's been on tour her whole life for a decade. She could dance. She could perform. She's She's the real deal. When When you then discover this persona through this new brand like Gravitas and then insert hit record, Midnight Sun with this fresh sound. She She found a whole new audience who then looked at the historical data and said, oh, this girl's been making music since 2015. And started listening to songs like Never Forget You and Lush Life and Symphony with Clean Bandit. And said, oh, shit, this is really good. I I love this song. and Symphony with Clean Bandit. And said, oh, shit, this is really good. I love this song. And now they're consuming. They're binge watching. It's like discovering a TV show on Netflix that's been out for five seasons and you never knew anything about it. it. And then you saw a clip on social media. You liked it. You're like, oh, my God, let me go watch this show. And And then you just watch every episode. And now you're a fan. That's what happened with Zara Larsson. And

And she deserves it because she paid her dues. So So now this is actually an artist that is set up for global takeover because she paid her dues. She She laid the groundwork. She toured the world. She's She's had multiple hit records, whether you heard them or not. She She has over seven billion streams and she's been all around the world. And And now she's ready for the main stage. And And I think this is just the beginning of what you're going to see with Zara Larsson. That girl girl is a star and she's going to go all the way.

Yeah. It's just so interesting, right? Because Because it's like, had you stayed in touch with her over these last like 10 plus

Yeah. Yeah. I love Zara. I love Zara. I I love her management. I I know her little sister. I I had a great relationship with her mom. Her father I met once. They're a great family. I I saw her at a Billboard Woman in Music Awards a few months ago. I I was so excited to see her. She She was so excited to see me. We We hugged. We kissed. And she was like, I was just listening to X Song, a song we did 10 years ago that I actually pitched her.

Wow.

Wow. And I was so happy for her to just be so grateful for the work we did together. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you you know, how was her mindset over this last decade plus, right? To get her to, because I don't know. I just feel like. Resilience? Yeah. Yeah. Because she's, you know, she said she had like a lull, right? right? And like. She had a lull. They wrote her off.

off. They said Zara Larsson is dead. She had a couple projects or at least one album that didn't perform well. They had no hits.

Yeah. And

And she just decided to kind of take control over her career. Because Because for all those years, for most of the round of Zara, she was A &R'd, right? She She was signed to an independent company out of Stockholm. She She was A &R'd by great record men. L.A. Reid, myself, Roger Ames, who's part of her management team. We We would give her songs to sing. We We would hire vocal producers. We We would bring in. But But you know what's great about Zara? She's She's the greatest student. She She knew she wasn't quite a songwriter back then. But But she was open to taking direction from people who actually know what they're talking about and know what they're doing, right? People People that have had hit records. L.A. Reid. People who've developed superstars. People who understand where to get the great songs from and who the great collaborations are and how to help you culturally in an American market because you're from Stockholm. And And I was able to like guide her.

Her manager was able to guide her. L.A. Reid was able to guide her. Sylvia Rhone was able to guide her. listened. And And then you get to a certain age where you start taking more control over your career. And And you have an identity of how you want to see yourself and you want to tell your story the way you want to tell it. And And she started to do that. And And you win some, you lose some. But But then she cracked it. And she cracked it with Midnight Sun. And then she cracked it again. And And she's driving the car now. And then she cracked it again. And she's driving the car now. Zara's in the driver's seat. But But she'll tell you when she started, she was told what to sing sometimes. And she was told who to work with. And she was given vocal producers and engineers to vocal producers a certain way. And And it worked. Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's what the record business does for artists. Like Like we're not fucking scrubs. We We actually know what we're doing. And And some of these artists need to be A &R'd. They They don't know what hit records are. They They don't know how to make the pizza. They They think they know, but they don't. And And that's why sometimes having a business partner that comes with A &R, that comes with marketing, that comes with know -with -all could actually be helpful to your career. Because Because if it wasn't for great A &R men and women, half of these artists that we talk about today wouldn't be existing. Because they were developed by great record people who gave them great material and put them in the studio with great producers and songwriters to help shape these records.

