What an A&R Hears That You Don't: Why Good Songs Still Fail ft. Justice Baiden (LVRN)

An artist knows exactly what you're supposed to do, which is to get attention. You don't need a middleman. You You don't need anybody. Coming from a head of A &R. It's It's a dying art form. I I think I'm doing too much. The The whole point is to do too much. You actually actually are the gateway. How How are you gonna cut through? Because Because you have a good song. Are you tripping? The The songs have to be good to stay. They don't have to be good to crack. Important distinction. great song performed okay or an okay song performed great? Okay song performed great. Yes. The The market is to get people to see it. So once they see it, is it gonna last? At At one point in time, a record label was signing an artist. And And to make a record, it used to cost a lot of money. Thousands of dollars, right? And what the A &R's job at that point in time was supposed to do is once you sign the artist, is to make sure that this artist has prepped the song and has done it so many times with this live band. And to make sure that once they get in the studio and they record it on that tape, they get it done as fast as possible.

No f*** ups. Can't have any because that's gonna cost the company too much money. That That was the point. That was where the A &R started, right? Then it became, alright, you know, the artists are not just like working for the label. They're actually starting to have power. Real power. And they don't really listen to the record company. So So who is the guy that's going to be the shooter that makes the artists and the management believe that they are for them and they are going to get their wishes through to the record company? And And that was kind of like their job in that instance. Now Now where we are today, what the A &R, I guess, is supposed to do, is supposed to identify as talent, sign the talent, then kind of do what we were talking about, which was communicate the talent's wishes, vision to the whole company and to champion and to find the records and to help them, you know, get the records out. Now Now where we are today, you don't need anybody. You

You don't need a middleman. It's the harsh reality. It anybody. You don't need a middleman. Coming from the head of A &R. It's the harsh reality. It just is, right? It's a dying art form. What the A &R to me is supposed to do today is be willing to put your job on the line at all times. How How can you test what you actually believe in? Are Are you actually in it with the artists and can you stand up to your bosses? That's That's not happening because everybody's scared. So they don't do that. One. One. Two, are you going to find the talent that nobody's saying that this is going to be anything because it has like 10 views on YouTube? Or Or are you just going to wait till the algorithm kicks in and says everybody likes it and then you're going to try to go sign it? So So the part of waiting for 10 views and having a conviction, that's also out. So So it's like when you see something go viral, which is why it's just like when something go viral, every A &R is on it.

You're too late. It

It just is what it is, right? And And also it just, you're not special, right? At that point in time, it's just how much money do you have and what leverage do you have to close a deal, right? So So that to me becomes more of like the closer as versus what an A &R kind of is supposed to do. So I think like now you combine those two things. And the third thing is just like it's helping develop and create a vision for the artist, right? How can we actually communicate what the artist is trying to do and make it tangible to the world and convince them why they need to make certain decisions or take certain risks? And And I think that like that in itself is an art form. It's one of the hardest things to do.

Yeah. Well, so because, you know, we had Amber on, you know, a fellow executive at LVRN and she talked a lot about like, I mean, in today's day and age, like the artist has to have a lot of stuff kind of figured out before they even get to the point of maybe where a label deal makes sense, right? Like Like how much do they need to have figured out like with the music or with their vision or with the story that they're telling before they enter your world? It's It's a trick question because... because... Stop tricking him, bro. Because the issue is how much time do you have, right? Because

Because at one point in time, you can sign an artist and you can develop them for four or five years till they finally put out their first record. That's That's just not the case anymore, right? The case right now is just like if you put out a record and let's just say it happens to connect, now the whole world's watching you, right? So you're developing in real time, in actual real sight. So So because of that, it kind of like has cut into that developmental time that people might see as versus to me now, I just think that the development is in real time and you just have to just like rejig how you kind of look at it. So So does an artist have to come fully thought out through and through and know their vision? No. No. I I think the one thing the artist has to do is they have to know themselves and they have to know exactly what their voice is. That That is the part that I guess removes all the other noise because the sound we can figure out, right? But if you know what you want to say, that's the most important part and

and I can't give you that anymore.

But so like... That has to be authentic.

I think that's the most important part that has to come from within, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

this self -awareness thing comes up every episode. Let's Let's go ahead and just get it out of the

have a t -shirt that says self -awareness.

It would have been a great one to wear, but that's a funny one too.

But

But that's not even just a music thing, right? I I think that reigns through in every medium,

right?

think that reigns through in every medium, right? The reason why people like your podcast is because you guys are authentic to who you are. And they can tell that you guys have a natural rapport and it's not being faked, right? If it's not just podcast, content creating as just like an influencer, a business person, whatever it is. The reason why people like certain people is strictly because there's a sense of self.

But so then why do you think certain people can do that really well and like really hone in that like authentic sense of self versus those that struggle with it? Like Like where's the disconnect? I

I think there's two things. One is like the reality of, let's just go straight to the point. Not

Not everybody's an artist. Okay. Okay. Right. When you say that, what do you mean? mean? I want to make sure everyone - Meaning I think that like the lines have also been blurred, right? Like

Like a lot of these people that are putting out music are songwriters. They just are.

Okay.

Right.

I think it gets worse than that. I mean, you get someone that is good at content, maybe gets attention, becomes an influencer, and then just kind of dives into music because music's a little easier to make. Let's Let's not even talk about how easy it is with AI now. But even before then, you could pay a producer, an engineer to like set you up for some level of quality.

Yeah.

Yeah. And just because you have an audience, you could put a record out, right? 1

1,000%. And that

that to me, like I think that people have to understand the clear cut point of what it means to be an artist. Like artistry in itself is like, it's an art form. It's the way like I present. It's the way I pull up somewhere. It's the way I have a conversation. It's It's just the look that I even give you, you know, when we're having a conversation. It's It's not just like the in -between, right? It's It's just like, it's all those nuances and all those details that I feel like are personified within somebody's character or what they're choosing to portray. And And they know how to communicate that properly, right? I I think it's just a lot of people that are just like existing and they might know how to write a song. They might know how to catch a moment. But like the art form or the art and the way you're going to say Frank Ocean could have said something else, but he said swim good, right? You know what I'm saying? Like that that in itself is an art form. It's just like, and he knows how to communicate. He's He's created a language that makes sense for him and his, you know, his audience. Like, you know, I'm wearing an Elton John t -shirt, right? Like

Like Elton hasn't broken character in 70 years. Yeah.

Yeah. It's not even his real name. You see what I'm saying? So it's a perfect segue to like something I think about a lot. Like how much of this should be a character versus versus your regular degular self? I

think there's two different types of artists. Okay.

Okay. You

You can break this down to just like an actor, right? There's There's method actors and there's actors that just like are really good at just like playing the role and just getting right back to themselves.

Yeah. Right? Like the method actor, they don't break character. Like

Like when Will Smith is making a movie and he is like literally Ali, you have to speak to him all through when he's actually like doing his acting. When he's off camera, the months leading up, he has to never break the character. And And that is one side of being an artist, which is just like, no, like I actually, this is who I am. Like Like I'm actually this wild human. Right? And And then there's, you know, there's, you're going to take, for example, a character like The Weeknd, for example, when he had the red suit, you know, during that whole album rollout. That was him just playing that character and and he did it and he got out. But he committed. Yeah.

Yeah.

He didn't break character. playing that character and he did it and he got out. But he committed. Yeah. He didn't break character. He committed. And once he was done, he got out of there. And

And you think both can work? 1000%. Yeah. Yeah.

Because if the commitment is what makes people feel like, all right, this is one, is this real or is this not? They can't really decipher.

Yeah. Right?

Right? And I think what social media has done and was where it kills artists is because people get glimpses of the artist's breaking character. Like Like I would like, oh damn, like I would like, yo, that artist really like, I like how he dresses. Everybody has an entry point to liking an artist. Right? I like how he dresses or I like his lingo in songs. And then, you know, he might do a story, like an Instagram story and you might get like a three seconds of like, that was a weird move. I I didn't like how he laughed right there. You're kind of lame. Actually, I don't fuck with you.

