How Artists Turn a Small Fanbase into a Full-Time Living ft. Tim Weber (Grouped)

Henry, we have someone who I can only refer to as like the artist whisperer. This

This guy just knows everything there is to know about artists and their problems and he goes out and f****** solves them. Either he points them in the right direction or he builds his own f****** company to do it. We got Tim Weber on the podcast, Henry. Let's f****** go. The The artist whisperer. Yeah. Yeah. Did you like that? Is Is that okay? Is that okay to call you that?

need you both as my hype man and I'm gonna start using that as my little bio instead of the middleman in the music industry. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

that was great. Thank

Thank you, man. I appreciate it. Yeah. I mean, cause honestly, you know, we spoke last week and I was just like hearing your story, obviously, you know, from the good music all day, blog era days to then like the various companies that you've started, the ways that you've helped just tons and tons of artists. And And the fact that like you just care, man, like you can just tell when you talk to some people in this s***, who is in it for the money, the accolades, whatever. And like, you've made money, you've gotten accolades, right? But But like in speaking with you, and I think this is gonna, you know, to be very clear during this episode to all of our artists out there, like this guy f****** cares, Henry. Like Like he genuinely wants you guys to win and he's going to do everything he can to, to point you in the right direction and to give you the tools and the knowledge, like to actually help you succeed. And And he's been doing it a long time. So So really appreciate you coming on the podcast, man. Man.

Man. I, I appreciate, uh, first and foremost, what you guys do. Like Like I think educating artists is like for 17 years that I've been in the industry, one of the biggest gaps. People People just take advantage of them instead of educate them. Um, Um, and a lot of times artists think they have a problem and that's not actually the problem, but nobody wants to tell them that they they just sell them the quick solution. Um, Um, or nobody tells artists about the pros and cons to any decision that they're making. And And like the whole point of being an artist to me is you chose arguably the craziest and hardest job in the world. Like you chose a job that is subjective. Nobody, there's no right or wrong, good or bad. And And yet there's numbers next to it that the public can see. Yeah. Yeah. We tell you not to have an ego and wear your heart on your sleeve, but then don't be affected when people say they don't like it and then go out and do it again and make sure that you're not thinking about them, but make sure the numbers are going up and and like none of that makes sense.

So like, it's so easy to just want to sit there and be like, how do I protect you? Like Like you're crazy. Let me let you be crazy. But But like, man, it just starts with, uh, the acknowledgement. That's That's why I say like, you don't do it unless it's in your blood and and it's really cool when it is because magic can be made. But, uh, whether you're the A -list Biebers of the world or you just starting out with a thousand monthlies or something like the problems kind of just continue to have the same cycles and artists don't really change that much. They, They, uh, they just, they're just insane for choosing the career path. They are better better be in their blood.

Shout out to you guys, man, for being crazy. Motherfucker. What a path you're on. I respect it for sure.

So, you know, something that we were talking about is, you know, like you said, you've been doing this 17 years and you said that like reach in terms of reaching your fans, like reaching the people is what a lot of people claim to have been the issue for so long. And they're like, Oh, social media and all these. platforms like groups and Patreon, whatever you can reach your fans. And you had a pretty contrarian, you know, viewpoint to that. And you were like, reaches not the real issue here, guys. So So what, what do you think is the actual problem in today's music climate in terms of like building and maintaining a fan base? Yeah,

Yeah, uh, man, great question. And And like, uh, the very basics of why I say that, at least from my years in this was, I mean, Ryan Leslie was ahead of his time with like super phone back in the day. And that was SMS marketing. You You can get your fans number and directly reach them. And And then it was like community became the big texting one. Then it's lay low. Like the the idea is you've always kind of been able to do it. It's It's just realistically artists don't understand how to use that data. And And most, uh, uh, this is goes back to the other businesses that I've started. I believe if you build a product that's good enough for everybody, it's not going to work for artists or the music industry. Cause they're just different. And And so a lot of what we talk about when it's like the data and those ones I just mentioned, they're called like CRM tools, which is basically like, how do you reach your customers? Um, Um, traditionally in other industries, they're really smart with how they use their data. And it's kind of the rule of four, which is like, you bring value three times before you ask for something. And

And an example of that would be like the first time you go to Best Buy and you buy something and you put in your like email or your phone number. The first thing you get normally is like an email that says, here's $10 for free to use at Best Buy. Then you redeem it. And then you get another email. That's like, well, now that you redeemed it, here's 50% off your next purchase. And And on your birthday, they may send you something, but they know if they get you to the fourth one and they can get you to spend for the fourth time, they got you for life. And And like, we call that a loss leader. Like Like I'm willing to lose a little bit of money and time and effort in the beginning because I want the long -term payoff. And And I don't think artists or the music industry is stupid. I I just think they rush to the monetization. So So they forget that idea because typically artists need money. Like that's the reason they

they don't have money to lose. I I was about to ask you, why do you think they do it? But thank

Where else are they supposed to get it? Exactly.

Exactly. And so like, because DSPs don't pay for, you know, like 90 days after, and because of all these other reasons, artists want that money, first of all. And And second of all, like we talked about with social media and everything, they're scrambling to get the data. So So when they get it, they think they have to monetize right away. So the first thing is like, now buy tour tickets, now buy merch. And that to me is just more of like a lack of people creating tools that make sure that artists don't mess up the data that they get. Because Because the hardest thing to do is to get a fan to leave social media and give you their number or email. And And the worst thing you can do is sell to that person right away. And now you're paying money every time you want to text or email that person. And that person is never going to open it or check out or do anything because they know they're being sold to. So So the common problem is like, you get your first thousand phone numbers, 800 people open it, man,

man, this is working. But But then you get to 10,000 phone numbers. And somehow my cost is 10x, but only 600 people are opening it. And And it's like, yeah, because people got tired of being sold to, you're you're not willing to bring the value. So that way that that little step right there builds the trust. And like, it builds the trust that hey, I value you for giving me your data. I I want you to know I'm going to deliver value. And then I'm going to occasionally offer ways for you to support. And instead, artists just go from I need your attention on social media. And then now that I have your attention, I need you to buy everything and do everything for me. So

So how sensitive do you think fans are to like being sold to so quickly, right? Because like, yeah, I might not open it. But or like, you know, if I open it the first time, and it's, you know, a sales pitch or whatever, immediately after getting my data, and then the second time to your point, open rates decline. Do Do you think that like me as a fan, that means that I've like, like counted you out? Like, fuck this guy. I'm all I've moved on. Like, Like, are they that sensitive? Right? Right? I just want to understand like the the ramifications of doing this, like how Like, you know, do we have like one shot at doing this correctly? And And if we fuck it up, they're gone in your mind?

In a lot of ways. Yes. I think some of that is due to just economics straight up. So So like, you know, out of hundreds of thousands of users for us, the last time we did a poll on them, it was like nearly 80% live paycheck to paycheck. So like, continuing to ask them to buy $50 pieces of merch, spend $9 a month, buy this VIP upgrade and $120 ticket, like, like, those are big decisions that don't seem like it. But But if people aren't ready, it's not payday, they don't have it. But their first inclination that you reached out after they gave you the data is that you're going to ask them for money. And it almost like makes them feel bad. So So like, there's an economic side of it right there. But But the other side is like, it's all about like micro moments. And And those micro moments that like, if you gave me your phone number or your email or whatever, I value that as an artist. So So I'm going to give you a reward for doing that instead of just you gave it to me. So now I need you to keep giving first,

first, you gave me your data. Now I need you to keep giving because the one mistake artists make is they believe their art is the only value that they bring. I I made this song. I made this song. So now you should do X, Y, Z versus I made this song. It got you interested enough that you wanted more, which is why you gave me your phone number, your email. So So let me give you more. And And then now that I gave you more, let me see if I can ask you for one more thing. And if I ask you for one more thing, can I over deliver in value again? And And if you keep doing that every time you ask for something, you over deliver in value, the the result of doing that over and over again is super fans. And like, I do believe like the current trends everybody talks about, it's direct to fan. everybody talks about, it's direct to fan. It is being able to know who your fans are, reach them directly. These These fan communities.

If that is the case, the missing gap right now to me is how do you take somebody from curiosity? They're They're curious enough to give you their data to the point that you can monetize them. And And that's all the micro moments. Every Every time you ask them for something, you better be bringing value. And And if you keep, you keep doing that over and over again, you end up with a career and not just a hot moment.

One second, Tim, we

we lost your, on our big screen here. You're still recording. People

People say I have a face for radio. So that works out. No, no, no, no, no, no. You're

You're no, no, no. We're We're still, we're still recording. It's just, we we have a, we have a really ghetto big monitor that we basically put you up here. You You can't see it obviously, but it's like behind this camera and that's where we see you all big. I I can see you over here small on our computer, but there we go. Did it just, I guess the TV just turned off. It's not really so stupid. It's like the worst, it's the worst monitor TV thing ever. We We were like, cause we bought a really cheap one. Cause we were like, Oh, all we're going to, all we need to do is display what's on a computer. Like Like how smart does it need to be? And apparently it just likes to turn off.

