How to Make It in the New Music Business ft. Ari Herstand

When I started Ari's Take as a blog back in 2012, the quote unquote Bible of the music industry before my book came along was written by a lawyer and 30 years old. There's no empathy in that book. We are in an era of information overload right now. It can be the greatest time in the history of the music industry for some, and it can be the worst time for others. Do you think social media has made it easier to make it? There is more noise now than ever. There's 170,000 songs uploaded every single day. There is only one way to fail in music, and that is to give up. On this episode of the One More Time podcast, we sit down with the guy who literally wrote the book on navigating the music business. Ari Herstand started helping educate artists over a decade ago because there just literally was no information about this. s*** And the information that was out there was not written by artists, so what the hell do they know?

Fast forward to today, we are in an era of information overload where everyone in their mother is a guru and everyone's just preying on artists that are desperate to get small victories. Which is why you should only subscribe to channels with people who actually care about you, like the One More Time podcast. We got very real in this episode asking some of the tough questions like why does it seem like most artists are just out here failing? We talked about if you actually have to get super good at the internet to succeed in 2026, and why it makes way more sense to build a modern team around you and your music instead of waiting for some mythical manager to ride in on a white horse and save your career. Like, I don't know, it's not happening. So if you are actually serious about making it in the new music business, you should absolutely buy Ari's book. But before you do, tune into this episode, grab a notepad, do not cut it off until the very end, at which point you can start it one more time. Oh, bro. And now for the full conversation with Ari Herstand. This is a full circle moment, my friend.

It is. We have Ari Herstand on the podcast, Henry. Let's go. We didn't think it was possible. We manifested this shit. And here we are. Let's go. Ari Herstand, Welcome to the podcast, man. Hey, thanks so much for having me. How are you? Cool to be here. I'm good. I'm great. Yeah, busy as always, but keeping it exciting. And yeah, everything's doing doing good. For sure. So, you know, obviously Henry was alluding to before we got started that like both of us have consumed how to make it in the new music business as we were trying to figure this shit out. Hopefully, all of our audience has consumed one of the editions. We're on the third edition as of uh 2023. Um, you know, I just want to get this out of the way. Like, how do you define making it? Right? Cause I feel like in the title, it suggests that, you know, should you read this this book, yeah, you will figure out how to quote unquote make it. And I think everyone's definition of what that means is a little different. So I wanted to get you know straight from the horse's mouth.

Exactly. What is your definition? No, and that's a great question. I that is the question that I ask every guest that comes on my podcast. That's the last question I asked because it is so personal, and now with 200 some guests that I've had, I've had 200 some different answers, which is so exciting. But how I define it, uh, my my definition of making it uh in the new music business is uh making a living, supporting the kind of lifestyle that I want to live doing what I love. That's it. It's pretty simple and straightforward for me. So beautiful. You don't have to work a nine to five. You get to make music and and live. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's like, you know, to to make a living on your creative talents. Uh, I would say that that that is making it for any creative, uh, no matter what field you're in, um, that's kind of the goal, you know. Um, there's a million different ways to make that happen. Of course, we know there's not one pathway to a successful career in the new music business. Uh there are as many pathways to success as there are musicians in the new music business.

It's it's just, you know, it's it's incredibly personalized to every person. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Uh, everyone has uh different goals and intentions. And that's the thing. It's just like, you know, no one can define success for you. Success is extremely personal. And if anyone tries to define success for you uh without knowing who you are, without knowing your goals and intentions, without knowing uh what you're about, or what you believe in what you want, or even what you're good at or what you're not good at, tell them to get out of there. They don't know what they're talking about. Because you know, no one can know, yeah, run. It's just like that's the thing. It's like so many people think that they know what you need and what you want, and that's because they are for some reason very sure of themselves, and maybe they heard one person say something or another at one point, or you know, but that's the thing, is just like we had a really interesting time in in the music industry. It's it it can be the greatest time in the history of the music industry for some, and it can be the worst time in the history of the music industry for others.

And it's just kind of what you make of it right now. It's like, yes, we are this, there's this open industry where it is theoretically democratized because of the internet, which then leaves an opening for people who are good at the internet, but then for those who brilliant artists who are not so good at the internet, it is a much more challenging time to exist in the industry. Yeah. So do you think that the problem with a lot of the music edu, because you're like the pioneer of the music education space, I feel like. Or you're one of the pioneers. I'll go with that. Okay, there we go. Thank you. Okay. and I think with that, you know, with great power comes great responsibility, right? So I think do you think that there is a lot of, you know, music educators on the internet that are kind of coming at it from a place of you must do this, right? You know, kind of suggesting they should take this certain path without knowing what the fuck someone's goals are. You gonna talk about that being so personal.

I feel like that's that's like a thing that we even yeah, sometimes when we get all preachy and we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Actually, you don't have to do anything we say. None of this matters if you don't want to tour, if you don't want to sell merch, if you don't want to build fan bases, right? Like if you want to take another path, that's all of the things that we just said are completely fucking irrelevant. So is is that like a problem you see? Yeah, I I think the you know, there are a lot of uh a lot of educators now uh in the music space on the internet. You know, when I started Ari's take as a blog back in 2012, uh I was the only working musician writing about how I was making it work and how it was, you know, the industry was functioning. And that was based initially on personal experiences because uh there was no information out there. The only other blogs out there that were giving advice to working musicians were written by companies looking to gain customers. There was nobody sharing this information, you know.