See, See, that perception gets broken as

as versus like in the 90s and 2000s, like the golden era that we talk about, there was no social media moment. every time you got an artist, it was exactly how they packaged it and how they wanted it to look.

Now you can just point your phone at your face and people can see you.

It's so freeform. And you just get that moment and they break the character. You'd be like, ah, I actually don't like them. So

So they shouldn't do both. They They should probably be conscious of which of the two that they're leaning into, right? Yeah, Yeah, you got to know the script.

What script are you reading? You know, like, and also, are you aware? I think the biggest issue is that like a lot of artists don't know why people like them. You You can ask some of your favorite artists why people like them. And the answer they'll give you nine times out of ten is not the reason why you like them. One

One of my favorite exercises is literally ask your closest friends, like, what is your perception of me?

Yeah.

It's eye opening. You You guys think you know who you are. You You have no idea what other people like think of you. You would be shocked to find what other people's just base level perception of you is. Genuinely, it's just not what you think most of the time.

Yeah, but so are you saying that top artists that are doing this at a very high level don't know the correct answer you're saying? They

They do.

They do. Okay, exactly. exactly. That's what I meant. I'm talking about the ones

ones that don't make it. Correct.

Correct. Okay. Okay, good. The ones that know are the ones that are sticking to the script. They understand through and through. And And how can we, again, we're all about trying to help people with practical advice. Is Is there a thing I can do, right? right? Like to Henry's point, ask certain amounts of people or do some like workshopping. How can they try to understand that better? It It sounds like that's so important.

It's from within. Yeah,

it's from within, but also like the easiest way to do it is just to really pay attention to the commentary, right? And And really understand. understand. Nine times out of 10, the commentary is true, right? There There is some truth to it. There's underlining truth, right? And And it depends on how you process that commentary. Because Because somebody might see a comment and be like, I don't know, just give me a dark comment or just something like negative about an artist. This

song is ass, bro. Okay.

Okay. Okay. It's not a good one. It's not a good one at all. But, but, but, okay. So. No, Ben Riley. Riley. No, no, no. You want to do that? I I want to test how good my brain is. Okay. Okay. Okay, this song is ass, right? Because I was a bad example, song is ass, right? Because I was a bad example, bro.

So this song is ass. Do

Do you know what the average person, the average artist would do? Especially if they have like a string of this song is ass records.

Which is great, by the They're going to start fighting people, right? Okay. Okay. They're going to start fighting people. They're going to start arguing online. They're going to start giving up. They're going to start some frustration.

You know what Little B did in the late 2010s? Lean

Lean into it? Leaned

Leaned into it. Ooh. Ooh. He He is good. He

He leaned into it to the point to where the narrative flipped. It's

It's actually so bad, it's good. He made worse records.

All hail the bass guy. You You don't like this? Let

Let me cook. Exactly. Exactly. This This is what I'm saying where it's just like, if you're paying attention to the commentary, how do you actually flip the script?

That must be tough though, right?

Yeah.

Because if it's one thing that, again, because you said the artists that don't make it, they have this thing in their head. Yeah.

Yeah.

And then if people are reacting in a different way, that's not the way it is in their head. Yeah.

Yeah. It

It does seem like natural to like want to stick with the thing that was in your head. Right? Right?

Yeah. So

So is that like a humility thing? Like, what is that? An An open -mindedness? Like, what are we dealing with here? I

I think it's a sense of stupidity. Okay. Well, that's good. Let's dive into that. Because in no other median does that work, right? If you're taking a math test and you keep getting the answer wrong, that does not mean one plus one is going to equal three every time you put it just because you wanted to put it there. There's

There's obviously a lot of error in that. So

So now you have to figure out how to remake this thing make sense. And the presentation doesn't have to be how your teacher said to do it, but you still have to get to the same answer. So you have to just rework it. And like, I feel like a lot of it is like philosophy. A lot of it is - Problem solving. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Really

Really just re -engineering. Yeah. Social reworking the perspective.

-engineering. Yeah. Social reworking the perspective. I like to equate things to like science experiments. Yeah. Amber talks about trial reels and I go to like, yeah, this is literally a giant science experiment. Let's Let's change one variable, you know, whether it's the text hook or the visual or whatever it is, and let's re -upload it to trial reels and see the difference, right? right? And then we compare data and then we come to conclusions based on the data. It's almost like a fun, like maybe, I don't know, maybe y'all would be better suited thinking about it as little science experiments. It It works for me.

No, for sure. So, So, so who's the last artist that you signed LVRN? The

The last one that we signed to LVRN was Belly Gang Kush. Okay.

Okay. And so I love this. Yeah. I love this. This is perfect. So So just walk us through. I just want to understand like from an A &R's perspective, how does Belly like come onto your radar at all? What What are the conversations leading up to the signing, right? Why? Like then you sign him. Then what? I want to get like the whole kind of like trajectory, right? From From your lens. I

I had to take a break from today's episode, guys, because I'm terrified that too many of you are not collecting all the royalties that you're owed. It's It's hard enough to make a dollar and you guys are leaving money on the table. Unlike your master royalties that are generated when you upload through your distributor, publishing royalties do not get collected by default. Could you hypothetically register your song with hundreds of collection societies around the world? Yes. But ain't nobody got time for that. That's That's why a pub admin like KOSIGN, the sponsor of today's episode, is extremely beneficial to make sure that you get every single dollar that you're owed on the publishing side of the house.

KOSIGN is backed by the fourth largest music publisher in the world. So they have an absolute beast of a machine supporting you to make sure that you get every dollar that you're owed. They're

They're selective with who they work with. That way they can provide the best customer experience possible for their clients. But it's free to apply. So there's absolutely nothing to lose.

The link's in the description. experience possible for their clients. But it's free to apply. So there's absolutely nothing to lose. The link's in the description. Now let's get back to the episode. Radar. Okay, so how it comes to my radar. I I moved back to Atlanta. I was living in Los Angeles for six, seven years. Okay.

Okay. Welcome back. Yeah, Yeah, thank you. I

I got really bored of it. I I just wasn't inspired. And I got back and I was just like, I need something to do. I need something to work on. I need something like, that's just going to be a challenge, right?

right?

And I'm just on, I'm on YouTube, like just day in, day out. Just like hoping that YouTube algorithm takes me to something. I'm just typing random new artists, old artists, whatever it is. is. You know, YouTube algorithm is going to do something. You You know, three months later, this comes across my screen, like a random video of this guy. And I just see, I'm just like, and he sounds like this. And I'm looking at him. And I'm like, I love this.

None of this makes sense. So then I walk outside of my office. I just yell out to the staff and all the guys that are in the office. Like, yo, has anybody heard of this kid?

And shout out to Silas, one of our guys at the squad. He was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard of it. I heard of it. And I was just like, well, somebody find me, this kid? kid? Like, is he signed? And it just so happened to an A &R that works at LVR now, Red. It It just so happened that, like, actually, ironic, he used to work for Troy.

Yeah. Yep. We just got done talking about Redd Push. Shout out. We interviewed him a long time ago.

out Red. And Red was just like, yeah, yeah, actually, it's just, I spoke to him, like, not too long ago, because I was thinking about bringing him to Venice. And I was like, all right, cool. cool. Like, see if you can bring him in today.

Oh, wow.

And he hit him up, and he came in today, and I met him and his manager Monday. And I was just like, I really like this. And I was just like, I really like this. But he wasn't a deal. So I said, Red, listen, I really like this. I I think he's authentic to what I heard and, like, his story. And, like, they're smart. They're smart. He He knew exactly what he was doing. He He knew exactly how to get people going. You You know, like, he was in and out of jail. He He was showing me some of, like, the social media campaigns that they were running and just, like, the juxtaposition and, like, the songs he was writing based on what was happening. He He was very smart. And I'm like, this is the type of artist I want to work with. He He knows exactly who he is and knows exactly what he wants to tell. I was like, yo, just keep an eye on this, you know, and just, like, stay close. And I told them, I was just like, yo, I'll sign you. Just Just get out that deal. You You know what I'm saying? And, like, six, seven months later, you know, Red was just always just still with him, and he got out the deal, and we signed him.