Anyways, I had a, I

I think it was, I think it was really just too smart. It It was like, man, they just need to listen to him. They

They don't need to see his face. Don't worry about it. Close your eyes. I was about to just close my eyes. I I was like, did you you have something then? Cause I, yeah, I had a question. Yeah. Okay,

good.

Um, let me get, get it back. I'll get it back. Okay. had a question. Yeah. Okay, good. Um, let me get, get it back. I'll get it back. Okay. Uh, so for artists specifically, when you're kind of describing, like taking people from essentially warm lead to hot lead, right. Is Is like the gap. Um, Um, it is very different. Like Like a music, an artist business is very different than a traditional business. So So what are some things specifically that an artist can do? Like, what are those little micro moments? What What is the value just just so we can get the gears turning? People People might not think like, Hey, link to an unreleased song is value. You know what I mean? So I just want to like unpack that. Yeah.

Yeah. So they could be anything like like with, uh, with my current company, we call them swaps, which is like you're swapping value basically. So So if an artist, like we just launched our partnership with feature FM, if an artist is asking for a pre -save, like on the fan side, that experience is terrible. And realistically, after I go through this bad experience, my reward is 10 days from now, it'll show up in my Spotify. Like Like that immediately isn't an equal value. So at the end of that experience, one on the artist side, it's better to get the forever pre -save and the follow. So So like that way you don't have to ask them again. That's That's why those forever saves exist. Um, Um, but number two is the reward. Even if you don't want to give them early access to the actual song, it could be that they get to hear 30 seconds of the original demo. It It could be that they get entered into a giveaway that you're going to pick one person and randomly do a cameo style video. You

You don't even have to get on zoom with them. them. It could be that they win a little merch bundle. Um, Um, it could be so many like different things and it's normally whatever is lying around or or a lot of times like, uh, a reel or something will go viral. And And then it's like that 30 seconds probably had a three minute version of the video that was unedited. So So the idea is like, you saw this, it got you interested to take this action because you want more. So here's the more for it. So So a lot of times it's the stuff that like artists and people in the music industry, we get jaded to because of two reasons. One, you kind of stop at times becoming fans of other artists. So So like the giveaways and the stuff that would be one don't seem like they would be cool. And two, you don't think anybody wants to hear the mumble version of the song that sounded terrible to you. And you're almost embarrassed about when to the fans, that's actually the coolest thing in the world. Um, Um, so the fun part is trying to figure out what those things are.

Um, but it could be the same thing with like, you know, RSVPs for a tour or something. It's It's like, if they're willing to say that they want to know when you're on tour, tell them that like, you know, you're going to pick one person every day for the next week. And And if they buy tickets and they've RSVP, they automatically get a VIP upgrade, or, or, you know, you're going to pick somebody to get free tickets. Like Like as long as there's some value and that's why giveaways are nice. You don't have to give it to everybody, but but a lot of times, especially with tickets, you have a guest list. Like it's no money out of your pocket. It's no time. You're not shipping anything. Um, Um, but the current model is set up RSVP for my tour. And then it's end of journey. And then in two weeks, I'm going to sell you something. And so like, you've lost the momentum, you've lost the connection. You didn't build the trust right off the bat. So So there's all different examples of the micro moments. And the beautiful thing is like, I just listed some, but every day I'm amazed by what people actually do with group because it's really infinite as to, and it's so different for artists and fans, what the fans actually think is valuable versus, um, what the artist does.

So, yeah, it's, it's interesting. Cause like, I love all this for sure. I I just feel like an equal problem that exists out there is the fact that artists are even scared to ask anything of their community. Like, do you see that? Because I think you're painting a problem of like, yo, y'all motherfuckers are asking way too quick. You You just got their data, like fall Yeah. But then there is a problem in my mind where it's like, uh, our artists friends are kind of like nervous to ask people to financially support them to, you know, help fund their career. They They could, they feel like it comes across as cringe and this, that, and the third.

Typical like creative isn't also naturally salesy, you know, or sales minded maybe is a better word. Yeah. Yeah. So, so do you, do you see that as a problem or is it more so what you've been describing where it's like, Oh, they don't seem to have a problem at all of asking. And they're actually acting way too fucking quick for way too much. Um,

Um, no, I think, I think all of that is extremely valuable. I I think, and it's part of the reason like with group to, when we started it, I, I, I went to Patreon and only fans and sub stack and I didn't want to build the thing I did, but I knew it needed to be white labeled and it needed a free tier because every artist at every stage doesn't want to make anything look like a cash grab. And when you're smaller, it makes it look like you're desperate and you're not big, which means you're probably not good. So So why would I give you my money? And And when you're bigger, it's why are you asking me for more money? I I know that you make millions of dollars. So So like, I think artists just naturally hate being salesmen. I I just don't think they realize that that's basically all they're doing. I mean, I call them like, I call them wacky wavy inflatable arm flailing tube men because because like they are panicking to get your attention. And then as soon as they do, the only thing they know how to do is sell. And like realistically, um, that's just a problem across the board. Now

Now I think a, a, a fundamental shift, especially if you bring value for free to people, especially the people that gave you their data, then all you're not really selling, you're offering ways to support you. And And like, if you can afford it and you want to, then you can give me X and I'll give you more, but but it's never ostracizing. Like you don't get it unless you do this. this. And a great example is like, um, I mean, there, there's countless, but like, you know, what even.biz does and what grouped and some of these others is like, if you want early access to my album and you want to pay for it, I want you to be able to hear it before anybody else, because you're willing to support that. But But also if you don't, God, God bless you. If you don't have that money, it's still going to be on streaming platforms and that still counts and that still matters. But But like the more that you reward the people that do want to show up and be there, which is why to me, there's also that intrinsic value that's outside of money, which is people's time and resources and all of that.

So there's really creative ways of like, like even with Mike and he has a community, it's only Steve's on grouped. Most Most of the people on their social media team now started off as just fans and and they were just making videos for free because they're fans of them. So then it's like, Hey, I'm going to incentivize you guys. If you guys are doing this for free already, if you get a video that gets to 10,000 views or more, like we'll pay you X amount per views, like let, let you're doing the work. Let's give it. Also, Also, we'll give you a free year of our subscription platform. Like Like you're bringing me values. So let me return the favor and bring you yours. And And there's a lot of value that fans have outside of just the dollar because of the economics right now. Um, Um, so I don't think it's necessarily that you always have to sell. It's It's that the trick, unfortunately, and with somebody like Mike, it's like, you can have 5 million monthlies across all the platforms and he's only got 10,000 people paying in his community. And And people talk about 2% of your fans. That's

That's like not even one, that's not even a half a percent of his fans. And he's been doing it for five years. So So everybody wants the more of the 5 million monthlies. And And in his mind, he's like, there's nothing wrong with being one of the 4.99 million people that are cool. Just streaming my stuff on Spotify. That's That's awesome. I .99 million people that are cool. Just streaming my stuff on Spotify. That's awesome. I support you. You're great. Keep doing that. But But for these 10,000 other people, they're the only ones that got access to Red Rock tickets and he sold it out two nights in a row, 20,000 tickets to the 10,000 people that wanted to show up. So like he got to sell out Red Rocks two nights in 90 minutes to people that chose to support and say that they value that. And And so they got the access, but but for the other people that are passive, it's like, you're, you still get the value. I'm still dropping songs weekly. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. right. So I do want to get a little bit deeper into the, the only Steve's case study, because I do think it's powerful and it's, it's really inspiring what, what Mike's done, you know, with, with that community and with your help. Right. But you've said something that, you know, we also talked about before that. I want to make sure we touch on. You You said a majority of people that are using grouped that are a part of any artist community are actually on a free tier. Is that really, okay. okay. So, but like, so, so, so unpack like what, what should, what should I do with that information? Right. As As an artist, like what, what does that mean? Because Because in my mind, I'm like, what the fuck? Like Like it wasn't the whole point of bringing them over here so that they pay me a monthly subscription. Like, Like, what are you talking about, Tim? Like, I don't want to sign up for grouped anymore, bro. Like Like why am, why am I thinking about it wrong like that? So

So the main value of grouped first is that it grows the three revenue streams that you actually care about. So So like, if you bring the value for free and you're reaching those people with early access to things and all this stuff for free, instead of charging, then over time, when you offer merch, when you go on tour, you sell more tickets, you sell more merch, you get more streams because you're not relying on social media, telling your fans that the song is out. You You can embed the song, embed the Spotify or the YouTube in your group, send the email to all of your members, not just your pro members. Hey, Hey, it's out. Like Like that is still value because as we know on social media, if you're only reaching three to 5% of your fans there, the thing that we all all know is artists hate continuing to promote the same song. But like, even if it's 5% and that's a good thing and you happen to rotate them, that means you still got to post 20 times about something for all of them to see it. And And what artist wants to post 20 times about their merch drop? Nobody.