And so, like, I uh I started Ari's Take because I was making a living as an independent DIY artist on my own, touring successfully, getting songs, placed on TV shows, charting, doing all of this, no manager, no record label, no booking agent. Like I was booking all the own shows. And I was getting asked how to do it, and and you know, I would get back to everybody and word spread. If you have questions about the music business, go ask Ari. And soon enough, I just I couldn't get back to everybody. And so I then just well, but even before the book, I started the blog because I was just like, yeah, I was just like, all right, I'm gonna just put up everything, all the things I'm getting asked about, I'm gonna put up there so when people ask me these questions, I'm gonna go point to it and be like, all right, actually, I wrote about it It's over here. You know, the blog took off in a way that I never really expected. I literally just put it up there. There wasn't a business model behind it. There wasn't a um, you know, I wasn't making any money on it. That wasn't the intention.

It was literally to share the information. Uh, I believe that I I don't believe in competition in the in the music industry. I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. I believe we're in this crazy music industry together. And I I didn't like that no one was sharing this information. So I'm just like, all right, I'm gonna share what I know. I'm gonna interview and talk to as many people that will talk to me who are doing things successfully at whatever level, I'm gonna share that information. And yeah, then that naturally evolved into, you know, more writing gigs, a book, all that stuff. You know, fast forward to today, and there are a ton of people talking about how, you know, things are working and how they're doing it. And I think the difference now is that there are a lot of people that are coming at it, I guess, from maybe a place of um of business first, or they're they're coming at this from uh an intention of let me build a business around uh this practice, and they're like reverse engineering that they're like, I want to make money teaching and telling musicians how to make a living. So let me figure out how to do that, and then they start to draw a line that way.

Um you know, no judgments. It's just like I came at it very differently. Like I came at it uh as a full-time working musician looking to just share the information and support the community. It wasn't a business model. Now, of course, it is a business model for me. Yes, now I have a music business education company, I have a podcast, I have an online school, I have a book, and and it, you know, I shifted my focus intentionally because I realized that uh well I saw the impact that the blog initially was having. I like my blog and and then the subsequent, you know, podcast and book and everything has had a much deeper impact, uh wider and deeper impact than I ever saw with my music. Now, I was running a successful music career, and I you know, I had fans and I was charting and I like, you know, making a living doing music, but the impact that I saw by sharing this information was on a completely different level. And so I was like, you know what?

This is needed and necessary. Uh I have the I'm at this like weird intersection where like I'm an artist, but I also like writing and I and I feel like my communication style. Uh I know how to talk like to musicians. I I am a musician, so I like, you know, a lot of the early advice columns were like written by lawyers or the books, you know, like the book, the quote unquote Bible of the music industry before my book came along, was written by a lawyer and it was 30 years old. Passman's, of course. Yeah. And like, you know, no shade to Passman. I have three editions of that book, but it's written by a lawyer. There's zero musicians' empathy in that book. There is like, you know, here's how to negotiate a contract. I'm like, cool, that's important. But like, I'm sorry, Mr. Passman, you don't know what it feels like to write a fucking song and then try to put that song out, and then no one cares about that song that you just spend, you know, so much of time, money, effort, passion, blood, sweat, tears in that, and you put that out. There's no empathy in that book.

It's very helpful and useful if you want to learn how, you know, the controlled composition clause used to work or whatever. Like, sure, that's important. But like, that there's no empathy. So, you know, all that to all that to say, yeah, they're like, you know, more education is great. I appreciate that there are a lot of people out there that are uh helping educate the community. But like you said, Ben, it can be confusing uh when you people might hear conflicting statements of what you are quote unquote supposed to do or not supposed to do. There's a lot of people on the internet, talking heads in this music education space, music business education space, who are very aggressive in their communication style and say, you gotta do this, and you're an idiot if you don't know how to do that, and what you know, and it's like it's effective in what they're looking to achieve, which is like getting people afraid of them and to like follow them and give them money, I guess. But like I think it can be detrimental uh because it's like they don't fucking know either.

Like yeah, but nobody knows. Nobody knows though. That is the dirty secret of the music industry, nobody knows. So, like, so the whole like conflicting information, it's like, yeah, because nobody actually fucking knows what they're doing. I mean, we've talked to people who won Grammys, platinum this, platinum that, and they admit, like on camera and of course, definitely off-camera, nobody knows what the fuck is going on here because it's constantly changing, and it's so it's so subjective, too. Yeah, if it if people if people knew what worked and how to make it work, we go back to this all the time. The major labels would never lose. They have the money, or anyone with a financial backing would not lose if we could pinpoint exactly what it took, and we could write this perfect business plan that was never going to fail. And they lose all the time. Everyone, I mean, everyone lose. It's ups and downs, and yeah, that's true. And exactly, and that's a thing. And and yes, and uh, you know, I've you can talk to anyone at any level of the industry, and like sure, people have track records, and some people I think the those that are succeeding are just the ones that have tenacity and grit, and are willing to try and fail a hundred times before they find a little win and and then start to succeed in a in a way.