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

I want to just, I want to shine a quick light. There was, like, he glossed over something I think there's insane value in. This is head of A &R at a big label, guys. You guys understand. You know who he is by now. When he's looking for new talent, he could have easily said he was scouring Spotify's algorithm, SoundCloud's algorithm. He He was on YouTube, okay? I just think that's a testament to, like, the music could have been one thing, right, that might have grabbed you, but it was the whole thing, right? It It was the visuals, the package that grabbed you. And I hope that lands for y'all that, like, the music, yes, it has to be good, and that is the ultimate product. Yeah. Yeah. But it was his world. It was his visuals with the music that caught your attention and led to where he's at now, right?

1,000%. I

I just think that's huge, man. I hope that lands.

Well, so it's really good observation, seriously. So, So, like, what's easier to hone in on, right? Is Is it easier to dial in the visual aesthetic? Like, let's say his visual aesthetic didn't quite connect, but the music was fire, or is it easier to dial in the music, or do they both already need to be at the same level? Because Because those do seem like two very important pieces of the puzzle. Yeah,

Yeah, none of it is easy to dial in, but it's easier to dial in when it starts again at the core when you know yourself. Self Self -awareness. That is is the key, because because it's like, we don't have to shoot an expensive music video. We We don't have to shoot anything expensive. It's It's just like, hey, this is the camera. I I know how I want to present myself, so so please shoot me from this angle, from the waist up, in this way. You You can't catch me, like, doing a weird move, because I know that's not, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's that awareness that you just know. When When you work with another artist that doesn't have that, then you realize that, like, oh, you're going to let anything slide, right? You You don't even know what makes sense for you. So because of that, the whole thing is confused. You know what I'm saying? I

I think more people are likely to know their strengths than they are their weaknesses, and it's almost like being more self -aware of your weaknesses and your blind spots is almost more valuable than knowing what you're good at.

1,000%. I I think that is the complete key to self -awareness. You're You're not going to ask me to do a math problem right now in front of you. It's

It's not my strength. Square root of pie.

if we ask you to show up to the pod in cool pants, I mean, he's going to nail that exercise. He does wear cool pants. No, that's interesting. Yeah, Yeah, I love the YouTube thing. So, all right. So, we sign Belly, right? Stuff's already, like, he's already self -aware. He He knows what he's doing, right?

Great marketer. Yes. Attention Attention capturer. Exactly.

Exactly. Yes. Yes. So So then, where do you think you can come in and add value to something like that, right? I

I think at that point in time, what we do is to just amplify,

okay? Because

okay? Because he has the idea, and we just add to the ideas.

So, let's give some examples of ways that you kind of amplified what he had going on. I

I mean, his whole story is about being an ex -drug dealer, right? And And coming on to, like, trying to make it clean, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, Okay, cool. We're doing merch. What's the best way to sell merch? Clean

Clean white tea. 1 1,000%. And And let's wrap it like a brick of cocaine.

And the amplification is, like, us using our relationships. And, like, okay, cool, like, like, Jermaine from Denim Tears is, like, one of my close friends. All right, cool. Like, Like, let's link y'all together. You know what I'm saying? Like, Like, let's get you some of those cosigns that you need to, like, as you're doing these, like, you know, stunts. Again, it's just, like, it starts at the core and really realizing and understanding who the art is. Because at the core of any good idea should be free. I think we all believe that.

that. We've heard that before. before. You know what I'm saying?

love it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The money should just... Just amplify. Amplify. Amplify. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And, And, I mean, you literally said stunts. Like, Like, I don't know. I feel like our artist community are maybe, like, nervous to do things like that. Insecure. Or, I don't know. Like, maybe to them that sounds inauthentic when really that's just, like, dialing in the authenticity. It's the most extreme version of yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

Because, again, people have lost... Because they're not artists.

That's what I'm saying. They're They're not artists.

An artist knows exactly what you're supposed to do, which is to get attention. The The point of this whole thing, an artist wants the ego fed. That's That's the whole point. They They want to communicate something and they want people to agree or disagree, but they at least want to have a conversation. Right? Right? So, if they're having a conversation and you're like, oh, I don't want anybody to see me. I I don't want to entertain. I I think I'm doing too much. The The whole point is to do too much. You You actually are the gateway. I'm I'm actually living my life vicariously through you because I'm not allowed to do too much as a normal human. Right? Right? So, I think that people trick themselves out of what the job is. Right? I saw... This was a few months ago when the J.

Cole album was coming out. Right?

Great rollout. Yeah.

Yeah. And there was the Hondas that he was driving around in. And Twitter was divided. It was like, oh, I can't believe he's cosplaying like a broke person. And I'm just like, you guys don't understand. The The point of the point is for him to entertain and to put his thing into a world. But But the fact that there's all these psychologists out there that just know the right answer, he created a conversation. And that means it worked. Because you just said something. Great rollout. It worked. worked. At At least somebody saw it. In In this climate, how are you going to cut through? Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, Like, there's literally streamers that are streaming for 24 hours straight. People People are streaming for 24 hours straight. Dipping themselves in peanut butter and doing all sorts of weird shit. How is you as an artist? You You think I give a fuck about your mixtape? How

How are you going to cut through? What What is your thing? Because

Because you have a good song. Are you tripping?

But like, it's still... The songs have to be good, Yes, of course the songs have to be good. Okay, good. Thank Thank God.

I'm sure you heard the people out there yelling. I was

like, please, Justin, tell me the songs have to be good. I me the songs have to be good. I mean, the songs have to be good to stay. They have to be good. I mean, the songs have to be good to stay. They don't have to be good to crack. Right. good. I mean, the songs have to be good to stay. They don't have to be good to crack. Right. Right.

They don't have to be good to crack.

Important distinction. Yes. Yes. Because

Because you got to understand, like, at the end of the day, the market is to get people to see it.

Yeah.

Yeah. So once they see it, is it going to last?

Yeah.

That's just the quality of it.

Before I forget, guys, Justice is absolutely cooking on this episode. He's cooking, bro. And And the data shows that the more I ask you guys to like, comment, and subscribe on this video, the more you guys actually do it. I I didn't make the rules. It's just what the data shows. And so here I am asking for your humble like, comment, and subscribe. We really appreciate you guys being here. Let's Let's get back to Justice on the One More Time podcast. Let's

Let's get it. Um, Um, okay. So I think, you know, I'd love to get your perspective on how creative processes from different artists can, can be different. Right. So So I'd love for you to maybe break down, let's just take like Black, Summer Walker, and Belly maybe. Right. Can you walk us through like how each of them creates and then what that means for you, right. right. In an A &R role. And I guess even in an EP role, right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure. Have you EP'd all three or? Um, yeah. It just depends on the project. Sure. Okay. Sure. So So then maybe, yeah, if you can kind of break down, I think that would be helpful for people to understand like the different ways to create, right. If If they're just thinking, oh, I don't, I do this differently than them. And why do I do it this

way? Because you're pretty hands -on with the music, right? Yeah, Yeah, I am. Weirdly enough, um,

um, those three specifically, weirdly enough, they have the same creative, creative style. Okay. Well, this backfired, but let's hear. Weirdly enough. Let's hear how they create it. is the best writing that they do is to themselves in terms of like their output, right? There's different artists. There's artists that like, they like the environment and all those different things. And I feel like that, that gives them the confidence or gives them the thoughts to say. And And there's certain artists where like their thoughts just don't come out unless they're by themselves. But But if you look at the content that they make, I understand there's more vulnerable than not. Right. Right. So So I understand because it's vulnerable, there is a sense of like seclusion that you might want to write that. I I think that's to me, it's the hardest way, but also the most challenging way and also could be the easiest way. Just Just depends. So So we can just pick one artist. Pick one.