Nobody. But But like, if you brought value and you've done these other things, then when you send that email about your merch drop, 80% of those people may buy that merch. And And you're actually not relying on the algorithms, which is the point of the direct to fan, but you're keeping them what I call warm by making sure that like when you do a giveaway, all the free members are automatically entered into the giveaway. So So they get an email that says, I'm giving away this, you're automatically entered. You You could give more entries to the paid tier. If If somebody really wants to win, I'm going to give away this shirt I wore on this album cover, which like Son Real did. And And if he does that, it's like everybody's entered, but if you want to be in the paid tier, you can get two extra entries or whatever. So, So, oh man, I really want that shirt. That's worth the nine bucks. But But like, you're not ostracizing the other people, but the main goal is to grow the three main revenue streams and simplify being an artist, which is my goal on social media is only two things to be consistent. So you don't forget about me. And

And two, to get you curious enough to want more, to get you to the 32nd point to want more. And And I think that that second one is what leads into y'all's question about like artists don't like selling and going out there and doing this. That's That's why I love like the many chats and more a partner with them is the best way to do it is at the end of a 32nd reel is when you tell people like a text overlay or something, the last two seconds, comment more to see more. And And then you're only marketing it to the people that made it to the end of the video, because those people are the people that want more. But But starting a video with like, Hey guys, do you want to give me your email? Or do you want to join this community? Or like, nobody wants that. That's not why we're on social media. We're there to be entertained. And like, you can do it in the comments of like, Hey, Red Rocks just sold out. Check the comments for a way to be able to be entered in to win the last couple free tickets.

And then you pin a comment that says comment rocks to get entered into the giveaway. And And it automates the selling just to the people that want to know about it versus you having to go to the public to all of your passive followers and say, do you want to buy shit? And they're like, no, I don't. I just hit follow. Cause I liked one of your videos one time. Henry, I think it's a good time to tell them about many chat. If

If you guys would like your first month off of many chat pro, you can go head on over to the one more time deals page. One more time to FM slash deals. We We also liked him highly believe in many chat. If more time to FM slash deals. We also liked him highly believe in many chat. If If we were ever trying to help an artist out and they didn't have many chat, that would be one of the first things we direct them at. And this also might be a good time to say, are you guys hearing what he's Tim Has this earned a like comment and subscribe yet? Cause Cause if not, I don't know. I mean, I mean, we're probably going to get some more, but like in my mind, guys, 75% of you aren't subscribed. Let's Let's click the bell. I love it. it. I love it. That's That's our value. We're exchanging value right now. That's right. I

I absolutely love it. And I echo both those things. I I tell people before you do group, before you do anything else, the reason for many chat is like the very first step in your career is can you get people from social media to take an action and and many chat automates that and makes it easy. So you don't have to worry about it, but but like you don't worry about how to sell merch. If you can't get people to give you their email, like like one thing at a time time and many chat, I agree. So head over to their deals page. And And also if you're not following and liking and subscribing after they have Nick D and LaRussell and people way smarter than me on here, I don't know about that, Tim. Do it now. You You guys are, don't, don't be a passive follower of this podcast.

Appreciate

that.

Great CTA, man. Yeah. And I think this is kind of a perfect segue. So in

in my mind, I'm just kind of thinking about this, right. And I'm like, all right, so we're talking basically about getting people off social into a community, right? Grouped, Grouped, you know, over on even whatever, right? Um, Um, when should I start doing that as an artist?

And to me, that's that, that first step. So it's basically how are people going to discover you the the easiest way, even though it's the most frustrating because nobody knows exactly the algorithms and they always change. But But the most beautiful thing is social media. Cause while you're sleeping, you can be getting new eyeballs and new curious fans. until you get people to the place of curiosity, it's not ready to be worried about anything else. And And there's many reasons that people may not be curious yet. You You haven't put in the 10,000 hours on the music side. So So your music's just not good enough. You You haven't put in the time on the social media content to figure out how to make it engaging enough and not salesy, whatever whatever it is. But like, that's where you start. Once Once you see that, like the watch time on your videos are getting longer, that people are commenting like before song drops, man, man, I wish I could hear this now. Like

Like once you're starting to get the rhythm there is where the next step to me is now use grouped as like that data capture tool. And then you bring the value for free there. And then the final step, it could be like a lay low would be a great example of like now use the numbers to test the waters and see, can you sell some merch? Can Can you now try this one thing to be able to sell? But But it's the slow progression of like you first have to put in the time to have a craft that's entertaining and good enough to get people to want more when they want more. That's where you got to automate the reward. But like the other side on the community, which I do just want to touch on because it was a difference. Like, you know, we started grouped. I did did it to help mainly Mike and John with only Steve's, but also coming from the blog era. I knew that I had hundreds of other friends that were like Mike that could capitalize on it. But But the real switch was like, it's not a community platform because artists don't wake up one day and say, I'm going to start a community. And no fan wakes up one day and says, I need a community to join. Like

Like the way, the way that that happens is because Mike for over a decade, every time he asked his fans for something he over delivered in value was was the result was a community. And that's why somebody like someone real who may not be the biggest, but crushes on grouped is the same thing. He's been touring and bringing value to his fans for over a decade. So So like the community is a byproduct of bringing value to the people that choose to show up and support. And And some people don't have time or money and the support is the follower, the stream on Spotify. That's That's fine. But But like the way that you get to the point of these people that we look at as the blueprint is not by all of a sudden trying to force it. So you don't go to groups because you're like, oh man, if I can just get a hundred people to pay me nine bucks a month, I'm going to be able to quit this side job. And And it's like, you could, but do you, have you even got a hundred emails? Like,

Like, have you tried the free ask before you go for the paid ask? And that's where I think a lot of times for me, the music industry is kind of rigged against them. You could be an artist that blew up, that got 2 million followers overnight, and you have no idea if you're going to sell five tickets or 5,000 tickets at a show. And that's where like companies like Playhouse that are coming up that are like trying to figure out how to do non -conventional ways to help on that. But the the first step is always like the easiest ask is, can you just give me the data? So that way I can reach you and not rely on this algorithm. And And if so, let me just start bringing value and I'll try the monetization next.

Yeah. I really liked the, just the whole, you think about paid community, you know, as like introducing this new offer to your fans, right? Or Or a place where you can introduce new offers. But the the fact that you can actually just use it to supercharge your current offers is something that I personally haven't really thought about as being so powerful. And I could see how that would be maybe more beneficial because it is less like overall asks. You know what I mean? It's It's just a free place where you're just kind of providing extra access, extra value. And just naturally the stuff that you're already offering certainly would just do better as a result. Amen.

Amen. Amen. And And that's why like, if you use groups, right, like you prevent the trend of like, like the phone number stuff of community, whether it is, I I love Laylo. I love a lot of these companies, but like I've seen artists that got a thousand numbers and their open rate is awesome and they love it. And And I've seen artists scale that all the way to 1.5 million numbers. And And as you go up that scale, the price of sending goes up dramatically. And And every single time the open rate and the engagement rate continues to decline. And And realistically, the value of groups is that that open rate and click rate continues to go up or at least stays the same. same. Because the biggest frustration that I do relate to with artists, they feel like every day they're starting back at zero. Even if they got the 500 phone numbers, they feel like four months later, they're not valuable. They're They're like, why did I spend that time getting the phone numbers? And

And then they just give up. And they're like, that wasn't valuable. I'll I'll just worry about the streams. I'll I'll just worry about this other thing. And And the beauty of groups is like that idea of like, you come here as an artist because you need something. The The platform just makes sure that before you publish it, we go, what does the fan get? And And that's it. And you just repeat that cycle. And And then when you're ready to ask for the money side, as you said, then the people are going to show up. Then they're going to show up to buy the merch and do those things.

So yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's kind of different than like, I mean, Curtis King captain, like D2C, like D2F, whatever we

shout out Curtis, shout out Curtis, but he kind of, he kind of disagrees with a lot of, I don't know. Or like his episode with us, approach. It It was like, it was way more like if you can get one person to buy this and do that, like start now. Right. Versus, I mean, and I don't know, I don't want to put words in or like, I don't want to summarize what I'm hearing wrong, but it's like, you are more a little bit on, on the page of like, like create some demand before you start worrying about this shit.

You know what I mean? Build

build some trust. That's mine. But like, I mean, Curtis had launched a group and like, I love, first of all, I love people that disagree. Like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not set on anything. I I don't think I have all of the answers. I I just think I listen to more artists complain on a daily basis.

Hey, y'all be complaining. Y'all motherfuckers be complaining. So do we, so do we, so do we. Like,

honest. But I do, I mean, I do really believe like, you know, that, that thousand true fans thing has also been a rule for the 17 years that I've been in the industry of like, you can get a thousand people to give you a hundred bucks throughout a year, man, you're making six figures. Like Like that is doable. But But the way that to me, you don't get there is like rushing that because there's a million ways to get those thousand people to give you a hundred bucks throughout the year. They They could, one of them is give me eight bucks a month. One One of them also is tell people you're going to drop a limited edition thing that there's only going to be 1000 of, and it comes with an album that only they'll hear a shirt that only they'll get. And you spend your whole year marketing that and you only sell one thing and it's that, but you sell it for a hundred bucks. That's

That's valid. That,

That, that could do it. So like there's, there's all the ways to get creative, to figure out how to hit that number, but but it's not from over asking, over asking. And that's the, that's also to me, part of the flaws and like an even.biz or something is like, if you're relying on only making the money from people having to pay to hear your album early, eventually fans are going to get fatigued and be like, I'll just wait for it to come on streaming. So like, what's the, like, you're going to have to drop five albums that year. And then you're going to have the same problem of like, buy the fifth album. People just don't want to buy it. Yeah, bro.