Yeah, but see what I Yeah, but so what I think the issue is is that specifically for our independent artist community, right? It's It's almost easier, of course, to be like, hey, Zara, L.A. Reid, he's done this a few times, right? Like Chris Anakute, he's done this a couple of times. I know, but I'm just saying. But where I think it's beautiful that Zara is a great example of someone who was open -minded to listen and be coached and to take suggestions. But But then also simultaneously what I'm hearing about Zara from you is that she also knew when to take over and have her own vision and execute against it and trust her own instinct. So it's like having that give and take where you do have to kind of know what the fuck you want to be and what you want to stand for. But you got to fucking open your ears, too, and listen to some people, right? You You don't know everything. You be and what you want to stand for. But you got to fucking open your ears, too, and listen to some people, right? You don't know everything. You don't.

That's exactly right. And that's the great artist, right?

Yes. It sounds like Zara has that.

No, no. She's a world -class recording artist.

Yeah.

This girl was born to be a star.

Yeah. This

This girl paid her dues. This This girl understands how to be coached, which is very important. Jordan knew how to be coached. Yep. I feel.

It's true, Yes.

And that's why he's a champion, right? LeBron knew how to be coached. coached. You got to be coached. You knowing how to be coached can make a difference on whether or not you even get into the NBA. Yeah.

Yeah.

Or the MLB. Because Because you're coachable, right? So So these artists need to know how to be coached. They need to also know who to take direction from based on their own understanding of historical data. Oh, this person, ex -artist, success story, A &R, songwriter, had hits here, producer, does live music, understands this world. You You got to know how to be educated to know who's going to deliver the pizza, right? And And help you make the pizza. And she's extremely coachable, which is so important. And so now, now, one major red flag for me with artist development and signing and developing talent, if if you aren't open to taking songs or collaborating with songwriters and producers, I can't work for you. Because now I'm putting all the value in your intelligence as a songwriter and a creator. And And I can't be so sure. I'm

I'm not saying you're not capable of making hits, but perhaps consider the possibility that somebody can help you. And And if you're so territorial and you don't want anybody to have any input over the kind of music you're making, the direction of the music you're making, perhaps songs to sing. Yep. Yep. I don't want to be in business with you. Me

Me neither. I I love that, dude.

It's tough.

I fucking love that.

Straight up. I don't want to be in business with you because because now you're perhaps a liability. I I got to rely on you because because what if somebody sent me, imagine, John Lennon. Yeah.

Yeah.

What if somebody sent me rude boy, Rihanna?

Yeah. What

What if somebody sent me teenage dream?

I don't want it. I didn't write it. Right?

Right?

Like, you won't even try your vocal on it. Yeah. Yeah. And going back to Zara, she always tried. Now, Now, there's been times where we cut records on her and she said, I don't love it. And And we even knew, you know what? This doesn't feel right for you. But But she always tried every song we pitched her and that's why she's still here and she's just getting started. And if you could compare that to another artist who's probably one of the greatest A &R person to me of this entire last 20 years is Robin Rihanna Fenty. Because Because she doesn't write those songs, but she knows how to inspire you to write those songs for her because of her star power and her energy and her aura. And And she probably has more hit records that she was able to identify. Because Because there's 100 songs being pitched to that girl a month for the last 20 years. Everybody wants a Rihanna cut. But

But she was able to identify the hits. Please Please don't stop the music. Rude boy. Work, work, work, work, work. Ponder Ponder replay. Right? Where Where she knows what a hit record sounds like and she knows how to make a Rihanna. And And to the point where, yeah, she did write it. How How about that? She She wrote it as far as I'm concerned because I believe her. So that to me is the... Those artists are very important. The ones who understand what hit records are and how important hit records are. To your business. Because music sells everything but it sells. But I bet you the more hit records you have, the more tickets you sell. The The more hit records you have, the more beauty products you can sell. If that's what you want to do. And the more hit records you have, the bigger the brand that can have more value to command more dollars and everything else. So So the music industry will always be about a hit record. And don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

If they're telling you otherwise, they're lying to you. Hit Hit records move everything. And And when I say hit records, I'm not talking about radio chart topping number ones. That's That's the old hit record. I'm I'm not talking about a song that's number one on TRL Countdown. I'm I'm talking about a song that hits the customer in a very significant way. And has hundreds of millions of streams or even tens of millions of streams. Because Because your hit record could sell you 400 tickets. You You put out 10 hit records for your audience. You're selling 700 tickets a night. Those hit records don't have to have a billion streams. But But for your indie audience, you have 20 million streams, 10 million streams, 8 million streams. That That hit a lot of people. Don't take that for granted.