Sure. Which

Which one do you want to pick?

Who has the most recent project? Black? Black?

Summer maybe. No, no, no, no, no.

Black has the most recent project. Yeah,

Yeah, yeah. So Black, for example, like he writes, he writes with himself. And before we start working on a project and after we start working a project, I go into a space of, I pull up movies, I pull up books, anything of any source of inspiration that could be up to this artist. Once we talk about what do we want to talk about? What What is it? You know what I'm saying? What What are we trying to communicate? What What is the point? You You know, sometimes artists don't have that. Sometimes they don't know what they want to communicate. And that becomes that stagnation period.

I was about to say, they can't work if they don't know, right? Right.

Right. It's

It's not going to connect, I think. Yeah. So anyways. Sorry.

No, no. No,

No, that's a real point.

So in that perspective, it's just like, I think my job then at that point is to just keep inspiring. It's just like, just be like a well of inspiration. Like, yo, this is what I saw. saw. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, Like, damn, this is this artist that like, we just fucking nerded out in Sweden. Like, you know what I'm saying? saw. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, damn, this is this artist that like, we just fucking nerded out in Sweden. Like, you know what I'm saying? Let's follow Sweden. Let's go, let's go check out a show. You know what I'm saying? Like, let's like put ourselves in a space to get lucky, to find inspiration, a sound, a thought process, whatever it is. You know what I'm saying? Like, that is for me, that's my pre, that's my pre -stage. Right. And And we start making notes and we start making playlists and all these different things. And like, you know, starting the conversation, right, before the music actually gets made. And And then as the music is getting made, things will change and things will form and things will shape shift. And And now it's just like, just putting things on paper. Like, Like, okay, cool. Like, let's talk about concepts. You know what I'm saying? Like, yo, this happened to me. Yo, like, can you believe my girl told me this? Like, this is insane. Like,

Like, this is like, oh man, yo, this happened to me. me. Then we have a real conversation.

It kind of gets easier. It

It gets easier.

When you figure it out. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It

It gets easier. So So you start to conceptualize things. And And now you start to really find that there's a thread and there's a through line here. And in that through line, you can then find a theme for your project. And And also what you would tend to find is that that through line tends to be on the zeitgeist of what's happening in the world. Anyways, that's the conversation that people are having. Because Because it seems to be like we're all having similar experiences, just in different isolated, you know, points of our life. And once we figured that out, then now it's just like the resources. Who are the right producers to help soundtrack that? And And that's when like, it goes into like, okay, cool. Let's reach out and let's do things and let's do sessions and like all those different things. But, But, you know, it starts with what I said. And then it goes into like when he starts writing and like, now you have enough sound beds. Not Not just go write. Just go write. You You know, let's talk about all the things you've done. I'll leave you for like a month or so.

Yo, what you got? Just go write. You know, let's talk about all the things you've done. I'll leave you for like a month or so. Yo, what you got? Man, that was a cool idea. Okay, let's do that. Oh, that could be better. That's not good at all. You know what I'm saying?

saying? Well, let's talk about those points of feedback. Yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like we literally talked about this, you know, in a past episode about there's a lot of yes men out there. So So how do you, you know, thread the needle of like challenging the artist and giving honest, transparent, you know, blunt feedback. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas, Whereas, you know, not stifling their creativity, not putting them down, not criticizing. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. What's

What's that balance like, man? That sounds sounds hard. I mean, I've managed a couple artists and like, you know, I wasn't great at that. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll

I'll be honest. I

I engineer, you know, and produce. In the engineering, I will say like being an engineer and producer, like sometimes I'm just recording and I record whatever they tell me to record. But But if I have production hands on it too, then it's up to me to be like, maybe try that one again. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And that is a, that's a similar line. I have to try and tread. So

So does anything come to mind as far as like when you had to, you know, kind of. Yeah, I mean, 1,000%. I

I mean, I think that like, first of all, like, you know, an artist's ego is fragile, right? Fuck it. All our egos are fragile.

Yes. You know what I'm saying? Let's just be honest about it.

I think that the best thing to do is before you start criticizing or before you start giving feedback, establish trust. And trust isn't something that happens in a day. That's within time. Earned.

Earned. Yeah. Yeah. And

And for me, I find, I find to be that like, I always start off by asking, what is the goal for this project? Because Because sometimes they're just different goals.

What are some example goals? A

A goal could be, I'm really just doing this as therapy for myself. I just want this. I just want this out. This is on my heart. You know what I'm saying? Some goals is I want this to be the number one record in the world. Those

Those are very different goals.

Very different approaches. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Different feedback is warranted. Different

producers and writers are needed for each of those goals. Or not. Just

Just the intention is different.

Okay. Right? The

The intention is different. Yeah. It's like, at the end of the day, nobody can ever call anything anymore. Right? Like, the internet is just going to do what the internet is going to do. I I think we just want to give ourselves the best chance based on what we seem to know, based on all the thousands and millions of songs we've listened to across our lifetime. But But you just never know. Something super stupid can just work.

Yeah.

Right? It happens every day. Right?

Right? But then you also have to, like, deconstruct. Why Why do people like that? What about that, you know, makes that a thing?

Yeah.

And it's always an answer. And it's always a through line. You just just have to be paying attention.

Why is you know Miles you know Miles? Yeah.

Yeah. I don't even know what that is, but yeah. You don't know you know Miles?

Stop, bro.

You have home. No. Relax. You have homework. Okay. Look into you know Miles.

Okay.

of the most legendary artists of our time. That's

That's insane to say, bro. No, No, because people are laughing off set because it's insane

to say. Based on what you just said, you're going to love him.

Okay. Seriously.

Like, diagnosing why someone - Is this a new artist or an old artist? Newer. He's been out maybe a few years, but, like, I mean, he's Northwest's favorite artist,

for

example. Fire. It's different, bro. Y Y'all know. Don't shake your head.

Exactly. No. Okay. There's people off

Case study for why people like things. Okay. Okay. You're You're going to love him. him. Okay. love him. Okay. Great. I'm not saying you're going to add him to every one of your playlists. No, no, no. I mean, mean, listen, I want to know. You You know Miles. Yeah, I want to know. Goat. So,

yeah. I mean, I think once we establish what the goals are, and there's a thing that I do multiple times along the process. Yeah. It's always checking in to reestablish. Is this the same goal as when we started?

Because things change.

Yes. People's

People's feelings change.

Health check. You

You know what I'm saying? Audit. And And if those, if I get the same answer three times, that's when I then decide to criticize. Because

Because now I can use that against you. Right?

times.

Yeah. It's like, yo, you told me this. Hey. Hey. So,

So, at that point in time, now I just, what I tend to do is, if I have to criticize or I have to give you feedback that isn't so great, I I just compare yourself to your best self. I I say, hey, people like this song in your past. This This is your most listened to song. People People love this song. Do Do you think, honestly, this is better than that? Oh, Oh, no. It's a different song. I

I don't want to make shit like that anymore, Justice. That's my old shit,

That's okay. It's

It's supposed to be your old shit. Yeah.

Yeah.

But did you get better? Actually, was your concept stronger? It wasn't. Were your lyrics stronger here? It It wasn't. Is your melody stickier? It It wasn't. It's not good. So, So, it's just like, it's a cool song, but you're saying that you want the number one record? The The number one record means that the record needs to be better than your best record.

record. Yeah.

It's a lateral move at best. At At best.

At best. best. Being an operative

part of that. And realistically, it's just confusing people.

Yeah.

So, at that point in time, it's just like, the market has no emotion. The market just likes what it likes, and it doesn't like what it doesn't like. Absolutely.

it likes, and it doesn't like what it doesn't like. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, what's a song that you thought was going to go that absolutely flopped? And then on the flip side, what's one that you thought was not going to be a big record that ended up being a smash? Any come to mind? Where your ear, because again, we know your ear is incredible, but like, where were you just dead wrong? No, No, no, no. Listen, I miss a lot. Yeah.