I feel that. I feel that. Cause again, I don't know. Cause it's also, I mean, I'm literally talking about Curtis now. Cause he, you remember he was like, my music is medicine. He He said, my music is medicine. So when you were like, Oh, my music is the only reason someone should care. I was kind of like hearing Curtis be like, my music saves lives. Like y'all should pay for this. He's

He's an artist. I know. Different lens. like hearing Curtis be like, my music saves lives. Like y'all should pay for this. He's an artist. I know. Different lens. I should believe that.

Artists should believe that. And they do believe that every every artist. I'm not kidding. Almost every artist believes this is the value. And because I put this out into the world, I almost deserve this stuff without without realizing like the recognition, recognizing the fans who do choose to give you money, shout them out. Like artists think they're too cool to know their names or to put that on their Instagram story or whatever, like like celebrate those people. One, like don't be too cool on that side. Um, Um, but to make sure that if you think your music is the value, how can you over deliver in that value for people?

And

And there's people like Nick D's and Connor Price and people that y'all have had on and know that drop a song every week for free. And And those songs are great. And And so if you're dropping one album that year and you dropped eight songs and you think that you deserve $200,000 that year, you're going to sign a terrible record label deal or or you're going to start a paid community and get three people to sign up for it.

No. Yeah. And shout out to Curtis. Curtis, you know, I love you, bro. I'm

I'm just, I'm just like, I'm just hearing what, I mean, it's it's just, it's different. The thing I love about put a link to his episode in the top corner of course. The

The thing I love about this is there isn't a science to any of this. It's It's not black and white. It's all gray. And you guys have to try things, right? Just like we have to consistently try different ways to like get different guests on there telling it. We don't know what the fuck y'all are going to end up like to

shout out this tattoo, to fail. Yeah. And, and, but it's all about shout out this tattoo, fail, learn, repeat.

repeat. That's one of of my life models. We didn't didn't even plan that.

If you ain't failing, you ain't trying. And if you aren't learning, you're an idiot. But

But like, that's it.

That's amazing. Um, Um, so just again, kind of on the practical tip, like you've seen a bunch of artists do this, I'm assuming. So So like, what is a tried and true way? Like, let's say we see the demand kind of like comment section is heating up engagements. People are talking about like, you know, excited about the new song coming out or whatever. So you can kind of see the demand cooking. What What is the most tried and true way to get people off social into a community? Um,

Um, yeah, I mean, once again, I just want to say it's not that you're getting them off social into a community. It's It's really that you're getting them off social for something. So it's, it's the one CTA because the one mistake that a lot of artists make to me is they try to sell community that that they try to say, leave social media and come join my fan club, join my community. And like, as I said, no fan really wants that you you have a couple super fans, even if it's just your mom and your girlfriend or whatever, like like you have some people that will join that, but you're not going to have more people that want to join that because you don't create more super fans on social media.

So like we need to get specific. Exactly.

Exactly. So like the problem that artists run into on the Patreons and everywhere else is if they launch, they get 5,000 people in there the first month. And at the end of a year, they still only have 5,000 people or maybe even less because some canceled because because you're not cultivating more fans in these other places. You're, You're, you're cultivating curiosity. So like the thing to think of on social media is like, what is the thing that you're promoting the the video that you're doing the picture that you're putting up? Is Is there something that is related to this, that that if people comment and use the many chatter, if people click the link or do the thing, I can give them more because because now the call to action is not give me your email. The call to action is not join my community. The The call to action is like, you just saw this song. This This song doesn't come out till next Friday. If If you want to hear it now, click here. And then they get sent to pre -save it. After

After they pre -save it, boom, they immediately get to stream that song or get to do that thing. So like the call to action isn't, isn't community and isn't this grandiose thing. You're not over promising anything. You're just saying to people on socials, if you want more here, if you click this thing, I'll immediately give you that thing that you're looking for. Which

Which kind of goes with your, uh, your mini chat philosophy. You kind of started breaking down earlier. It's It's like not just a general comment this for, you know, to join my community. It's It's like, no, if you liked this, what you saw in this post, here's comment more to get more of this. It's keeping it very specific and what they want. It's almost like an upsell, but obviously it's free to be,

I'm assuming like this first one is free. So So it's like, wait, well, I just love this

thing. Even if it's paid community, it's like secretly, you know, you're pitching the thing and then it's like, maybe they hit paywall or something. something. Yeah. But yeah, that's just so sharp. But yeah, that's just so sharp. It's different, man.

And we saw it like, uh, like Jake, uh, JVKE.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When

When without ever promoting his community once never once talked about it, never once did anything like that. It It was always at the end of just their social media videos. They just had the template that was just the same thing. And it was like, comment, fam FVM to see more. And And like, they just put that text on the last three seconds of every video and got like 80,000 people that were willing to put their email in to see more.

Cause that's where, cause that's where they got found on something that they were

So like the biggest thing is under promise and over deliver, but make it simple in your journey. So like, that's why I like the many chat, like artists artists are overwhelmed. The idea of starting another platform, doing another thing is like, yo, I have no time for that. But But the idea is like really simplify it. Like Like the content for socialers should be efficient and entertaining. And And then you should have some type of automation set in place. So So if you're doing it right now, they've given you their data, then you should be able to, now that I'm using this data every time I need something and a great, like this is to me, the beauty of why grouped becomes part of a artist ecosystem is like, if I tell somebody, Hey, if you want to see this music video early, give me your name, email and phone number. Great. Great. your name, email and phone number. Great. Everybody that gives you their name, email and phone number immediately gets to watch that music video. The next day or a week later, I go, Hey, do you want to be entered into this merch giveaway? Give

Give me your name, email and phone number. Well, Well, that's all the artist is thinking about is going to socials to get more people. But with grouped, every single fan that is already given you their name, email and phone number just gets notified. You're already in this giveaway. So So the person that just gave you their data just to see that one music video is now getting over delivered in value every single time you go to get more people. And that's the idea of keeping them warm is is like, if, if, if they came for one thing and you gave them that one thing that starts the trust. If If you keep giving them shit automated and the artist doesn't even have to worry about it. Well, now it looks like magic. When I go to sell the merch and my merch sales are 10 times higher. It's like, that should be a group group should be magic behind the scenes.

podcast podcast join?

actually do have a fair amount of podcasts.

Let's go. go. Oh, actually, no. Fuck. I was about to say, join our group.

That's not how you do it. What can we, if you want to hear more? Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe we put something. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. And

And also to me, that's one of the beautiful things is like how you guys did the many chat plug in it. It's like at the end of a podcast, that's what YouTubers and people do really well. It's like, you made it to the end of this. Do you want to see more? Well, Well, now this is the time to pitch it, but but pitching a patron or grouped or whatever in the first five minutes or the first ad read makes no sense.

It's

It's only for the people that want more. So do it at the end. sense. It's only for the people that want more. So do it at the end. Absolutely. Like that's the, that's the very, to me, like way to simplify things is is you don't want to take away from the beauty of the YouTubes and the Spotify's and the social media. Like Like it is beautiful to be there, but but the goal is, can you keep getting better at what you guys do? So more people keep going to the end of it. And the more you keep getting people going to the end, the more you have possibilities to do infinite ways to monetize. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, cause obviously if they got to the end, they probably do want to see more,

especially like an hour plus long podcast 30 second reel, but

but even, I mean, dude, you know how social media works.

You see our fucking retention. That also falls off the cliff. Like, Like, I mean, we're not the only ones, right?

It's like social media, everyone's just fucking doom scrolling. So if they make it to the end, if their percentage view, like if their percentage watched, like statistic is 90 plus percent, the odds odds that they want more is pretty fucking high. I would assume. Amen.

Amen. Amen. That's That's exactly it. Then like, honestly, a great example was like, um, Connor price and Brie had started a podcast called, um, the independent podcast, which was awesome. And, And, uh, then obviously life happens and stuff. And originally Nick kind of came in as like a third one. And then Brianna kind of stepped back, back, but like shout out Connor and Brie for starting that amazing podcast. Great. Same idea of like, let's bring value to independent artists, teach them what's working with us. Then Then it became Connor and Nick. Then Then eventually Connor wanted out and like, I got handed the reins of like, Hey, you take over the independent podcast. Did you know that by the way?

No, I didn't know the full podcast podcast just ended up in Tim's lap.

So then I end up as like the, the owner of it with all the logins supposed to figure out what to do. And as Nick knows, and as most people know, like I've gone out of my way to stay behind the scenes. I I didn't want to be on camera. I don't want to be the other host on it. Um, Um, so instead I got my friend, John Kilmer to be the other host. So then it became Nick and John and I'm just organizing the guests and doing everything. And then eventually it switched where I want to bring value outside of, if we're going to do this outside of just a podcast, I want to be able to bring value for free to people in a community. So why not? And And then it's transitioned from the independent podcast to now the artist community.com. And like that is a community that's on group. That's only free for artists to join. And And it does have podcasts. It It have what I call our Tim talks, which are like 20 minutes of me just rambling to the camera on a topic. We do win a feature from Nick D contests and give away a thousand bucks.