Yeah.

Like the idea of I need 100 million streams. I need a half. Good luck. Get Get 100,000 streams first. Then Then try for a million. And then to me, once you get 3, 4, 5, 10 million, yo, you got a hit. Whether Whether you believe it or not, I'm telling you, you got a hit record. And And that could command audience and that could sell something. And just keep on trying and keep on writing and keep on releasing. And 1 plus 1 equals 4. That's That's the music business. Olivia Dean, 10 years. Like, Like, are you kidding me? Who Who has the stomach? What What investor, what manager, what record company, what artist has the stomach for 10 years of being kicked in the teeth and making no money and performing in front of 200 people a night and losing $1,000 every time you got to fucking perform? I don't want an investor. I want to do everything myself. Okay,

Okay, good luck paying for the road because you're going to starve. You're You're not going to have the money. Do you know how much it costs to do a show in front of 100 people? Like, Like, you know how much it costs to do an eight -city tour? You You got to rent the van. You got to fill it up with gas. You You should have a professional driver because you don't want to, like, risk your life driving the van or having your drummer who's been up all night performing with you, driving in the middle of the night. But you have to because you can't afford a driver. And And then you got to pay the musicians because you're not going to go perform to track. You You got to present yourself. So You got to present yourself. So just to be on your first headlining tour, you're losing $10,000. You're losing $20,000. Just to do your first headlining tour and you have 30 million streams. Just to do your first headline tour, Mercury Lounge, Moroccan Lounge, 250 seats, you're you're losing $10,000 just to do your first headline tour. You're

You're trying to make it up in T -shirts. That's

That's a lot of T -shirts, Chris.

So now you need $5,000 of tour support because you did the budget. You You got to rehearse for two weeks. You got to hire the MD. You You got to hire at least two other people to go on the road with you, a tour manager and a guitar player who's running a laptop. I'm I'm not even saying a full band.

I'm

I'm not even saying a bass player, a drummer, a guitar player. I'm I'm just talking about a road manager that is going to drive that band or help you with those flights and one other musician on stage that can also control tracks. So So he or she is playing the guitar and they're running all the other tracks on the laptop. That alone is going to lose you money. So So now you're down $5,000. You You need tour support. Who's going to give you tour support? Exactly.

Exactly. Your Your business partner.

That's why you need a partner. It's It's not just I want a piece of this and I want a piece of that and I'm not going to do anything for it. It costs a lot of money to build a career. And you need to go on that first headlining tour, even if you're performing in front of 200 people. And And you need to sell those tickets. And And it's hard to sell 200 tickets, believe it or not, even with 10 million streams. Go Go try. You You know what I'm saying? I know a band who has 90 million streams. I I know a band who has 90 million streams and they can't sell 90 tickets in New York City. Okay.

Okay.

Okay. They got to go on the road. But 80 seats, three months later, 150 seats. Six Six months later, 250 seats. A year later, 500 seats. Two Two years later, 1,800 seats. Who's Who's going to sustain you through that period of artist development on the road? When When you're losing money every tour until you sell 700, 800 tickets is when you actually could probably start making some money in your pocket. Somebody got to invest. That's That's why you need a business partner. But But your lawyer told you that they're trying to take advantage of you. They They outpriced the company because I put all the money in your pocket. And And now I don't have enough money to invest in tour support, in developing your live show, in hiring a vocal coach, not a vocal producer. Somebody to just help you train your voice for the road. This This is all artist development. And

And this is what Berry Gordy. This This is what David Geffen. This This is what Clive Davis. This is what Ahmet Ertegun. L.A. Reid, Babyface, Jimmy Iovine, Dr. Dre. Dre. The The list goes on. The great record man would invest in these things. It's It's not just in your fucking hairdresser or your fucking stylist to make you look good for a shoot. It's It's in everything that happens behind the scenes to get you on that stage. That That rehearsal that costs $200 for every four hours. And And I'm rehearsing you for three weeks. That That MD that costs $3,000 just to put together your live show. And they got to go through all the stems of all your songs and configurate a show. Paying that drummer. Paying them a per diem every day when they're rehearsing with you. So I'm paying the drummer $150 a rehearsal. I'm I'm also paying for their lunch. There's There's three of them. That's That's $450 just in salaries. Then I got to pay for food.