And we've learned the lessons are in the failures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

I miss a lot. A record that I missed was on Summer's second album was a record called X for a Reason.

Okay. Okay. It was the first song.

song. Actually, Sean Garrett did that song. Oh,

Oh, wow. Shout

Shout out Sean. We'll put a link to his episode right up here. Go Go check it out. Thanks,

Thanks, Justice. Ellie Oop. Yeah, that record failed for a bunch of different reasons. Okay.

Okay. I

I think the song's great. From

From a song perspective, I think it's great. Sean wrote the hell out of it. Yeah.

Yeah. Just

Just wasn't the song for that artist.

Why not?

Real quick, in case you missed last week's episode, we're giving away three studio cable kits for you to totally recable your home studio. Henry, Henry, how much better does it get? It It does not get much better than that, Ben. This This is the high quality stuff. Each package worth about $300 each. And all you got to do to enter is comment the word recable on this YouTube video. Plus, give us a sentence or two of who you are and what you do. do. We like to get to know you guys. Why Why do you want these cables? Yeah. Prove yourself. So So does this have anything to do with the fact that there's a giant spool of raw cables on our table? I'm surprised you even knew that that's what that was, to be honest. But But yes, it absolutely does. This This is 500 feet. Jesus. Of raw microphone cable. This This is what people that are opening a brand new commercial studio will get. So So they can cut these to custom links. This This is the stuff that goes in the wall to the patch base. This This is the stuff behind the scenes. And this is all thanks to our friends at IO Audio Technologies. Obviously,

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10 seconds of your time to completely recable your studio. This is a no brainer. They'll They'll gladly take your business, but we've got three people that are going to get $300 worth of shit. We got you. Because what I had to learn, talk about learning your failures. What I had to learn is I think a song that makes a song a hit for an artist is the litmus test is the artist has to be able to perform it. And that's how you know if the song feels authentic to the artist.

It's the fake test right

there. Live performance.

Can

Can this artist pull this song off live?

Yes. Can Can they look like they believe this song? Yes, can they look like they believe this song? Okay. Have you ever seen

seen a photo of what Summer Walker looks like? Yes.

Yes.

Okay, cool. Have you ever seen Summer Walker talk?

Yeah.

Okay,

Okay, cool. If If you hear the tempo and how that song moves, that does not add up with who this human is.

Okay. It It doesn't matter how good the song is.

Her audience can't even digest it because

because the artist doesn't even look like they're going to enjoy the song. So is this one that you thought was going to go that flopped? Because Because the song's good. Okay. Okay. So So you realize all this after it flopped. After. You learn. learn. You learn. Okay. That's why the failures are the gold and

and some of y'all are afraid to fail. Huge Huge lesson in the failure.

Interesting. Okay.

Fail faster.

Yes. then because. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keep going.

I'm going to tell you. Me and Sean argued about this.

Okay.

There were two songs, three songs that we were talking about, which was going to come out first. first. It was X for a Reason, which was the one that ended up coming out first. It was X for a Reason, which was the one that ended up coming out first. It was No Love, which was the song with her and SZA. And it was constant bullshit. X for a Reason made a lot of sense to be the first record because we wanted to do something completely different for her second album. Give her some tempo. Put her into a different space that she's kind of never been into. Those were the reasonings. We're We're forcing the reason against what the Law of Gravity just said.

Yeah. You're

You're trying to defy science. science. Trying to defy it. The Summer Walker science. Trying to defy it, right? Yeah. Yeah. But

But I know when we were arguing about the songs back and forth, I know there was something about this record, constant bullshit, that when I heard, I'm just like, it just feels right. It It just feels good. good. It don't feel like a first single, but it just feels good. We all knew that No Love was going to work. So, they didn't want to come out the gate with a feature. It just didn't feel right. So, that was just kind of like the reason for not going with that. But we should have went with constant bullshit because to this day, when we do the shows, that's the record that her, and we never made a single, by the way. That That was the record. That's the record that her fans just are obsessed with.

The people underestimate, the fans give you the data. They hand it to you. They tell you what the songs, the ones are. They literally, they're in your comments at the shows. They're literally like, you're right there. Just ingest it. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I guess what I'm struggling with, though, is like, you know, how can an artist evolve, right, into new sounds and push new barriers, right? Okay. We figured out a cheat code. Okay, good.

I'm going to give you that banger. Let Let me lock in. Man, Man, this is the greatest banger of all time.

Okay, let's go. Don't tell nobody. Clip it. Pre -clip it. Listen.

Look at this camera, by the way. The reality of life, I Look at this camera, by the way. The reality of life, I had to realize this. The The reality of life is that we can't have it all. Damn

Damn it.

We want to, I want to evolve. I I want to change. I want to be some, motherfucker, you're you're not going to get it to happen. There There is one person or there's one thing that defies this law, and if you don't have that thing, your audience cannot digest it. Let Let me explain. If you go to McDonald's, I go and I walk into that McDonald's and I say, I want a small fry. I I want that small fry to taste exactly how I know it's going to taste. That's the reason why I went to fucking McDonald's. Yeah.

Best fries ever. I

I didn't go to McDonald's to have Chick -fil -A waffle fries. It's It's not, even though I like Chick -fil -A waffle fries.

You can go to McDonald's in Japan. Okay,

Okay, stop.

What? What? That was a good point.

It's a point. Okay. Okay. Shut

Shut up, man.

It stays consistent. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It stays consistent. I

I look at artists the same way. Usually, when people sign up for something, this is what they want. Don't change it. We'll use the Virgil approach. have 3% to change. Everything else needs to be consistent.

Shut up, Virgil. If

If I want the spicy Coke, I want the spicy Coke. Don't Don't give me cherry Coke right now. No.

No. Cool.

Cool. The The only people that get to defy this law, if if you look at it, then you think about it. The The only people that get to defy this law are artists that people have accepted them as producers. Okay?

producers. Okay?

It's the only people that get to defy the law of changing sound and changing identity. We We can go down the line. We can start at Kanye. We We can go to Pharrell. We can go to Travis. We can go to Tyler, the creator. We We go to J. Cole.

All producers.

All producers. We accept accept them as producers. Drake has given us the same thing since he came in the game. He's evolved a little bit here and there. But you know what a Drake album is going to sound like. It's the reason why he's the number one artist that's always existed. It It doesn't change.

So, you know, we've asked T -Ron Thomas this. I think we asked Sean Garrett this as well. Like, Like, what's the most important part of a song in your mind? The

The chorus.

Chorus.

Without question. How's something else going to stick? And

And the chorus, to me, the chorus, to me, doesn't have to be what it's obvious, right? Where Where you're waiting for the hook, the part of the, you know what I'm saying? Like, Like, it could simply just be the first 10 seconds of the record. And it's just the part that's just so catchy that keeps everybody going. I I think we've forgotten because the median keeps changing that the roles have stayed the same. The median is just changing. TikTok is simply just a commercial for your record. So, So, what part of the record can you sync that's hooky enough or catchy enough? It

It could be a verse part. part.

Easily.

It's whatever part. Hooks.

It could even be an ad -lib. Mm Mm -hmm. It was a point in time where I used to listen to the Migos mixtapes, not because of the hooks.

Oh, yeah. Because of the ad -libs. Just

Just for the ad -libs.

-libs. Oh, for sure.

Right? And And it's just like, that's the point.

I think that, like, it's just like understanding if you put just enough of the catchy things in there that get people to keep coming back. That's the most important part. That That makes it the hook to me. It doesn't have to be your traditional, you know, eight -bar choruses.

Yeah.

Interesting. But, like, within the chorus, is it the lyrics of the chorus, the melody? You

You never know.

Never know. No.

could literally be how I say I love you. It It just could be the inflection that just makes it catchy.

Okay.