Um, you know, I there are there are things that you can glean from a lot all this information. We are in an era of information overload right now. You know, all of the information exists. You can find the information. That's not an issue. The information is out there. Now, the information was not out there when I started Ari's take as a blog in 2012. Yeah. It just did not exist. So we are at the other end of the spectrum now where the information is everywhere. It's just what information should you take that is going to work for your career? And it it always goes back to what are your goals, you know. And it's like you have to set very clear cut specific goals. I call these, you know, it's not me, it's not my term, but we know them, you know, is like they're called SMART goals, of course, you know, specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, time-bound, smart goals. And, you know, you have to set these goals, give yourself a time frame and make it specific, and then you can reverse engineer that.

And then so if you set one goal and it lets like use an example of like, all right, you know, my goal is I want to get a million streams on Spotify on this one song within four months. Okay, now then if that's my goal, I can reverse engineer that, and then I can take the information of like, well, this person teaches how to run ads, all right. So let me learn how to run ads. There's some playlisting thing over here that may or may not work, but let's try that, and then there's this, and then there's TikTok, and da, da, da, da, da. if your goal is I want to sell out this 500 cap venue in my hometown in six months, all of that other stuff is completely irrelevant. You can't listen to all of those people that are teaching you how to get streams on Spotify if your goal is to sell out a hometown venue. So then you have to go to that route and like reverse engineer that goal. And that's a completely different method of how you're going to fill a venue in your hometown. So you just have to know what your goals are, and then you find information that helps you achieve each one of those specific goals. I would say one of the most common threads in every single interview that we do, it literally all boils back down to self-awareness.

Because these people that are getting overloaded with all the information, it's like if you knew exactly what you were trying to do and you knew what your goals were, you're not getting overloaded. It's easy to kind of ignore the stuff that you know doesn't apply to you. But if you're laser focused on something and you can only consume the information that's gonna help you achieve your goals, I mean, guys, we we just gotta figure out what we're doing here. And it becomes a lot clearer. Yeah, but I think something that you've talked about that is the hard part about this for artists. Again, I'm not an artist, but what I've seen from our community is that like they want to just make it, speaking of make it, they want to make it in the music business no matter what borderline. If you told them, like, hey, you should like, I think sync is where you could really shine. How do I sign up? Sign me up for sync. I'll be I'll go like so. That's what I think the issue is is that they want it so bad because like we're all in this because we want it so bad. Artists are emotional people, you know. So that's what I think is the hard part. Well, and that's the danger in like, you know, speaking to now like colleagues in the music business education space. Uh you gotta be like very careful about how you're communicating and the message you're communicating to artists because artists are emotional.

It is, it can be uh artists can get manipulated uh easier than I would say uh people that aren't in the creative arts aren't pouring their heart and soul into something and putting it out there to be judged, you know. And so, like what I struggle with is seeing those out there who have learned how to manipulate artists into paying them money for whatever it is, and they keep doing that knowing that they're not actually serving them, they're not delivering on the value, they're not actually giving them the value that they're they are paying them for. And that is where it's tough, and that's where it's challenging. And and you know, if someone sure, you know, people do need to get paid for their their work, of course. And I uh over the course of my career as like a journalist, writer, all of that stuff.

Like, I have called out a lot of these bad actors in the industry over the years, you know, people, these companies that manipulate artists uh into giving them a lot of money and then they ghost them, they disappear, or then they chastise them or talk down to them. And you know, there's a lot of predators in the industry. There's a lot of people who successfully know how to prey on artists, not least of which those scams that go around uh Instagram and resurface every once in a while that try to get songwriters to write a custom song for their kids' birthday party. I don't know if you guys have heard about this shit, but it's like, oh man, this is a wild one. And and any songwriter listening, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. This all right, let me let me break this down. Take it down. Because this sounds crazy. This has been going on for for years. And you know, any songwriter listening to this, most likely they've been hit up on uh on Instagram. So what happens is someone slides in their DMs on Instagram or TikTok. They now they're doing it there, and they're like, Hey, I love your songs, I love your music. Would you uh be open to writing a custom song for my son's birthday party?

And they go back and forth, like, oh, that sounds great. You know, they negotiate, they talk rate and whatever. And so maybe they'll say, Yeah, I'll do it for 500 bucks. They said, Okay, yeah, that sounds good. Or maybe what about 450? Like, okay, fine, I can do it for 450. Here's the turnaround time. They send them a list of all the things that their their son really loves, and and they're like, Okay, you know, the birthday party is December 15th, and so maybe we can get it. They're like going back and forth like it's a real opportunity, a real gig. And then uh they're, you know, so like, all right, I'll send you the money. Um, and then they send them uh, you know, if it's 450 bucks, they send them a wire, of course, for $4,500. And they're like, hey, I actually over uh my assistant sent you money, they added an extra zero by accident. Can you send me back the difference? Uh, you know, it's it's you we sent you $4,500, and it was meant to be $450. So send us back the difference. Look in your bank account, and you'll look in your bank account and you'll see a pending amount of $4,500. I see, you send them back, you know, you send them back $3,000, whatever.

And then as soon as you send it back, you realize that that pending incoming payment doesn't go through because then they cancel it before it actually actually hits the account. And now the musician is out, uh, you know, thousands of dollars and they've been scammed. And this unfortunately is a common, common thing, a common scam that is that is happening, has been happening for years. Shit. Didn't know about that one. What a music industry specific version of like because that's like a classic one, I feel like, right? Like the send me money back, oops, oopsie daisy. Yeah, but you've got it in prints. That's been going on since then. Yeah, that's like shit my mom gets hit with all the time. But you have a songwriter in this scenario who's like being like, oh my god, someone finally recognized the greatness of my writing. I know I'm a great writer. This per I'll do whatever they want. Like, for their kid's birthday. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna make this kid's fucking day, dude. Oh my god, wow. Yeah, that's rough. Holy shit.