We do live stream music reviews, but like the evolution was kind of like, Hey, the podcast was great. One, One, two, it's kind of weird because Connor and Bree started this and now it's Nick, John and me behind the scenes that that that's like not concurrent. But But the last part, the last part for me was also, and this is kind of something I'd be curious on y'all's thoughts because you guys have asked me a lot, but like personally, I'm actually not a huge fan of the term independent. Um, Um, and like, I don't mean that in any way other than I think it gets misconstrued a lot of times to artists and makes them feel like they should be able to do everything on their own. Like Like you don't need a label. You don't need all of these other things. You You can do it all. Just listen to these independent artists, but but these independent artists, a lot of times still have a manager taking 20%, a booking agent taking 5%, a lawyer taking 5%. They

They may even be paying their videographer or somebody else or giving them a percent. And And they're still getting 55 cents of them at every dollar. They They just built their team themselves instead of going to a label and being like, you take the 55 cents and build the team for me. Like, Like, I think the, the actual thing is artists, if you're going to try to do everything, you're going to try to sell merch, you're going to try to be big on socials. You want to tour, you want to do it all. It's going to take a team. Now, Now, how you structure the team is totally up to you. Don't get taken advantage of don't sign bad deals from people at false promises and all of that, but but it's not like it's label or independent. And And how many artists do we know that sign distro deals and take an advance and immediately are only getting 80, 20 splits on their streaming after recoupment? Like Like that, are you not like you got the money that the money is part of your team. And, And, and the last like example I'll say to that, which excites me is like the two extremes of like two artists that find ways to make millions of dollars.

Nothing in common is like chance, the rapper, when he's coming up decides to give his music away for free as a mixtape. And And the result of that is that the Grammys change how the Grammys are voted on. So So he gets accolades now. And And number two, his number three hat that he wore, he makes millions of dollars in a year selling that hat because he made something that was mass viable because it was free. So like you gave something out for free. The masses love it. You monetize on merch and you get accolades. Then Then you have somebody like Nick D and and Nick D does not care about the accolades one, but two for, I would say three of the last four years, has never even had a place to buy merch. Doesn't Doesn't care about merch, nothing about it, but but he releases a song every single week and they're unbelievably good. And he can make his millions of dollars from DSPs that we're all supposed to hate. So So like one doesn't sell merch. One makes all of his money on merch. One

One makes all of his money on music. One gives out his music for free. They're They're both happy. They both did it their own ways. There's stuff to learn from both of them. But But if Nick wants to go do merch, bring in a teammate to maybe help you do it. If you don't want to do it, that that teammate should be compensated. So like the independent, the long rant on that is I'm super curious how you guys feel because I think we celebrate independence. Let's

Let's go.

Uh, yeah, it's a spectrum for sure. It's a spectrum. A hundred percent. That's you can't argue with that. Henry's on the spectrum. Also Also probably true. Anyway,

come on.

That's why it's a spectrum. We all all are. I love the term independent. Ooh, Ooh, okay. I'm I'm a huge fan of the term independent. All right. All right. But I think it's a spectrum just like a lot of this stuff is. So to your point, um, it is important that people understand that independent does not mean solo because because yes, we're, it's just the same. It's true for any business. You know, if you want to scale a business at some point, you can't do the shit by yourself. And And you guys are tiny music companies when you start out doing it all by yourself. But But if you end up adding team members and expanding and multiplying your operation, uh, that, that doesn't mean you're not independent anymore. It just means, you know, essentially you're not signed to a label to to me. What independent means is that, you know, it's sort of like a badge of like, yeah, like I am building this. I'm really hands -on. Um, Um, I really care about like nurturing this thing and building it. Um, I'm doing, I care more about this than just the music. So what that means for different artists, I think is, could be vastly different. You

You don't have to like say you're independent ever and that's fine. But But for someone like a LaRussell, his whole shtick is like, I'm an independent artist. You know what I mean? Like, Like, this is what I do. I love building.

Was, but that was why he got backlash. Then when he signs is like, Oh, now you're not.

That's true. Oh yes. People evolve. That That is true. And And I don't know the exact terms that that he did, you know, I mean, again, wasn't a distro deal. So then to your point, like, is that a real independent artist now? Like that's true. Yes. It's, it's, it's sort of just a, to me, it's like a label of like, I'm grinding and I'm building this thing. Yeah. I mean, I'll say this. I, I, and go ahead. ahead. Go Go ahead.

totally, that's the positive side of the term. To To me, it is like the DIY ownership. I I don't want to be taken advantage of. of. I want to figure out how to do it my way. And And like, I love that. It's not asking for the shortcut. It's It's not asking for somebody else to take over everything. That's That's all of the positive signs. But But I do think your LaRussell example and what you said does kind of back it up that like, if you want to keep growing, once you master and understand one thing, you're probably going to want to delegate or hand off or do something else. So like, to me, the beautiful part is not, not taking the time to learn and perfect and do it on your own. And And then you'll figure out whether or not you like to do it or not. And it could be the same, like with you as a mixing engineer and studio engineer and being involved there, encourage artists, like try to learn to mix your own song. And And then you'll figure out whether or not it's worth outsourcing, but like, try it first.

Don't just do the shortcut of like, oh, I'll just find a mixing engineer and give them X percent because that's kind of the same way.

How many times do I say, know the job you're hiring for? Yeah. Amen.

Amen. Yeah. I'm curious. I'm I'm curious for you. you. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean,

mean, for me, it's like, I agree that I think independent gets twisted with full DIY. Right. And again, I don't know why Curtis is coming up so much on this podcast, but like he's very much like DIY. He He prides himself on recording himself, producing himself, uh, newsletter, being like all the things like like he's, he's very proud of the fact that he is kind of like wearing all the hats. And And I mean, I know that he deals with burnout though. And And that's where I think the, the like line is where sure, even if you could do all the roles, a, are you actually like lowering your ceiling, right? right? By doing all the things because you're one person just, I mean, realistically, you're not going to be able to, I don't think reaches a, you know, a certain level that maybe someone with outsourced to help, right? Whether it's again, percentages are being thrown out, just dollars are being thrown out equity in your company's being thrown out. I don't know the different structures, but for me, I love independent to mean kind of entrepreneurial. That's

That's what I kind of like. But But as I heard you talking about it, like being really hands -on and this, that, and the third, someone like a Billie Eilish comes to mind who I've heard is just maniacally hands -on about her business. Right. But But obviously signed major so on and so forth. So like, you know, she's not independent and, but I think she's pretty entrepreneurial. I don't don't know her, right. But from what I've heard about her, someone like her is like extremely entrepreneurial, Taylor Swift, same thing from what I've, you know, gathered from, you know, uh, all the research and kind of just what you hear about her. So I don't know, like, I love, I love tying it more to entrepreneurial and entrepreneurs don't do everything themselves. Or, but in the beginning you do have to. So in the beginning, that's the way you scale any company, like for even groups, like I'm

I'm building the website, doing the social media, running the customer support. Like you have to do it all because that's all you have in the beginning. But I I think this ties very nicely back to, this is what I believe the future of the music industry and with artists is, is that we treat artists like startups. And like, realistically, when you're doing a startup, a couple things happen. Normally Normally you need to raise money to scale because you don't just use your own money all the time to grow your business. You You raise a pre -seed round, you raise a seed round, you raise a series A. The raise a pre -seed round, you raise a seed round, you raise a series A. The people that are putting in the money understand it's a risk. I I may not get anything back, but I may hit it big. And And with artists, every single person that gives an artist money says, the only risk I'm willing to take is do I recoup in five years or 10 years? Because Because I'm guaranteed to recoup. There

There is no risk almost in the music industry from anybody that gives you money. Anytime Anytime they give you money, it's in the thing, they're going to recoup one way or another. So So like, that's not fair. But the second part is like, in the startup world, I may not be able to, in the early stages, afford to pay you what you're worth, but but you believe in what I'm doing and I know your value so I can pay you in what's called the sweat equity. Like Like I can only pay you half of what you deserve, but the other half, if you believe in me, I'm going to give you equity. And And then there's some people that are like, yo, this isn't worth equity or any of that. It's It's worth me just paying you that money. And And that could be in the music industry for me is like the future could be in a world where if you think about the manager's 20% for 20%, I don't want 20% on a manager's deal to think about. I want to think about 20% of the artists LLC. And

And like, because a good manager should be with that artist for as long as possible, but they're getting 20% of every dollar that comes in, they're getting 20%. And And most, and this is why the economics are fucked. If If my goal is for an artist to make a hundred thousand dollars a year for me as a manager to make a hundred thousand dollars a year, if I'm taking the high end of 20%, I need five artists, which means I'm only going to spend an hour and a half every day on each artist, but but I'm taking 20% from that artist. Those Those economics are fucked. Like Like that doesn't make any sense. But for the same 20%, imagine that an artist could give 5% to their videographer or somebody like that. Imagine Imagine they could give 10% of that to five different advisors. They could get five different advisors that each get 2%. Those Those people are just there to open doors, to do the connections that the gatekeeping of the music industry is. They

They just send some texts, but they're well worth it because they're established. And And then you got another 5% to be like, what are they passionate about? They like gaming? Let's Let's get somebody in the gaming ecosystem here. And And instead of giving 20% to a manager, we gave 20% to all of them. And And I'm just going to pay somebody 15 bucks a month to be my day -to -day manager slash assistant. Just Just check my emails, check my DMs, send out the newsletter, do whatever. But like, maybe that's not worth the investment of the equity and all this other stuff. So I think like the future in order to equate the playing field and get rid to me of like the connotations of either label or independent or whatever is like, just treat it like a startup. It's It's risky to get involved with a startup early on. You don't know whether or not it's going to win. It's It's the exact same with an artist. It's risky if you get involved early on. But But the really shitty part is the manager a lot of times that helps blow up that artist early on when there's no money gets dropped. And then a new manager comes in and they're able to do it.