You know what I'm saying? It could be, I mean, how many times you walk around and just, like, remember the guy Ice JJ Fish? Yeah. Where you just, like, people just, like, sing just like him. Like, Like, that in itself was catchy. Just, like, how he was singing was catchy.

You know what I'm saying? By the way, he's going to love You Know Miles.

Dude, stop talking about You Know Miles. He's

He's brought up Lil B and Ice JJ Fish on his own accord. And And he doesn't know You Know Miles.

Okay. For the record, if LVRN signs You Know Miles after this. I want 2%. Or I'll. Well, I don't, I have no idea. Just tell him yes. mean, if you say. Yeah, dude.

I mean, the fact that you know. I can link you. The fact that you know that Northwest likes him lets you know that he's probably signed. Because. Potentially. Yeah. Not every A &R. Yeah. YouTube viral as fuck. Like, the fact that you brought up Lil B, Ice JJ, like, yeah, you should. He should be on your radar, at least. I'm the attention. I

am actually kind of shocked that Justice isn't tapped into You Know Miles. Shocked. Just from, like, a cool. Probably if I see him. But, like, not on a first.

I don't actually do remember. It's more if you hear him. It's the sound, more so. Yeah, probably.

So, not on a first name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny.

He don't know Miles. No, No, you don't know Miles. You You know No Miles. Okay.

Okay. Wow. I'm sorry.

right. Move on.

Edit that out, Charlie. Keep Keep it. So, what are some, like, studio no -nos, right?

Everybody has different rules.

Yeah. Everybody has different rules. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Oh, like, every artist? Yeah. Does Justice have rules? For me? do you bend to the artist rules? Yeah, I bend to the artist. Unless it's my session. Unless I'm trying to create something with, like, some producers. Sure.

I have my rules. But, like, for me, it's just, like, no excessive people. Yeah. Like, people that just don't add to the room. You You know what I'm saying?

saying? Like, what? Like,

Like, I want to know that you're here for a purpose. Whether it's just your energy. Just something, right? You know, just people just... You studio is just, like, a place to just, like, crash. And that's, like, not good. Personally, I like a studio with a vibe, with good energy. So, So, usually, like, a good smell, I think, is important. You know what I'm saying? Good Good lighting is important. I think lighting, to me, is one of the most important things. Every album is different. You know what I'm saying? Like, Like, I remember there was a time where I was working on a project where it was just, like, all right, cool. Like, we're going to dress a certain way every time we come to studio.

You know what I'm saying? I was going to ask, what are some of the most unique sessions you've been a part of over the years? Anything Anything that sticks out? That's a cool one. Yeah. So, how are you dressing? dressing? What was the uniform? Yeah, Yeah, what was the outfit? Was it the free black album?

Yeah, we're just wearing black. All black. Yeah, let's just, like, dial in.

Yeah. Yeah,

Yeah, let's dial in.

Yeah. Let's

Let's just be dark. That's

That's cool. cool. That's cool. Are there any others that kind of stick out?

Yeah, there was a point in time to where, like, when we were working on Summer's last album, it was just like, there was flowers everywhere. Mm Yeah. cool. It's the mood, man.

It's the environment.

so that's - Underrated. Yeah, Yeah, it's important, right? Because, I mean, something I've heard you say that really has just been sticking with me throughout, like, I'm trying not to just think about what you said, but it's like that idea about setting yourself up for inspiration.

yeah, yeah,

It's like the name of this game, I feel like.

it's the only thing we're here for.

name of this game, I feel like. Yeah, it's the only thing we're here for. It's what they say about luck.

It's like, you can sit around and wait to be lucky, or you can change the things that you can control to set yourself up to be in a position to accept luck or accept inspiration. Yeah, yeah, Sure, you can't directly force it, but you can, like, sway the odds in your favor, I I think. One example, like, for me, like, I was working on this EP with an artist I work with, Germ. He signed to G59, Suicide Boys label. And we did an EP that it was kind of named after an old skate video. You remember the skate video kind of era? And every time he walked in, we had a vibe. It was like, all my lights were red, like blood red. And I just had skate videos, right? On On the big TV, just looping.

1,000%. And

And it was, we just locked into that vibe. Yeah. Anytime we were working on the project, I really think it had a big impact. Because every decision, every creative decision you make. 1,000%. Whether Whether you think about it or not, right? It's subconsciously influenced by your environment. So if you set up your environment, it just has these, like, cascading effects. I

I don't even believe in writer's block.

It's kind of fake.

Okay, speak on it. It's a full thing. I

I mean, every time I hear a writer, it's like, what, do you just stop living?

I don't know. You You know what I'm saying? It's just like, writer's block to me, again,

again, I believe it happens when you become stagnant in your perspective. You're You're stagnant because, one, you're probably around no good conversations. Or, two, you're just not living, right? And And I think that, like, people assume living to, like, oh, let me go spend a bunch of money to, like, go do some wild experience or whatever it is. Like, it doesn't have to be all that. It It can literally simply be, yo, I'm going to create a story. And yo, I'm going to create a story. And I don't know where the story is going to happen or where it's going to start. But one thing is going to lead to another. I'm just going to be free, right? And And I think that's the beautiful thing about being an artist is is just like, all right, cool. Shit, every day at 5 p.m., I'm just going to go to the MARTA station. I'm I'm just going to have a random conversation with whatever homeless person there is there. We're just going to have a conversation. And we might go on an adventure. Sure. I'm giving myself an opportunity.

Nothing might come from it. But I'm giving myself an opportunity to get lucky for the homeless person to say, man, you know what? I I remember when I was your age and I had a relationship to die. And this is where all things went wrong. And they might just say something that might just resonate with you. It's

It's almost like writer's block is just you closing yourself off to receiving.

Yeah. Well,

Well, it's just interesting, man. Again, Again, shout out Sean Garrett making his way into this episode a lot. But it's like he talked about how hit songs are all based on just, again, conversation. Because, again, the listeners are people. Yep.

Yep. And

And conversations involve people talking about life experiences. And And that's what all songs that are timeless are about. just life.

Yes. If you never heard Bob Dylan saying he had writer's block. Yeah. Because Because he was talking about people's life and what was going on in the world. I I believe. Shoot me for saying it. believe that motherfuckers are lazy. And they don't want to do the part where it's the artist part.

They don't want to go to the martyr station and talk to a homeless person at 5 p.m. every day.

Yeah. To

maybe write a song that changes their life.

They don't want to do the part.

They're just going to doom scroll and eat Taco Bell.

have writer's block.

life. They don't want to do the part. They're just going to doom scroll and eat Taco Bell. I have writer's block. Yeah.

Well, what the fuck? Are you not living? Yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

And also, don't take the cheap way out where it's like, all right, cool. I got to do a drug. It's just like, okay, that's also like the cheap way.

It's just like. Might work temporarily. Yes.

Yes. But But also like, in what environment are you doing this fucking drug? In In your living room? All All right. Good night. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, Oh, no. Man.

Man.

So like, how many, what's like the most amount of versions of a song that you've ever, you know, like V what? 40? Like Like what? You know, I just, cause I think people don't know when a song is. I

love this question.

question. Yeah. Just like people don't know when a song is done. I feel like they're on V40 and I'm like, bro, V1 was better than all these. Like, what are we doing? You

You need merch.

You gotta have merch.

You know, you gotta have it. You You don't have merch. What

What are you doing? But But now I got to find a designer to design me the thing. Minimum orders. Minimum orders. Boxes in your closet.

Oh my God. My wife wife is pissed. She's She's pissed. And did I order the right sizes? I I don't know. Why Why did I make so many 2XL? There's There's not enough smalls. We We have a solution for you today from our friends, DistroKid, the sponsor of today's episode. It's called DistroKid Direct and it's 70 bucks a year, roughly six bucks a month on top of your DistroKid account. This This is their print on demand service. So you're not having to have all those boxes pissing your wife off. And And you keep a hundred percent of your sales and you name your own price. So So what they're going to do is they're going to take your album art and they're going to have you be able to print that on demand on things like t -shirts, mugs, tote bags. If

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I actually do think I have a bad habit of doing that.