Then I got to pay for the music director. So So I'm spending $1,200 a day just to rehearse you. And And I'm doing it for three weeks. Well, that just cost me $21,000 just to get you on the road. Then Then I got to hire somebody to create the light show or create the graphics that go on the screen because you're performing in front of 500 people at the El Rey or the Bowery Barroom. Who Who do you think is paying for that? You're You're paying for it out of your pocket. And And do you want to pay for that? So So I'll pay for it. I'm your record company. I'm your manager. I'm your business partner. And And I'm now in debt another $50,000. I I just told you. I gave an artist $35,000 in tour support to go on tour, on a club tour. 16 markets, 300 cap rooms. We We made no money. I I had to pay for her to go on the road because because I had to rehearse the band, hire the vocal director, hire the music director, pay the band, get her a little small tour bus. And I never made the money back. It

It took me eight years to recoup 150 grand inclusive of that tour support. This This is the business partner. They're They're going to wait seven years to recoup. But you know what? We We got the stomach for Olivia Dean 10 years later. We We got the stomach for Zara Larsson 10 years. Right? So that's what I'm saying. It's a long game. And if you're not looking at this as a long game approach and you're not trying to find the business partners that are invested into the long game, then you're never going to make it as a recording artist. Because Because there's so many things that have to be paid for behind the scenes that has nothing to do with singing and dancing on TikTok. They They have nothing to do with Spotify and Apple streams. Right? That That we, somebody has to invest in to develop you. And And that's where artist development is dead. Because nobody wants to spend the money and nobody has a stomach to develop the artists. Because the truth is they don't have the skin in the game where they're going to be compensated because of the lawyers. I'm I'm being honest with you. It's

It's because of the way these deals look. I I don't have any ancillary. I don't don't have a piece of your touring. So So why should I invest in it? It's It's not going to help me stream. Like I just told you, you got 90 million streams. You can't sell 90 tickets. So So I clearly know how to get streams. You You can't sell tickets. So So to me, you selling a thousand tickets isn't going to get me a million streams. So So why am I going to spend 35 grand to put you on the road when I'm not getting a piece of your touring? And And you're not going to make any money touring for three to five years anyway. So So I don't want you touring. But But imagine if I was developing you as a real 360 artist. And I said, you know what? I'm I'm going to sign you at 16 years old. And you're the next Bruno Mars. And one day you're going to be performing in front of 60,000 people. And And I don't care if it takes me $5 million worth of investment. I I am going to break you. That's That's the business relationship we want to have with artists at Electric Feel. We We want to be in it for the long game. And we know that we have the stomach to endure and the cash to sustain as long as you're on board. And I feel like that's where artists have to find partners. All

All these short -term deals in and out, good luck. luck. You're always going to be dating and breaking up, dating and breaking up, trying new people. I I think it's about finding the right business partner with the right acumen, with the right philosophy on how the business works and how long it's really going to take. Like no smoke and mirrors. I'm not selling anybody a dream. It's It's going to take you three to five years to start making money. You You will starve. Don't quit your day job. Don't take too much money off the table. Put the money on the screen. And And touring is a loss for the first 24 months. Unless you're selling 700, 800 tickets and it takes a lot of time to build that fanfare. Just Just because you have a song with 100 million streams doesn't mean you can sell 700 tickets.

It's

It's going to require somebody to invest in your tour development. And And that's all part of artist development. And And that's the reason why we have the Bruno Mars. And that's the reason why we have Michael Jackson. And that's the reason why we have Beyoncé. Because Because Pink and all these artists. Because somebody spent a lot of money to make those artists who they are today. And And then you've got artists like Sombr, right? And And Dominic Fike, the next generation of stars. And Benson Boone, who are also being funded at the highest level. I I told you, to promote some of these songs, Warner Warner Records is spending $150,000 a week on just advertising for one single. To get it in front of your face every fucking day. This is real business. And And we're happy to spend the money. If we see the signs and we know that we're in the game for a long period of time, right? So I just think it's about understanding the business. Knowing what I bring to the table. And also me knowing what you're willing to do to succeed.