And I know there's sunset clauses, but normally they run out after two years. But But like that manager that was there should have the long -term payoff. They They should at least still be getting 2% of the Justin Bieber like 15 years later. I I just don't believe the deals are structured in a way that like make economic sense almost for anyone. It It doesn't make it for the manager. It's not making it for the artist. It's not making it for the videographers and for other people. So So I really love the idea that you're saying like the independence, the entrepreneurial, and like the fact that you said you don't hire for a job that you don't know how to do because because like you got to learn how to do it. And then you know, is this worth giving somebody some percentage and equity? Is Is this worth me just paying somebody to do it mediocre? Cause it's not worth it. Or should I be doing this on my own? But But like, you got to know all of it. And And then you start to realize, Ooh, I like the merch thing. You You know what?

I kind of want to own more of this process. But But as you said, you can't do it all or you're going to burn out. And I'm an entrepreneur and I deal with that all the time. Like burnout is an extremely real thing, which is why that's the negative connotation of independent. I don't like is is like, it promotes this idea that if you do everything all the time, every single aspect to me, the only guarantee is that you're going to burn out. And I want people to be happy. I don't want people to just own everything and be miserable and burning out all the time. Like Like take a vacation and know that your business can still operate. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think we're both big proponents of like what we kind of call like the modern manager sort of arrangement. We had a really good episode with Ty Basden who has, you know, he doesn't have a manager's contract with Brent Fias. They own with Brent Fias. They own a business together. And And what that results is, yeah, like he's operating all the time and doing the things that a business owner would be doing, you know, while Brent is sleeping. And And it's very different than what 20%, you know, of just the artist side with a manager gets. gets. So if you guys are interested in that, we'll definitely put a link to that episode up in the top right corner. Great episode. Yeah. Yeah. But I almost like, I mean, if I'm hearing Tim, it's almost like buck a manager, bro. Like Like maybe just have way more people involved that are with like smaller slices of the pie, like that 20%, that shit's like old school as fuck, man. Like back when there wasn't like modern manager,

because it's also like the, the term manager, at least for me, I mean, it's right up there with distros, but like I have a phone book full of managers and I only have like five to 10 that I would ever recommend.

Oh no. Shout out to all the other managers in Tim's phone.

But also they will not take new artists that need managers because they're good managers. They know their capacity. And And the only way you scale management is let me hire more managers to manage these more artists.

It sucks. Which

Which means it's not you.

I hate it.

So like you're spending less and less time with a bigger roster.

It doesn't make any sense. But

But also like in the beginning, there is nothing to manage. You You don't have a demand.

They're literally email answerers. Yeah. Yeah. Not even. There's no email. There's not even any.

They're marketers. Cause like, just like, just like anything else, like like in the beginning, the thing an artist needs is I need eyeballs. I I need people to see that I exist so so that way then they can use their ears and listen to my music and tell me whether or not it's good. So So the most valuable thing in the beginning is people that can help you with social media, people that can help you make more music. music. So you put in your 10,000 hours. It's like, that's the beginning part that that is valuable. That's That's what you need before you need a manager. But But then as you scale, you might actually need more of a business manager, a COO more, somebody that can help you set the structure and do that. But But like, realistically, it went record labels were gatekeepers. Now managers are gatekeepers. They They just say, oh, dude, I could get you in the studio with Post Malone. And And it's like, well, you got to sign this contract and give me 20 cents of every dollar.

Even

Even if you fire me tomorrow, I get it for the next three years.

Like

Like what to send that one text to spend 30 minutes a day on me? The The person that's actually going to spend the eight hours or 10 hours a day on you, chances are they don't have the network. So So just pay them, pay them to spend that time just like you would do an employee. But But like, I just don't want the gatekeeping to be a reason that like, it's time is money and all of this, but I don't think managers aren't valuable. I I just don't think that management economically makes sense, which is why most managers aren't good managers. Yeah. So I just love the idea of like, man, early on, you better find yourself like a damn near like chief marketing officer. Cause that's like, to your point, that's like early on, that's all that matters, bro.

You just need to literally like help you, help you refine your brand. I mean, that's part of it. The

The content, of course, as we know, it's the like freest, easiest part of marketing as a, you know, emerging artist. But yeah, man, it's like understanding the brand that you're building, the world that you're building around your music. Right. And who should give a fuck about this and how do we reach them? Like, that's it. Amen.

Amen.

Right. Like, Like, and so, and a lot of y'all are hiring people again, that like, want to be A &Rs maybe type shit. I don't really know who y'all are thinking. Studio matchmakers. Yeah. Yeah. Like just the homie that wants to be in the studio with you a lot. Like go every Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I do want to, you know, you kind of hinted at a couple of ways that, um, that Mike built only Steve's, uh,

uh, is there anything else that you think is maybe important for our audience to know about like the way that Mike went about only Steve's? Because I do know it was like the earliest example. It's kind of what like started grouped almost. I I mean, right. It was like the first, it was the first group on groups, right?

Um, it actually, it actually wasn't the the crazy thing is. So he started it on another platform.

Okay. Okay. I

I went to support him on that platform and like every 30 seconds got kicked out and logged out.

Okay. And I was like, bro, I'm trying to support you and this is terrible. Um, Um, and then, and I got an idea was like, okay,

even at that time he was like, you know, it's not big enough. Like it's not worth the hassle or whatever. It's kind of working, but but I saw the potential. So I wanted to do it. So So when I ended up eventually getting shot down and nobody else that existed, like the patrons and others would believe in what I was saying that it's not, they're not far off, but like a free tier white labeled and we got to prevent platform fatigue. It It can't be a zoom integration. You got to build the live stream, but it's got to have the capabilities of zoom and Instagram and YouTube. Um, of zoom and Instagram and YouTube. Um, like there, there were just some fundamental things. So then when I started grouped, I actually went to Mike and Kilmer and told them, I'm going to give you part of my equity just out of like, you guys are the pioneers just just out of like, I've known y'all for 15 years, like like Kilmer found Mike on my music blog back in the day because I premiered Mike's first ever song. He He sent it to me and he was like, I made this as a joke at Duke, put it up.

Kilmer hit me up the next day after I premiered it. Can you introduce me? And now they're basically partners, man, like beautiful thing. So So for me, it was just kind of like full circle. I I wouldn't be doing this company if it wasn't for y'all. I'm going to give you a little piece of equity. And And then I went to Nick D and I was like, to me, you're the like face right now of the independent artists and trying to educate them and trying to do this. And And I don't want to build a platform and sell it to artists. I I want my artist friends to help me build this platform. Cause y'all know your problems best. And And so the Genesis was like, I'm going to go with Nick. I'm going to give them this piece of equity out of respect. And And the first year we'll get 30 of my friends on the platform that are big enough that they have fans, but good enough friends that like, they'll text me when something goes wrong and not be mad because it's going to be an MVP. It's going to have bugs. It's not going to be great. And it just so happened, Mike and John wanted to move only Steve's over anyway. And that was great.