You are the culprit here. Thank

Thank you for it. Because me too.

Thank

that. I have a bad habit of doing that. Because in my brain, I'm such a perfectionist. But

But

also, I do believe that the special thing about me is that I do have an organic nature. And And sometimes my ideal or my wanting to be great so bad might force me to overthink and redo so many different versions and try to get it the most professional way possible. I I remember, I'm going to tell you a story. I remember remember when I first signed Summer and ironically, the song that she wrote, that was like one of the songs that got me. That was the reason why I wanted to sign it was a song called Session 32. And it was a voice memo. And of course, as an A &R, you hear the song. I love love this song. Can Can she re -record it? And she re -recorded it. And I was just like, no, it just doesn't feel the same.

It just doesn't feel the same.

And you can't necessarily say what it is. Can't.

Can't. It just doesn't feel the same. Oh, Oh, like, maybe let's add a, you know what I'm saying, a a keys here. It's so bare. Like, I think we might need more. We did all those things that just didn't feel the same. And And we just put out the voice memo as is.

Wow.

People loved it. I

I mean, this song probably sold two million copies. Oh, shit. People sold two million copies. Oh, shit. People loved it. Say so. Oh, man. So actionable.

Jayo just told us the same thing, kind of.

Facts. True. So we're all about actionable, practical. We've We've been living in, like, somewhat, you know, theoretical land. But, like, maybe just, like, save every version of every song that you ever do in case you need to go back. I don't know what doll you use. But, like, yeah, you never know. Like, Like, it could be version seven you find is the one that you just can't replicate that feeling of it. So just back your shit up.

It's tough. It's tough, though. It's It's really tough. Sometimes you're also like, well, am I just being lazy by just, like, not, you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Yeah.

Or, like, am I giving him, like, my best approach? And, like, it's tough. It really is. I'm I'm still figuring that out.

Yeah. Because I also, because, yeah, I don't know if it's also lazy or whatever. But there's a lot of artists that, you know, just want to release their demos all the time because they think that, like, every single time they can't ever, like, recreate the vibe. It goes both ways. they go to the extreme of, like, well, then I'm just going to put out every fucking demo first. And, like, and then they even go with, like, well, the first take is the only good take because that was the most raw and, like, emotional and whatever. Every other, like, re -recorded, you know, take. out. Yeah, dude. Like, because I've been in enough. I stopped having, I, like, had to stop going to sessions because it just fucking irked me. I couldn't be in a studio and, like, again, like, bite my tongue. So, yeah.

So, I'm glad that you said that because that is the dance. And I think that what I'm realizing is that as long as we have a commitment to effort, I'm cool. So, So, if we try and it just doesn't feel better, then let's just be honest about it.

That's great. We We tried.

Yeah.

Yes.

tried. Yeah. Yes. We ran through the check. Yeah. Yes. We ran through the check. Yeah, Pro Tools is free. Like, it's - Yeah. Is it? Well. Well. Well. If you're recording anyways, it's free. Okay.

Yeah. But, like, the different takes aren't, you know? Exactly. You can delete the takes if we don't like them better than the demo. It's true. But let's maybe try. Yeah. We can try some drums and keys here. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And, yeah. Because

Because you guys saved your virgins and you can revert back. That's right. You know what I'm saying? That's

That's right.

Yeah.

Damn, man. Well, Henry, you know, we've been on the final segment of the podcast. Justice. Wow. What

What a conversation, man.

was, like, one of those ones where it was, like, it was deep, bro. Yeah.

Yeah. Felt

Felt like I was, like, I was, like, I don't know if it's because he talks all, like, quiet and

don't always go, like - Am I a quiet talker?

I don't don't know. You're just, like, an intentional talker. Yeah. I was just, like, hanging on every word.

Me, too. We said it at the same time. time. We didn't, like, I wish you to make that up.

of our past guests. I'm I'm listening to you, too. But for some reason with justice. I was locked in. I I forgot to remind you guys to like, comment, and subscribe to the channel.

Turn the bell notifications on, please. Like, we don't make very much money from YouTube. We have criminally low number of subscribers, if you ask me. And our data says that 75% of you are not subscribed. But 100% of you just got value from justice from LVRN. So just click the button. Whoever,

Whoever, we're going to do something different. Whoever Whoever gets the top comment and is aspiring artists, we will do a session with them and just give them, like, some good game.

Did y'all just hear that?

was fucking fired. Hello?

Are you happy you made it this far in the video?

my God.

if you're listening? Jesus.

Holy shit. Thank

Thank you for that. That's huge. No, for sure.

No, that's. He'll fly you to Atlanta if you're not here, too. He'll put you up in a five -star hotel. In the G -Wagon. Let's do it. Well, I don't know about picking him up. Okay,

Okay, that's where we drop the line.

Henry will pick you up. Henry will pick you up.

I'll send an Uber. Anyway.

You lazy motherfucker,

I didn't even leave the house. We

We know.

But you know. Now they know. Let's start the Rapid Fire Rampage anyway. anyway. Justice, this is the best part of the podcast.

Sure.

Why are you laughing? It's split into three sections. I'll explain them as we go. The first part is just some short answer questions. We're just going to breeze right through. It's It's going to be no problem. Starting Starting with. What's up? How's it going?

I'm all right.

right. Hanging in. Justice, your handle is at Justice Wears Cool Pants. Mm What is your current favorite pair? And defend it hard. I want to really get the, you know, I want to believe you.

My current favorite pair is is actually a pair that my boy KP gave me.

Shout out KP in the building. He

He has a clothesline called Plus One. Ooh.

Ooh.

Yeah, yeah,

It's these like oversized baggy jeans. Like they just go with everything. Yeah. If

If I knew the guy that made my favorite clothing, I would take him everywhere with me. know. Yeah.

I'm starting, it's starting to add up. It's clicking. Why Why someone like Justice wears cool pants. That's a good friend. That's a designer.

Justice, as a fellow Georgia State Panther. Oh, Oh, wow. Let's

Let's go.

Didn't quite finish. Did you finish? No. No. No. Okay, Okay, well. You have that in common too.

Best and worst things about Georgia State? At

At the time that I was going, the courtyard, definitely the best thing ever. Loved

Loved it. Just a melting, just the honeys?

No, just like the energy.

But yes, that too.

I didn't know. That's where my brain got hurt. A thousand percent. Okay, got hurt. A thousand percent. Okay, cool.

Just the energy, the music. Yes. The ability to like connect with everybody that like you might not naturally connect with. And And then you go right to class right after that. That's so so cool.

Yes. Yes. Courtyard is

is goaded.

It's just the middle of the whole campus. It's when you're not in class, you go hang out. Yeah, just go hang out there. Okay.

Okay. Awesome. Get your best outfits off like the whole Zah. That's where the pants started. Yeah. Yeah.

Sticking with state for a second. You studied finance. Uh

Uh -huh.

Is there anything from your finance studies that you still use today at the label? No.

No. I had to relearn it. Mm. Because I didn't pay attention in school.

Quick. This is supposed to be rapid, but I want you to like quickly unpack that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Basically, I, you know, accounting and all these different courses that they give you, like, bro, this doesn't make any sense. How is it relevant to me? And And then you actually get into it and you actually had to learn what a P &L is and how to balance books and all these different things. And And then I was like, oh, actually that might've made sense. But But then we got AI. So like now I'm like slowly like, I don't have to do this anymore.

Yeah. Yeah. But by the way, I saw this coming. I always saw this coming. I

I knew, I knew I never had to actually do the work.

Oh, okay. You

You just kind of need to, you need to understand how the work works.

Do you? That's what's important.

Not even?

I don't even think. I

always knew. When

When I was in middle school, I used to argue with my teachers because I had bad handwriting. I I was like, why do I need to write? We're We're going to type in the future.