I know. It's rough out there for indie artists because it's like, right, you want it, you know, you need you want the gig, uh, you want to be recognized for your work. Someone is recognizing you. They start, and that's the thing, it's just like, you know, I I still I'm I get hit up daily uh in DMs and emails and whatever, and like these I don't know if I want to call them scammers, but like predators or whatever. Grifters. They will always, yeah, they'll always start off with a compliment, and but it's usually it's copy and paste. It's just like you know, hi, all caps, Ari Herstand, or like you know, whether the band Brassroots, district, like hi, you know, and it's just like I really love your song, fill in the blank, and uh, and then it's uh it's really great, and I uh like generic, generic, generic compliment. And then here's the pitch. Pay me for you know, and I'll help you. But you know, you could have growth on Instagram, and you could have, you know, you should grow here and grow there, and and you're not doing a good job of this, and you're not doing a good job of that.

And most artists be like, damn, you're right. I'm not, I'm not, I don't have millions of followers. Like, shit, maybe I should pay this person thousands of dollars a month or whatever. So yeah. Oh my gosh. So stuff out there. I hope you guys are enjoying the conversation. I want to take a quick moment to tell you about our pals at DistroKid. You can't get your music onto streaming platforms without a distributor, and DistroKid is an excellent choice to handle that for you. For the ridiculously low price of $23, you can upload unlimited music for an entire year. That is less than $2 a month. I tripped on $2 walking down the street earlier. They have countless features to help you out on your musical journey. One of my favorites is splits. Instead of my collaborators hitting me up all the time saying, Where's my fucking money? I can input everyone's percentage when I upload the music, and DistroKid will handle it. I've personally used DistroKid for many years and can genuinely recommend them as a great tool to get your music out into the world. And if you sign up at OMTDistro.com, you'll get 30% off an already insanely low price. This is absolute peanuts for unlimited uploads yearly.

We wish you the best with your creating. Let's get back to it. I I don't want to be negative, but I just, you know, looking at this realistically, there are there's a lot, there's a hefty majority of artists that don't make it in the music business. Most of them. Is that safe to say? I mean just statistically speaking. It goes back to the definition of what making it is. Your definition. Sure, your definition. I'm using your definition. Okay, so making a living using their creative talents. Correct. Statistically speaking, most that try do not get to that point. Is that are we on the same page here? Or Sure. uh I'll run with your premise. Okay. I mean, I think you don't agree? I would have thought it was like 90%. I thought it was like, fuck yeah, Ben. Obviously, you idiot. Stupid question. Move on. No, I I uh I don't agree because um there is no what's the time limit that you're putting on this, you know, like uh something else that I cover a lot Ever, honestly until they give up. Yeah.

You mean when you die or give up? Sure, yeah. But yeah. No, no, but but for real though, like there are and I cover this a lot. There's so many artists that actually, you know, quote unquote make it later in life. Like actually, one of my former Artist academy students, uh, Danielle Ponder, uh, she like blew up at 40. She had her first uh single that like in and like really caught um at age 40. She was um, you know, she was a um a public defender for many years. She had a day job and doing that. And and here here's the other thing. I actually just had um the band Couch on the podcast. And uh love this band. They're based out of Boston. Um they're they're like a soul pop funk band. Um, you know, there's seven of them in there. Whoa. Uh if you look at any of their numbers online, or you go to their shows. I mean, they're playing uh in Boston, they're playing a 35, they're on tour right now.

They're playing, you know, thousands of people a night. They they're you know, they're playing the Fonda out here in LA, 1200 tickets. Uh they're playing a venue in Boston, 3,500 tickets, they're playing Brooklyn Steel in New York, 2500 tickets. It's Like, that's fucking great, right? That's like at a level where you look at that and we're like they've made it. Like anyone who looks at that is like they have made it, you know. And they're like, oh no, no, we all have other jobs that we have to support our career. It's because there's seven of them, bro. They gotta split that pie. That's true. They'd have to be doing arenas to make to make it, you know. That's you know, that's the other thing. It's just like, but but then would you say that they have failed or that they haven't made it because they're selling thousands and thousands of tickets on this tour. They will have sold tens of thousands of tickets when this tour is done. They're making tens of thousands, maybe even a hundred thousand dollars plus on streaming royalties a year, uh, more than that. And you know, by all these metrics, they got millions and millions of streams and all of this, like anyone that didn't know their personal financial situation, be like, they have made it, you know.

And then other people, I I know a lot of artists, and the reason my hesitation here, which it seems like an obvious answer an obvious question, but it's not. I know so many artists that are making a living with their creative talents that have less than a thousand monthly listeners on Spotify. You look at them, they're like, Oh, they're a failure. And it's like, well, no, they are teaching lessons, they are uh gigging the local circuit, doing really, really well, they uh are doing well in sync, they're doing you know, uh X, Y, and Z, and they're making a living. So it's like again, it's hard to define that. And and I and I can say this from data, you know, and the reason that you ask, like when you ask, uh, we send surveys out to our audience. Now we have tens of thousands of people in our community in our audience, and we send surveys out to them asking exactly this question: how much of your income is from music, and are you making a living from music? And about half of our audience says that they are making their soul living from music and from their creative talents.