And it just so happened. Those 30 artists that we started out with were like Forrest Frank and Connor Price and a niece and Michael Minnelli and good artists that like naturally both helped us shape the platform. But But also when we opened it to the public, then we don't have to market because everybody wants to do what they were doing. so like Mike and John are like the originators of it, but but to bring both the conversation and everything full circle with like what they did with only Steve's I describe it as like the, the fan journey is typically a continuous cycle that at the end, you always are asking for things. Typically like like you keep touring, you keep selling merch, you keep doing stuff, but like like it starts with, can I get you to know that I exist? Okay. Okay. Now they're aware of you. Can

Can I get you to be entertained and curious? Great. Great. Can I get you to take an action? Awesome. Awesome. Can Can I get you to buy something? Amazing. Amazing. Can Can I get you to pay $9 a month? And And if you get to that point, the beautiful thing about those people, I never have to ask you for anything ever again. You're You're paying me $9 a month. That's That's the end of the cycle. I no longer have to sell to you. You You are already making my livelihood. And with somebody like Mike and only Steve's if next year he decides he's done music and he wants to write a book, there'll be his focus group for his book. Yo, I'm thinking about these titles. What do you think? I'm thinking about these, uh, the, the cover for it. What do you guys think? Here's Here's a passage. Like Like they're there for it, but they get everything first and all of his time and attention because they're the ones he never has to ask for anything. anything. So it stops the circle of, I have to keep asking you for things, but

So it stops the circle of, I have to keep asking you for things, but that's why I only recommend normally to people that are either very business minded and understand why the patrons, why these other things are lucrative businesses or to, and, or that you've had a history of being able to tour successfully multiple tours and have VIP or some type of upgrades. Because Because until you've been able to get to that point of like, man, people keep coming out. They keep spending money. Then Then you can go to, well, do you just want to do this one thing? And it's nine bucks a month, but but I'm going to give you a thousands of dollars in value. And And Mike and them give away five, 10, $20,000 sometimes in a month, they'll they'll give away, Hey, we'll fly you somewhere. And you have a week in a mansion. They'll They'll do so many different things because 10,000 people are like at the end of that journey. And And so it's so easy to over deliver there. But

that's why I tell people like, what stage are you at? Have you gotten them aware that you exist? Good. Good. Good. You've gotten them curious. So they hit a follow. Awesome. Have you even tried the action step? Have you even tried to get data or do you just have a lot of followers?

That's where it stops. I think for a lot of, I I was was was like, like, wait, wait, hold on. We We just lost most artists. We didn't make it there yet. We didn't make it there yet, Tim.

that, that action step is, is the tough one, which is why once again, go to their deals page and fucking sign up for many. One

month free of mini chat pro head head on over guys.

Okay. Good. Um, but like, so you mentioned kind of the, the red rocks, um, shows that were exclusively offered to his community, right? shows that were exclusively offered to his community, right? Only Steve's.

Well, that wasn't originally the plan. So really the plan was basically, basically Monday was going to be for the paid ones.

Yeah. They

They got first access.

Yeah.

Tuesday was going to be for all of his members and clear the free ones. Basically Wednesday becomes the like Spotify and the partners pre -sale one.

Okay.

Thursday becomes the artist social on sale. And then Friday's open to the public. Okay.

Okay. And

And there was one red rock show they they put up on that Monday, the red rock show to the paid tier. It It sells out in 90 minutes. So there, there are no more tickets for any more of the days, except for, I think red rocks. I can't remember the exact amount. think it's like 5% of the tickets. So like roughly four or 500 have to be saved to go on sale to the public. But like the 95% of tickets, whatever sell out. So then it's like, Oh shit. Can we do a night too? Let's Let's do a night too. And we'll do that one this way. Night I think less than an hour to the paid tier again,

because

they know these are the tickets that everybody's going to want. And And now the craziest part, two things, one, one, it's 20,000 tickets, but think about how much money it would take to run ads on social media, to retarget your followers, to send the text on Laylo. And And what did he do? He He turned that into a revenue stream. So So what was an expense to go market this tour? I I just made $90,000 in a month from the people that want to buy the thing that I was going to sell anyway. Mind blowing, to buy the thing that I was going to sell anyway. Mind blowing, mind blowing economics. One, number two, this is how crazy it gets. I've I've never heard of this. They sold out 1600 rooms in a hotel to the Steve's, the people going to Red Rocks. They They got an entire hotel and got the conference room and everything and sold that out. So like, think about the amount of revenue that these 10,000 people are bringing in. Like

Like it is absolutely unreal. You're creating a whole weekend around the people that actually care and they're showing up because they know 12 years ago when they went to the first Mike show, probably 40 people showed up, could could have been a bad show, but instead Mike goes, meet me at the bar next door and I'm going to buy everybody's drinks and we're going to party. So So they're like, dude, this is amazing. So now next time Mike comes through, they're bringing all their friends. Yo, this guy's the shit. We had a blast. That's the guy I went to the bar with. Like each time over those years, years and years and years of doing it, he just over delivered and made sure they kept having fun. And And now he's at the luxury of being like, after doing that for 12 years, I only have 0.2% of my fans that care enough to be here. I I have 5 million people that know about me and love streaming my music. And And I've been doing this community for five years, six years. And I only have 0.2%, but

but those 0.2% do everything that every artist ever wished they could do. Like Like sell out Red Rocks two nights, sell out a hotel, be able to sell millions of dollars in merch every year. Why? Why? Because Because of these people.

Wow. merch every year. Why? Because of these people. Wow. Henry, we've entered a final segment of the podcast. I

I was going to make him talk more about other, I I was like, but the hotel thing just set me off. I was like, that's fucking nuts. Unbelievable, man. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. What is it about the only prefix that just gets people to open their wallets? got to study that. I I don't know. What could we be called? What can we make ours called?

Only one more time.

Yeah.

It's not as cool as only Steve's. Come on, man. We'll do better, Tim. Tim. Anyway, this is the rapid fire rampage. Oh yeah. I've seen the show. Hopefully you're familiar. Three Three quick segments. I'll explain them as we go. Starting with the short answer segment. And before we even get into this guys, one more time, please. I I mean, Tim is absolutely cooking this episode. This This has been like, I've even learned so, so much. Oh, please. If that's incredible, incredible, that's earned a like and a comment and a subscribe, it would mean the world to us. We really appreciate you guys. Anyway, onto the rampage starting starting with on a scale of one to 10 and be honest, rate Ben as an interviewer.

Eight and a half, nine.

Okay.

Take that. All right. There's room for growth.

Eight and a half, nine. And I know, I know this is supposed to be short answers. So like twofold, genuinely passionate and curiosity that makes the best interviewer. So I mean, it's not just being handed questions to to a little bit of homework beforehand and and three fun as hell to talk to. Let's

Let's go, man. Sounds like a great guy. guy. Who are we talking about?

You like how I just basically got you a testimonial there? Thank Thank you, man. Moving on. What would you say is the most overrated metric that artists obsess over?

Monthly listeners on Spotify. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Who Yes. Who cares? God, they fucked up artists head with that Yes. Who cares? God, they fucked up artists head with that one. They did.

If they, but I mean, I know what they're doing for their business. It's good for their business, but

but it does. So easily, so easily manipulated. It has no real value to show. Do Do you have fans? Are you having a moment? It's just, it's yeah. And is, is there a feature, is is there a feature that's caring and you actually don't even have any percentage of the salt? Like

Like you're not making any money because the, you were paid a shitty feature fee. I don't know. know. There's just too many,

but what happened to the whole, they were getting rid of it for a minute. Remember that? I got so excited by that. Yeah. But then

they didn't care about artists, mental health and business.

Jesus. Anyway, Tim, you have called yourself a middleman your whole career. Give us your best, like I connected two people and then the magic just kind of unfolded story.

Damn.

That's a good one. That's That's a good one.

I want to hear about it.

it. I don't know if I have ever been asked that. I mean, mean, a lot of times the ones that are really good realistically are ones that I, like I wouldn't ever publicly say. I

I knew it. I I knew it. I

I knew it. But

But it's, it's also typically because I do really believe when artists come to me and they think they have a problem, the thing that they're coming to me that they think is the problem is not the actual thing. So So like a lot of times if an artist comes to me and they're like, man, you know, during COVID, I need to sell my catalog. And And it's like, okay, do you need to sell your catalog or are you living outside your means and you can't tour right now? And why are you living in that mansion by yourself? Like a lot of times I've connected people to make money or do good things. Um, Um, I would say to me, one of the coolest ones was like, there's a old school producer that kind of came up during like the Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears day. His name's Mike Shimshack. And I consider him one of the best humans in Nashville. And And I just love him. He's He's completely out of music. He's

He's gotten into, he went through some health issues and stuff. He He got really into, couldn't find answers for his health issues. So frequencies and trying to find alternative health ways. And how can he use his skills with production and audio to maybe have health benefits and stayed in my circle. And I love him to death. And And when we would catch up, he would just tell me how much he loves this artist V -Wills. And, And, you know, I mean, I went to Victor's wedding. I love him and his wife. He is family. And eventually I was just like, look, I'm going to connect you guys. I I don't think there's anything professional here that can do anything other than the fact that I just love you too dearly. And I just hope you guys get on the phone. And And then randomly, I don't know, three months later, I see on his story, on Mike Shimshack's story, I'm honored enough to work with Jay Laker and produce this song on V -Wills EP. And And I was like, Victor, you brought my friend who used to be a goat and hasn't produced and been in music in years out of retirement. And

And he made a song with you? What is going on? And like seeing little things of like, I always say my job is technically to be on my phone. It takes me 30 seconds to do text intros between people. And like, there's never a, hey, I expect anything from either of you other than the fact that you guys both know I'm giving you both the Tim Cosign and I love you both. Just spend five minutes to see if there's anything here. And like, whether or not there is, is great. But like, I also hate taking credit for things. So probably the really cool ones that you want me to talk about, I would gladly talk to you guys off

was so cool. And And I love V -Wills too. Yeah.

Yeah.

was literally listening to him on the way over here. I'm I'm not even kidding.

Shout it out. The

The song that I was talking about is called Hometown 2. Okay.

Okay.