Yeah. Well, you were way ahead on that one. And

And they were like, nah.

No, you need cursive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. have to learn cursive. Dude, Dude, cursive's important.

Listen, listen, listen. These kids don't even know that.

I don't know even how to write in cursive anymore. Yeah, yeah,

You don't need to learn how to do taxes right now. Trigonometry. Okay? Okay? Yeah. Very important. Super important. Can you imagine the stupidity? I can't, dude. I can't, bro. Dude, let's not get into schooling because I could go into that forever. Let's just move on to - You brought up schooling. Yeah, Yeah, but it was cool when I did it. Got off the rails. Anyway, Justice, I I believe you said that executives use data to hide from fear. What is that fear?

The fear of being wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think people just not willing to die with what they're passionate about.

Yeah.

So if the data is already supporting something with statistics - Sort of a comfort blanket. How are you wrong? Yeah. Yeah.

As versus like, you're not passionate about, I don't care if I'm wrong. I I would be wrong today. I'm I'm telling you in 10 months or two years, whenever whenever it happens. It might not even happen while I still have the job, but motherfucker, I was passionate about it and I was right. Mm.

Can they fire you from your own company that No. I was like, who are we talking about firing you if I still have the job? I was like, I have to kick your ass out.

And speaking of AI, like AI, like it really, literally everything is about to be done for us besides the taste, which comes back to the very beginning of this conversation, which is like, why isn't A &R still important? The through line, I think, of what A &Rs have been over time is their taste. Yeah.

Yeah.

That is something AI will never replicate.

Yeah. For sure. What

What do you recognize as good or different?

Justice, what is your most unnecessary skill? I don't, I'm not really great at much. Oh. Oh. Why is that a through line on people? See, y'all don't really need to, or y'all need to be good. Maybe

Maybe that's why people are brilliant because they're so not great at other stuff. They're so good at the thing that they do.

I'm not really great at much.

There's got to be one thing, like you're really good at jumping rope. You know what what I mean? Something. Something.

No, I'm actually not.

Like, I used to play tennis. Well, I still play tennis. Yeah, actually, I saw you on the court. I'm good at it, but I'm not great at it. Have

Have you tried the current day version, version, pickleball? Yeah,

Yeah, I'm good at it. Not great at it. I'm I'm just good at a lot of shit, but like, not great. Like, great.

It's like.

You're like really good at Wordle or something? I'm great at making people believe in my vision, but that matters.

Yes, that is necessary for your role specifically.

That was worth mentioning, I think. Anyway, last one with a short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Oh,

Oh, my favorite curse word today? Now. Now. Oh, man. I'm going to give you the timeless bitch.

Ooh, bitch is a good one.

Bitch is good.

We don't care. We've only had a handful of bitches.

We've We've only had a handful of bitches.

The next part is the this or that. I'm I'm going to give you two choices. You just have to pick whichever one sticks out to you. Starting with drums or melodies?

Melody.

Hooks or verses?

Verses.

Remember earlier, it's interesting.

Well, because remember, he was like, chorus isn't really hook.

doesn't mean chorus. no, no, no, no, no, no.

Those are two different questions. You're You're asking me my personal. Oh, I'm a different listener.

Oh, true. He's answering as a listener.

Yeah. Which these are open for interpretation.

And we usually don't require in like. We don't want you to interpret it. Yeah.

We want you to just go. We

We just interpreted for it. We did it wrong.

Interesting. No, but it's fun to digest.

That's good.

Yeah.

I'm glad we did it.

Yeah. No, me too.

It's a good risk.

Good risk. Talent or discipline?

Discipline. A

A genius who's always late or a seven out of 10 who's always on time?

Seven out of 10 without question. I knew

question. I knew it.

Wow.

Win a Grammy or own your masters? Win Win a Grammy? He

He seemed confused.

Because I'm trying to figure out whose perspective. Yours.

Yours. Like the artist or me as an executive? It's a great question. You flipped it on its head before. So, I mean, we're not going to tell you. Yes. Like the artist or me as an executive? It's a great question. You flipped it on its head before. So, I mean, we're not going to tell you. Yes. I was assuming from my artist

No further context is given. Okay,

Okay, so if you win a Grammy, you can then own your masters? You

You get leverage. Yeah.

That's what I'm thinking. Sure.

Sure. That's great. I

I like that thought process, Justin.

I think I know the answer to this next one, and I'm going to want you to defend it. But let me ask first. Culture or revenue? Today?

Now. Revenue. Without question. I'm way off. You You don't even fucking know Justin, bro. I'm You don't know him at all, bro.

Wow. Yeah, I was cool in my 20s. Now I want money. Yeah. Yeah. He's always grown up.

He did the research from back in your Georgia State days.

But this reveals that now. We just showed his growth. So the question's doing its job. So I need you to just back off. Fine. Shit.

Jesus Jesus Christ. Whoa. Crawled up your butt and died.

TikTok or YouTube?

YouTube.

Books or podcasts?

Podcast.

Thank you. you. Yeah, one right. Nice. Yeah.

Yeah. A great song performed okay or an okay song performed great? Okay Okay song performed great. Yes. I

I knew it. I knew that one.

I agree. Just

Just from the episode though.

True. Live's

Live's important,

The clues were there.

Live is important.

And finally, become a full -time trap rapper or leave the music industry forever. Become

Become a full -time trap rapper or leave the music industry forever. I think I'll leave the music industry forever.

You're gone.

Damn. I was hoping for a little justice mixtape.

At least like a debut single. Let's Let's get a taste. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe featured on Belly Gang?

A trap rapper?

That's what you'd have to be. Should

Should I have just left it at rapper and then you maybe might have been more open? Yeah. You're in a trap? For sure. Huh?

Just you're not a trap?

Well, he isn't trapped. It's not real. It's not me. me. It's It's not authentic.

It's not me. It's

Exactly. It's

Just you're not a trap? Well, he isn't trapped. It's not real. It's not me. It's not authentic. It's not me. It's not real. Yeah. Exactly. It's all full circle, man.

And that's what I was testing him and he passed. He

did.

Last section is the word association. I'm I'm going to say one word. I just need you to give me the first word that you think of off the top of your head. You're not judged on your answers. You're You're only judged on speed. Starting with. Music. Justice.

Justice. Hook.

Hook. Song.

Song. Pants.

Pants.

Justice. There

There might be a few of these. Okay.

Okay. I hate when you do this.

Well, it's not my fault. Just sign it up. Algorithm. Atlanta.

Atlanta. Serial.

Serial.

Cheerios. AI.

AI. Me.

Me. Label.

Label.

LVRN. Viral.

Viral. Me.

Me.

Flop.

Me. Me. Me. Sorry. Atlanta.

Oh, fuck. Usher. A

A &R. Barry

Barry Gordy. Studio.

Studio.

LVRN. Lawyer.

Lawyer. I

I don't know.

Shout out to all you entertainment attorneys out there.

Never heard of them. He

loves you. Thanks for helping him sign all these artists and shit.

We haven't thrown out a lot of episode plugs. Let's just tell the Ryan Schmidt episode up in the corner here. Go check out that episode. episode. Great entertainment lawyer.

There we go.

And shout out Rosenberg. Only Only a few more here. Ego. Ego.

Kanye.

Ghana.

Black Stars.

Love.

Renaissance. Let's go. What a goddamn interview. Oh my gosh. Interview.

What a conversation, man.

That didn't even feel like the interview, bro. That was like. Over delivered. Just humans. It goes back to like how these songs are made, bro. These These conversations, delivered. Just humans. It goes back to like how these songs are made, bro. These conversations, man. If this interview was a song. It might get turned into one. It might get turned into one, bro. Seriously.

Seriously. Yes. Yes. So

So please like, comment, and subscribe to the channel. We're here each and every week. week. Until next time, what are we doing?

Getting out of here. Getting

Getting out of here. Peace, Peace, y'all. Appreciate

Appreciate y'all.