And so, you know, and then I break it down further and I get more specific, more specific, like, what does that mean? Like, how are you doing this? Let me talk to you about that. And again, people are piecing it together, you know? And so you're totally right. There are Grammy winners with day jobs. Okay, but would you call them a failure because they won a Grammy and they have to work a day job? I wouldn't. I would say that, you know, because maybe the lifestyle that they want to live, uh, they need $10,000 a month to survive. Could they survive? Could could they live on $3,000 a month with 100% of their income coming from music? Sure. So just because their lifestyle is at a different level, now we've drawn a hard line saying you're a failure because you want to live at a $10,000 a month or revenue stream, income stream, whereas you could be living at a $3,000 a month income stream if you really want to now you've made it. It's so arbitrary.

Well, damn, now he's making me sound like I'm calling them failure. He's like, you call them failures, Ben. No, I'm kidding. But so my question was gonna more be around like what, like, if you were to attribute kind of like one reason why a majority of artists do fail, is there something that you kind of like point to? Because you seem to have a lot of data on this shit, right? So it's like, why are why are artists failing? My definition of failure is giving up. Sure. Why are they giving up? So yes. So that that is a very clear-cut uh way to say, okay, there is only one way to fail in music, and that is to give up. Sure. So the, you know, now the data that I have are from my community of working professionals. Granted, there's tens of thousands of them in this community, but the ones that are answering my survey have not given up, you know. Yeah, and and so they're like, I don't have that.

I haven't like sought out like how many people started with music and then gave up and whatever. Now if you were to guess. why do people Yeah, I mean, well, I the the thing is is like like I was in a band in high school. We continued a couple years after high school into college and stuff like that, and my collaborators in this band were not as serious as I was about music. They didn't want to to tour at like and sleep on beer stained couches, and they didn't want to get into a van and drive around, and they didn't want to like do the grind, and they you know had different intentions in life and wanted to, you know, whatever. So the band broke up and they all quit music. Now, would I like would we define them as like failures? I wouldn't say they even started a music career.

I would say that they started as a hobbyist doing music. I think a lot of people start as hobbyists, and a lot of people like playing in bands, and a lot of people like music. I, you know, it's but but let's just start with the premise. Just you know, uh, I know I'm not making this easy for you. I'll answer your question. it's okay, you're challenging me. I will I will answer the question, but let me let's just let's just you know agree on the premise, which is of those that have decided they want to be a professional musician, yes, and they have made this intention, those that then give up. Sure. Why are they unsuccessful? Yes, why are exactly why are they giving up? Yeah, that is a fair question. Uh and a lot of people do give up. Um, I don't have that data on how many people have started uh, you know, tried to pursue a professional music career and then gave up. Um but I know a lot of people and I've talked to a lot of people who have, and what have what made them give up.

I mean there's uh so many reasons, but a few of them I would say um is burnout is a big one. Um, you know, burnout because uh you put you put so much effort, time and money into the craft into the art, and you don't get that in return. You don't get you don't receive that same level of of um uh value that you put out back in in a form that resonates that can sustain you. That's honestly probably the biggest reason that people give up is is burnout. Yes, and then it's got other ones like that's probably the biggest one. And and then I would say maybe the second one is is uh life happens, and they have different life their goals. They they just change um I would say the other big one is just people change their intention of what they want from life. Maybe they want to start a family, maybe that's not conducive to a touring musician lifestyle or or whatnot.

Maybe they want to live in a certain city or burb or wherever, and it costs a certain amount, and their family life demands a certain revenue stream that music is not providing at that moment, and they have family pressures to pursue a different lifestyle, a different career path. Yeah. Those are, you know, yeah. So it's kind of interesting, man, because nowhere in even like dancing around the answer, did you suggest that like it's because the music isn't good enough? It's because you didn't post enough content. Like it really is that like A, you got burnt out because this shit does take fuck tons of time and and effort and resilience and embarrassment, posting videos, uploading songs into the abyss and no one's listening, right? It takes a lot of of effort and thick skin. And then the second reason is to your point, life happens, and some of that, yes, like everything's technically like under our control and how we can kind of navigate life, but at the end of the day, life does happen. And you know, if you did just have a family and you want to be there for your kids and you were seeing some success touring, well, there goes that, right?

If you wanted to be a present father in that moment, right? Um, so it's just interesting that he didn't point to like, well, most people just aren't good enough, or like, you know, the music doesn't resonate. Like, I don't know. I mean, I thought maybe that that could be, I don't know. I I just was wondering if that would be something you'd say. Well, I mean, music is subjective. Um, you know, there I the reason that I rarely put it and make it about the music is I I think that's just kind of a an understand, like that's just a that's an accepted understanding that uh sure the music needs to be at a competitive level, but like who am I to say that your music is good or not? You know, like there is some music out there that I do not get. I can't stand it. I can't stand listening to it, but other people love it, you know, and that's the beautiful thing about art is some people are gonna get it and some people aren't gonna get it.