Or just Hometown, but it was on his EP and and just look, go to V -Wills, look for the orange cover with the little desert cactus and check out Hometown and and shout out Jay Laker who worked on that with with Shimshack.

Hell yeah.

Fire. Okay, Tim, scenario. An An artist is on Instagram. They They just noticed that someone they've never heard of liked one of their posts, left a very supportive comment, right? Like, I love this song or where can I find this song and and followed them. So, you know, things are, this is the dream, right? Something's Something's happening. Where Where do you see as the, what are some like good very first steps? I I know you like talk about value. What are like some just actual tactical, practical things an artist could do from that point?

So I'm assuming this is going to be earlier on in the stages where like, they can do the time to do that. Yeah.

Yep. So

So the very first thing is like thinking about why is that so cool and valuable to the artist? They're They're feeling seen, heard and validated. And like that really supportive message is making them feel good. Honestly, good. Honestly, rather than reply to their comment, I'm the only thing I might reply is I'll say it at the end, but like, I would go to their profile, find something that you can genuinely compliment about that person and send them the DM. Just Just be like, yo, I saw your comment, checked out your page. I I fucking love your taste in music. I I love your sense of fashion. I I love your, whatever it is that you can pick up on theirs because they picked up something on you on social media. We're able to compliment it. Chances are you could probably pick up something there. And then you reply to the comment with like, you have no idea how much is meant check your DM. And immediately if I'm a fan and I left a supportive comment and you took the extra 30 seconds to check out my page and send me something genuine, you probably already took me from curious to super fan. I'll I'll fucking do whatever you want. So

So like, once again, like it's the value of like, they took the time to understand your content. That's That's the first thing I would do. And And then eventually it gets to the point that you can't do that. You You can't keep going to people's profile, checking it out. Also Also don't blow smoke up people's like ass. If If you don't like their sense of style, don't tell them you like their sense of style. Like Like there's no need to lie in doing that, but but hopefully everybody can find something positive to say about somebody else. Um, Um, and then if you're getting to the point that you can't do that side, typically to me, that's where you start thinking about the many chat and the group. Once Once you can't spend that time, cause then you spend that time on the people that are choosing to give the data. Cause now you've outgrown, Oh, I don't have time to get back to everybody. So So I'm going to figure out who does care enough to give me their data. And And now instead I'm going to compliment and shine those people. And care enough to give me their data. And now instead I'm going to compliment and shine those people. And then you just keep going down that path.

I just feel like a lot of artists like think of, you know, I'm the artist. I'm the one that's supposed to have the fans. Why do I need to go be fans fans of other people? I'm not doing that Henry. Yeah. That's like, I'm not complimenting these peon fans. So So good though. And And I all the way agree.

And they love to be mysterious. Oh, you should be able to get in touch with me.

I don't reply to any comments.

don't do it on every platform. Like Mike's a great example. I'm still not even sure he has logins to his Tik TOK or his YouTube or stuff like, like, but he uses Instagram as like my DMS. I will probably respond to you. And I do probably see, but but like my time and like everything I'm doing outside of that is the only Steve's, but but like he does pick one thing that like you try to keep up with. Um, Um, but I see too many artists try to build community and trust in the replies on Instagram and being like, Oh, I'm going to reply to every comment. So So like, that's how I'm building my trust, but but you're building your trust with the 3% of fans that saw it and the fraction of those who commented. Yeah. So like, that's not, that's not the place to build that trust in community. But But the first time to your question, that first time, if you got the time start there before you ask them to give you the email or phone number.

Yeah.

Tim, what is your most controversial?

What, what, what would, what would you guys have answered to that one? No, Tim, this is rapid. This

This is rapid, Tim. We'll We'll never know. We got it. We got to keep our mystery. We're keeping them on track. Henry. I I got you, bro. not letting Tim do that. Not during the rapid fire rampage, bro. This is your, this is your segment. Thanks Thanks man. Fall back, Tim. rapid fire rampage, bro. This is your, this is your segment. Thanks man. Fall back, Tim. See, and now he just went up to 9.5. 9.5. Excellent. Tim, what is your most controversial music industry opinion right now?

Honestly, it was probably the, I'm not a huge fan of the term independent artists.

Yeah.

Right now, I would say that. And And I mean, in the 2010s, I had a reputation for ruining hip hop by introducing white rappers. That That was pretty controversial and honestly, probably pretty true at that time.

He doesn't mean it, Mike. He He doesn't mean it. Asher, you too. You're You're welcome from Tim. Tim, pitch me on if grouped stopped existing right now, you couldn't replicate it. What What is the next company that you would build for artists right now? Pitch it to me.

Honestly, it's kind of being built right now. It's probably Playhouse. I'm I'm a huge fan of Playhouse. Playhouse.band if you go to them. I think experiences are going to become really important. So So as AI, I mean, already happened with the internet. The The internet thought we were going to bring, get brought together, made people feel more isolated, end up in echo chambers. Now AI gets thrown in. You don't know what to trust. I I think in -person experiences, physical things like that are going to be more and more important, knowing who to trust, being there in person. And And I love the idea of experiencing music in somebody's backyard, at the coffee shop. Being able to do these experiences that create really cool moments, fucking awesome, rather than just going to a stadium and watching it. So So personally, I really think any type of startup that's around, how do I make this feel unique and cool is somewhere that I would definitely go. Yeah.

Yeah. I back that.

I'm familiar with Playhouse and I love what they're doing for sure. sure. Like I've seen a few artists like announced some crazy, unique, you know, kind of like experiential things that, um, I'm a big fan of.

And hit us up as you're building that so we can get in on the ground floor. Anyway, Anyway, last one of the short answer. I'll do the intro to their team. Like he's not building it. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, last one of the short answer. What is is your favorite curse word?

Shit.

That's mine.

mine. Finally, dude, I haven't had a backer on shit in a lot of episodes, We know so many fucks in a row. talk about it every time. Tim gets it, man. I probably

probably say fuck a fair amount, but like to me so often, especially when people say it, it's like, there's just something that like, I'm like, are you mad at me? Ah, shit. Like, yeah, you could say that in any way. I don't really know ways to use shit and like insult someone. You're a piece of shit. Maybe.

Well, it's just versatile. That's the verse. It's the versatility of it. That just, I'm a big fan of. And we all do it. That's That's true. There you go. Um, next section is the, this or that Tim, and I'm going to give you two choices. You You just need to pick one of them. Starting with reach or retention retention. 100 100,000 followers or 100 real fans? 100

100 real fans.

Email list or group chat? Email

Email list.

Tastemaker blog or the algorithm? Probably

Probably the algorithm.

Sign the artist or build the tool? Build

Build the tool. Ranch

Ranch or blue cheese? Branch.

Branch. Books

Books or podcasts?

Podcasts. Slow

Slow grind or overnight success? Slow

Slow grind. Most

Most people can't stand you or nobody's ever heard of you?

Nobody's ever heard of me for sure.

And finally, become a full -time mumble rapper or leave the music industry forever?

Become a full -time mumble rapper. Let's

Let's go. Lil Tim.

I'll join. I'll join. Lil Timmy. I'll join Only Tim's. I'm joining Only Tim's.

Only Tim's is nice. It's

It's kind of nice.

Yeah.

Last section is the word association. Tim, Tim, I'm going to say one word. I just need you to give me the first word that you think of right off the top of your head. You're You're not judged on your answer. You're only judged on speed. Here Here we go. Starting Starting with music.

Beautiful. Super

Super fan. Hard

Hard to get. Hard. Queso.

Queso. Delicious.

Delicious.

Grammy. Fuck.

Fuck. Fuck

Fuck them. Next Next one should be interesting. Spotify. Spotify. Fine.

Fine. Okay.

Okay. Retention.

Important. Important.

These next two should be interesting. Live Live Nation.

Monopoly. Patreon.

Patreon. Great.

Great. Politics.

Politics.

Polarizing. Community.

Community. Trust.

Trust.

Cold. Hot.

Hot. Warm.

Warm. Cold. He He burned hot too early. Conversion. Conversion. Conversion. Action.

Action. Only.

Only. Fans. Fans. Grouped.

Yeah. Check Check it out.

I don't want to

associate a word with that one.

Check it out. It's great. Amazing. What an episode. What an episode. Seriously. Wow. Wow. Another one, man. Like we're outdoing ourselves. We're cooking.

Because I mean, I'm getting these guests and I'm like, yeah, this is going to be pretty good for sure. And And then it's just amazing.

Over deliver. I mean, that's part of his thesis is to over deliver. So So we just do it. We just just did. Absolutely. We definitely did. Yeah. As always, man, we're here each and every week.

Until next time, what are we doing? You

You guys are the best.

You're the best, You're the best. No, No, you are. No. Okay. We We are. We We are. Us. Us

Us three. Once again, if they don't have the group or anything else set up right now, if you made it this far, like, comment, subscribe, go over to Instagram, follow them there, follow both their individual accounts, do do everything else right now. If you made it this far, that that means if you got any value from this, even if it was the stupid shit I said, it's because of these two. Go Go follow them.

Go support them. Until next time, what are we doing?

Getting out of here. Getting the fuck out of here.