Like, are you going to sleep in the van? Are Are you going to eat ramen? Are Are you going to go out on the road without a full band? Because we can't afford it, Sally. Can't Can't afford a full band.

Poor Sally. Sally. You

You may have to go out with just a drummer and tracks. I I don't want to perform without it. Well, do you know what? We We can't do the tour. What What do you want me to tell you? We We ain't got no money. We ain't making no money. But But you got to still get out there and perform in front of people, even if you're doing it with a drummer and a track and a laptop. But you still got to get out there. So even some of them are entitled. Some of the artists feel like it's like the good old days. Well, I need a band. And And well, who's paying for the band? So So I think about educating. And I would rather educate the artist on what it really takes than to blow smoke. Because this is your livelihood, right? And And I'm not going to lie to you. It's going to take three to five years to start making any money. Do Do not quit your day job just because you got a record deal or you got a business partner to invest in you. And you're going to be doing most of the work. Like 90% of the work is going to be done by you. So So there's no victim mentality. There's no codependency, even with a label. If

If all the label did is pay the bills, that's enough. I'm I'm just being honest with you.

Damn, that one hurt,

was pay the bill, that's enough. You're You're going to be doing all the work. And And you should know how to do the work. Hence Hence why you should have a great manager who's aligned with you in a business relationship to kind of do the artist development. Look at the Chappell Roan story. The The managers are developing the artists. They're They're almost part of the band. To me, the artist and the manager are the band.

We're

We're an investor. part of the band. To me, the artist and the manager are the band. We're an investor. Yeah, we have some know -with -all. have marketing. We have digital. We understand the business. But at the end of the day, if we're just spending the money, that's enough. And And I tell artists that now. I said, I gave you an advance. I'm I'm paying you a living stipend. I'm I'm spending money on advertising. I'm I'm spending money on recording. I'm I'm giving you a studio. I'm I'm paying your producers. I'm paying your engineer. Do Do not ever give me any grief or make me feel like I did something to you because I paid the bills. Damn.

Damn. Chris, Chris, we've entered a final segment of the podcast. God damn it. Do you

you guys still have the stomach for this? Dude, I - After this episode, I hope you do. That

That was a big, like - Bumps a wake -up call. Gut Gut check. You know what I mean?

Chris, I have something very special for this final segment. I'm I'm calling it sign or decline.

Okay. Let's go. So

So here's how this is going to work. I I have seven artists that I'm going to describe. And you can only sign three of them. But you have to make the decision as we go along. So So you got to be smart about this. Okay. Okay. I I might give you one trade if you sign three. I I think I'll allow one trade at some point. But you can only end up with three. And that's it. So So let's go ahead and start with the first one. We're We're talking about, he's 19, dropped out of college, no budget, no team. He He bought a beat online and recorded the song in about an hour. His His entire marketing plan is memes. Do Do you sign or decline? Decline.

Decline.

We just declined Lil Lil Nas X.

Listen, I declined today. I don't care how many records he sold. I would have never, I wouldn't sign him today. There There it is. Oh,

Oh, shit. I I love how honest Chris is, man. We sign him today. There it is. Oh, shit. I love how honest Chris is, man. We need more Chris's in the world.

And to add to that, I knew it was going to go down in flames. When When he started being blasphemous in a very public way to the Lord Jesus Christ, I knew it was over. And he hasn't recovered since.

Yeah.

I guess, is he down in flames though? though? I mean, he's down. He's

He's down. He's down. Nobody's talking about Lil Nas X.

Yeah.

All right.

Next. Artist

Artist number two. Late 20s. A decade of grinding. Two indie albums. One year into a major deal. She just put out what she calls the best song that she has ever written. And absolutely nothing happened. And now she says if she quit music today, no one would notice.

Sign. Hmm. Does he know who it is?

Well, it's any, let's, I want to get a sentence or two of your thought process.

The reason why I was signed that artist is because I've been in a situation with an artist who, you know, was kicked and, kicked and bruised, but not broken. And And 15 years later, she had a number one record and won a Grammy for best R &B song. It was nominated for best new artist, Muni Long.

Okay. So

So I know that that, that foundation is important. Like, Like, like that God's universe rewards you when you have that much resilience. So So you just, I wouldn't give up on that artist. Is

Is that Muni Long? That

That artist was Lizzo. That That song went number one, two years later. Okay.