It doesn't, you know, it's like there are, and I think we're in this this uh era of the industry where it is on display more than ever. How many songs, videos, uh influencers have gone viral on TikTok for a shitty song? A song that didn't have anything outside the 15 seconds that went viral. Now, do they have careers after that? Most of them do not. You know, uh it's it's you need some depth and you need something to sustain it. How many of them went, you know, went viral because of gimmicks? How many of them, again, getting back to the like what is success, what is failure? Like, how many of them got offered record deals because they went viral on TikTok in 2020, 2021, 2022? They got a million dollar advance or whatever. And three years later, they're dropped, they have no fans, they're canceling tours, they can't sell any tickets, and they don't have a career. They made a million bucks because they went viral one time, you know.

You know, that's cool, I guess. Good for them. They like worked the algorithm, they worked the internet, they were good at the internet for a second. But like, you know, it's it's really we can't really gauge someone's success or failure unless one, unless they give up for good. Or two, there's a lot of time that you're looking at someone's career. Cause like there are a lot of artists that got major record deals because they went viral. And in the moment, everyone around them, their friends, their family, their colleagues, their uh everybody would say, wow, you are an incredible success story. You went viral, you worked the internet, you got a major record deal, you got a million dollars in the bank right now. Wow, you are successful. Fast forward five years. I would I would say to your point, Ben, the majority of those people fail. Majority of those people give up.

Wow. Because it's really hard to go from that to go from holy shit, I got a million dollar advance from a major record deal. I'm the hottest shit in the world right now, to nobody cares about me. I can't even get a hundred people to my local hometown show, let alone tour. Uh, and I'm not and and no one cares about me, and and the label owns all my music. I can't actually write a song, and uh my no one cares about my music and my records anymore. That's really hard to sustain. A lot of them do give up. I feel for those people, bro. That just made me so sad. Like you just like describing that, you know, up and then down. I'm curious if you think that like 15 seconds of a song going mega viral for a relatively unknown artist trying to make it, it could be a good thing, you know, or do you like would you recommend, you know, more of a slow grind and build true fans like slower? If your goal is to have a lifelong uh music career, if your goal is to sustain as an artist, to be a career artist, um if that is your goal, then you have to think long term from the beginning.

Uh and and when you really break that down and reverse engineer all of that, you don't want to go viral for the wrong reasons. Like there's a lot of people that went viral because they look good or they're a good dancer, or you know, they uh did some gimmicky trend and it got millions of views and whatever. Like that's that's not a reason to go viral. And especially the people that then find you from that and start following you. If you don't keep doing that content, that style of content, then it's gonna work against you. And you if you go viral for the wrong reasons, not only will all of those followers be confused at all of your future content, if the content that then you make is not just like what went viral, they it the algorithm's gonna crush it. It's not gonna have any reach.

Uh, we see this all the time. where artists, musicians, they go viral for some bullshit reason, whatever, they followed a trend or whatever. And then whenever they post about their music or do anything musical, nobody cares about it. And it has no reach, no views, whatever. So what I will say is yes, lay a strong foundation. Develop as an artist, put like understand who you are as an artist. You know, you have to like if you're going to be a public facing artist, have everything filtered through that artist lens. It just is you have to have a point of view. And, you know, some people in a cold, hard marketing sense would call that branding. But others will just say that fans want to follow artists that stand for something, that have a point of view. Fans aren't going to become a fan of an artist because they like 15 seconds of a song.

Like they might not even know what that song is or what the artist is. And even in the playlist era, even if they hear a song on a playlist or anything like that, they're even it like that's why you can't ever gauge somebody's success uh or level of fandom based on the number of streams they have or the month number of monthly listeners they have. Who knows if that song got placed on a playlist and they got, you know, that playlist blew up or the algorithm took it and they got millions of plays on this one playlist. They have millions of monthly listeners, but they have no fans and they can't sell any tickets. That's either one because people are just passively listening to their music and they have no fans, so they get pulled off that playlist, the algorithm flips, they have no career. But also on social media, if it's something went viral on TikTok or Reels, and and like that person, that potential new fan goes to your profile and starts to dig a little bit, and they're going to choose to follow you, or they're gonna choose to become a fan, if they believe in who you are as an artist and what you stand for and what you're saying, not just with your music, but just all around. And so, yeah, there's a lot of work that goes into understanding yourself as an artist and having a point of view.

And then once you understand that, you can put out content. And sure, you there are tactics you can do to try to reach a new audience and a cold audience and bring them in. And yes, going, you know, grabbing onto the algorithmic wave in some capacity can be tremendously helpful. I'm not gonna say it it's not. It absolutely can. It can be life-changing for people, but you wanna go viral for the right reasons in a way that is sustainable. So just do you think overall, though, that social media has made it easier to make it in the music business, or is it detrimental? My hesitation is I talk to artists who say who who are having a very successful career right now in the industry who made it on the internet. They grew because of the internet, and they they know how to work the internet, and they will say it is the best time in the history of the music industry to be an artist, especially an independent artist. I can go direct to my fans.

There are no gatekeepers, I don't need to be anointed by anyone at a record label telling giving me permission to have a career. I can do it on my own, I can get my music onto DSPs, I can get my music uh out there, I can reach people with my message and my music because of the internet. On the flip side, there is more noise now than ever. I think the new figure is like, you know, there's 170,000 songs uploaded every single day to DSPs. It used to be 100,000. Oh my God. I've heard so many numbers. We should do a montage of the episodes where like when we first started, it was like 20,000 songs are uploaded daily. 75, 100, 100, 170 now. That's true. It's because of the influx of AI. It's now the majority of, you know, the Deezer just came out with a report report saying uh, I think they said, like, yeah, 70,000 songs uh are uploaded generative AI songs are uploaded daily to Deezer, uh, which means to all the DSPs, by their metrics and by their uh gauging. So there's so much noise.

You have to break through all that noise. And now you're not just competing with other human musicians, you're literally competing with generative AI music that can be created at a volume that we've never seen before, that is now flooding the DSPs and literally taking away market share in uh in eardrums, in listenership, but also revenue from human artists. So you have to break through all of that noise. And it is can be tremendously challenging for artists who are not good at the internet. So, like, you know, there are artists that we look back on, some of the most brilliant artists of all time. Do you think Prince or Michael Jackson would make it in this era today? I don't. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's like a uh a videographer and editing crew following them around. Dance videos though?

Like, come on, man. I mean, yeah, they can dance. I mean, but the thing is, you know, would Kurt Cobain make it in today's era? You think Kurt Cobain is doing some TikTok dances? You think he's following a fucking trend? Like, no way. I don't think Nirvana would have made it in in today's, you know, modern industry. So it's like, I think a lot of these brilliant artists, like in anyone, you think about your favorite artists of all time, you know, and you go back to that, uh, you know, would Jay-Z have made it in in today's modern industry? I don't think so. Uh, there are brilliant artists out there in the history of the industry that made it a certain way. And at the time it worked in that way. And at the time, what it was was there were a couple cheerleaders that thought they were worthy of a career and invested in them with development, with the resources, with money, with the label, with whatever. And they were they were able to make it in that time period that I don't think would have worked today.

On the flip side, those artists that I talked about before that are making it and succeeding today because they're really good at the internet. I don't think they would have made it pre-internet era because the kind of music, the style that they make, some of them maybe, but to be honest, like, you know, there are some really interesting, innovative bands out there. Uh, like I use this example, uh, Vulfpeck is uh, you know, I'm a big fan of those guys. I know them, they're friends. They're fantastic, great musicians, really, really great at what they do. I love them. Uh, but they're also really, really good at the internet. Do I think if they came out in the 90s or the 80s uh doing what they would do, that a record label would look at them and be like, yeah, this is it. They break every rule in the book. You know, it's like there is no real lead singer, there's no, like they're just like dopey average looking dudes. And it's just like it's not what it was in that era where uh, you know, where there was a playbook that the record labels follow as in this is what it takes for a band that we want to sign to make it.

So I think it goes both ways. But but do you think that like on the whole that artists need to be good at the internet to win today? I mean because I lean towards yes. I lean towards yes, man. Like I know there's these like one-offs where it's like, oh, you could just be a sync, you know, producer, but it's like I feel like even the people that are crushing on sync also might be good at the internet to like post videos that, you know, look, I made a trailer that should be for the Spider-Man movie, whatever. Like I feel like they even use the internet effectively. I don't know. I I lean towards like not all of them. I I know a lot of uh a lot of my colleagues and friends who are are you know making six or seven figures in sync licensing. A lot of them don't even have a presence on Instagram. But are they legacy? Are they legacy like sync folks? No, no, they're new. They're they're no, they're they're they're 30 somethings, you know, that are just like doing it behind the scenes. Uh they're writing to briefs, they have a few different sync projects, uh, and they're making a very solid living doing that without any kind of uh presence, and they're frankly very bad at the internet.

Um, there's then there's hope for these people out here. All right, I'm glad you said that like I just love the power of the internet, and I just love the idea that you can reach people with your music at your fingertips, right? We most of us are, you know, thankfully fortunate, you know, fortunate enough to have smartphones or have the access to the internet, right? Um, it's only becoming more ubiquitous, right? So for me, I just love it. Like, I just am like, oh my god, there's nothing stopping you guys. Like, let's go. Like, I look at it as like empowering. So then I think of like, if it's this empowering tool, I'm like, why would you not want to be good at it? Like, we obsess over trying to be good at it because again, we could be having the best fucking conversations in the world. But if like if we were bad at the internet, we spend so much fucking time coming up with YouTube titles and thumbnails, it's unreal. Like the amount of tinkering with fucking words and spacing, I mean, God, we spent three hours today coming up with like title options, like it's unreal. But uh, but it's because how else are we going to get these conversations that we think are important?

And if you're a musician, how are you gonna get the songs that you think are important and deserve to be heard and that could help people? Like, I just look at the internet as such like a uh like powerful, empowering tool, man. So that's why I just think like you should be good at it. I don't know. Yeah, no, I I it is a powerful tool. And and again, like I uh it can be really, really good for a certain type of artist. And I do like there are, you know, I started my music career at a really interesting time in the history of the music industry. I would say it was at right at the cusp of the old music industry was dying, the new music industry was beginning. You know, like I got started in an era where you didn't have to be good at the internet, and people were still getting signed based on their merits. And then I, you know, some bands, some of my favorite bands, one of my favorite bands of all time, uh, no one outside of Minneapolis really has ever heard because they never were able to release an album because they signed a major record deal. Uh, they made this brilliant album, and then the label shelved it.