Okay.

Great signing.

Would you sign Lizzo today? Well,

Well, listen, I would have signed Lizzo and I would have had success with Lizzo and I would have continued developing her repertoire to keep her on the charts, right? Because Because she was hit driven and you have to keep that up. And unfortunately she's not having success. Why? Why? Because Because she doesn't have a hit.

God comes back to the hits, Henry. Artist

Artist number three is 19, just moved to Texas, from Texas to LA to live in a content house and is seeing some very promising traction on SoundCloud right now. Sign.

Sign.

And thought process? You

You know what? I I think I love that, that attitude of living in a content house.

I

I think that understanding of content, social gravitas, media is very important for artists in this world and and I would bet on that artist because they're already walking them with the right philosophy. Who

Who is it?

it? You just signed Post Malone. Whoa!

go! Not bad, not

not bad.

Damn. So

So there's four artists left. You've signed two, just so you're aware. I I think they're great signings.

They are, they are. We

We got some left. So artist number four, 22 years old, signed to a major at 17 off of a YouTube upload. Five Five years later, the label says that her new single doesn't fit the sound. They They drop her. And at the same week, her four year relationship ends. So So she has to move back in with her parents and work at a drive -thru. I,

I, um, decline. Okay.

Okay.

Interesting.

Interesting. And I'll tell you why. Because I wouldn't have moved back. I

I got to keep on going.

That resilience is very important. It's indicative of that spirit of the artist. Okay.

Okay. They

They have what it takes to really endure this, this rigmarole of the record business.

Okay.

Well, the resilience did come back because that is Chappell, Chappell Roan. Okay.

Okay. okay.

resilience popped. popped. It came back. Maybe she just had to go down to come back. You know what what I'm saying? Okay. Okay. So maybe worded it kind of

I mean, now listen, for all due respect, I don't know her music. maybe worded it kind of tricky. I mean, now listen, for all due respect, I don't know her music. Yeah. a fan of Chappell, Chappell Roan. I I never bought into it.

Yeah. Same. I

I wouldn't miss, I wouldn't miss sleep. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Cool. Cool. That was a, then that was a good decline. I

I would say so.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Moving on to artist number five. In her early teens, never released any music, no manager, no plan. A A family member writes and produces a song in a bedroom at their home. She She sings it and they upload it to SoundCloud and it's starting to see some real buzz.

Decline. Mm

Mm -hmm. Interesting. Why, why is that? I

I just don't like the idea of an artist not leaning into the artistry. A relative role. Early teens. I know it's Billie Eilish. It's It's Billie Eilish. You You know what I'm saying? Fucking Finneas. But I know it's Billie, but I would sign Billie and I love Finneas. And in fact, that artist that went on tour was with Finneas. But But I just, oof.

Yeah.

I would have declined that one if I didn't hear the song.

Yeah.

Yeah. But when I heard Ocean Eyes, I knew it was a bullet.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But if I just heard that story without hearing the song and that tonality from Billie, I would have passed. Like, Like, oh, I don't want to take a risk on a teenager who didn't write the song. Somebody wrote it for them. Who says they even want to be an artist? Right.

It's true. It's true. It's true. Okay. Okay.

Indeed. Okay. Artist number six, around 30 years old. She already had her major label album. It It flopped and she got dropped. She She spent the next 10 years writing hits for other people. Now Now wants to relaunch as an artist under a new brand name, independent with her own money. I

I would sign her because if she wrote hits, once a hit maker, always a hit maker. Okay. Okay. We because if she wrote hits, once a hit maker, always a hit maker. Okay. We just signed Muni Long. Oh,

Yay. Yay. Let's Let's go. I love this game. Sign or decline, baby.

And that's a very important. That's very important. Although Although understanding that singing a hit record and identifying a hit, insert Rihanna, is very important. Like Like the idea of hoping somebody writes a hit record and knowing that my artist can write a hit record. Yes.

Yes. Valuable. I'm

I'm going to bet on the artist who could write a hit record so

Yes. That's right.

Yes. Absolutely. All right. So last artist, you have three. So this is your opportunity. If If you like the sound of this artist, you can trade one of your artists, but I want to know which one and why, if you'd like to exercise that option.