And it and then they broke up because they shelved it and they couldn't release it. And I literally, this is one of my top 10 albums of all time that no one's ever heard. Wow. And I love this album. Wow. No joke. And so it's like wow. that to me was crushing that that existed in that era that there was like a couple assholes at this record label that it's like, you know what, we don't hear a hit or whatever, we're gonna shelve it and you were not gonna put it out, or we're not gonna put any more money into this. And they shelved it and we no one ever heard it, and I think it's a brilliant album. So, like the fact that we now have autonomy with to be able to put out our own music without the permission of those assholes at the label, I think it is. It can be uh exceptional time and a great time in the industry. But you know, to your point, Ben, when you say like, should artists, do artists need to be good at the internet. Um, I mean, for certain goals that they want to achieve, if they want to build fans and have a career like that where it is like more of a traditional music career where you have fans, you're touring, uh, you know, you have this more of a traditional career, um, and like fans are listening to your music online. Um, you're not like just a uh a playlist artist or whatever.

Um, then someone on your team needs to be good at the internet. Doesn't need to be the artist directly. No, uh, I mean, like, you know, there the the, I don't know if you guys know about the tactics that the major labels are using right now to blow up their artists, but let's hear them. Uh yeah, I mean, you know, like I want to hear this. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of artists uh that have broken out in the last year that are on major labels, and the way that they have broken out is because there are interns at these major labels that are creating hundreds of fan accounts. Yes, the fan accounts quote unquote fan accounts, they're you know, burner accounts, whatever you want to call them, and then they are flooding TikTok and Instagram with uh fan videos with videos of this artist. And and it looks like it's coming from a fan account, but really it's coming from the labels account, or it's not the label account, it's really coming from someone at the label who's created this new fan burner account.

And so they're flooding TikTok and Instagram because it's a numbers game, you know, and so if you have the resources and the people, personnel to be able to take more shots on goal, there's a higher likelihood that you're going to make one of those goals. You know, it's like it's like buying a lottery ticket. Artists, if you can only buy one lottery ticket a day, your chances of succeeding are really, really low. And that's like posting the video on TikTok once a day or whatever, you know. You know, even if you buy five lottery tickets a day by posting five videos on TikTok a day, sure. Maybe one will connect, maybe one will nobody knows. But if you have, if you can buy 500 a day, you have a much higher chance of succeeding. And that's what the labels are doing. They are posting 500 videos a day because they have 50 interns that are all posting 10 videos a day of this one of their priority artists and maybe two of those videos catch. And that's all it takes.

But then they're doing this every day. And so then you sign on to TikTok or Instagram Reels and like, holy shit, this artist is everywhere. They're constantly going viral. Is that individual artist the one posting all of this? No. You know, and it's a so it's just like it's not, it's not really a level playing ground, even though it might feel that way and seem that way. And a lot, some of these artists that, you know, might even be decent at the internet, they're not succeeding on the internet because of their own merits solely alone. Typically, there's a lot of money behind them. There's a lot of resources behind them. And so, you know, and there's a lot of smoke and mirrors happening, too. So, I mean, do you think that this is a viable strategy for indie artists that are unsigned? I mean, to like pay someone like cheap, cheap labor, wherever around the world? or make your own like, is this a strategy that you're like recommending that people try or uh it, you know, because I don't know, I'm like, damn, it's not like the majors have like, you know, they they they're not the only ones that could do that. So I'm like my light bulb's going off, like, yo, why the fuck wouldn't we try that?

Yes, if you have uh if you want to find, you know, 20 people who are friends family or interns or employees or whatever you want to call them and hire them to do this um and that you just kind of post your content and hope that it catches and you get a whole operation together absolutely and I think anyone can really do that and so that is definitely a pathway and you know because it's like we're I I would say that we're entering this new era of social media it's it's no longer social media it's influence media and it doesn't matter how many followers you have anymore it's not about that because the algorithm is so powerful we're seeing videos from accounts that have five followers go viral get hundreds of thousands of views that never happened 10 years ago and so because of that that's why this strategy works that's why you can create a new account today and go viral tomorrow with with five followers and so yes there is a tactic that that could work now will that tactic work in a year from now who knows we have no idea but the era that we were in in the early you know 2020s of the the initial TikTok era where the artist had to control it and the artist had to post everything and it had to be from the artist point of view I feel like that is coming to an end and what we're seeing is it's this uh influence media and it's kind of it's what you know the algorithm is just showing people what they think the user wants to see and what they're engaging with. And so if they engage with like live concert videos and they like that thing, they're just gonna send them more live concert video footage. And so if that's the audience that you're looking to to hit, maybe you're like an indie rock band or something like that, you pump out, you know, 50 of those videos a day with a different hook at the start of the video or whatever, and like sure, some of them might catch. I mean, of you any genre that that works for literally any genre.

The biggest album in the world right now is an orchestra album sung in 14 different languages. So it's like whatever genre, that's Rosalia. Um, okay, yeah. Yeah, the new Rosalia album. So it's like, you know, you it's just like any genre can connect uh if done in the right way. That's interesting. We've now heard social media be referred to as interest media, discovery media, and influence media. It's not social media, we can all agree on this. We're gonna have to agree on a new name because apparently social media is not getting the TikTokification of is what happened to it. Yeah, because they started with the for you page and whatnot. Yeah. So I I know you're kind of like the DIY lord, right? But um, like if an artist was trying to build out a team, like who do you recommend they bring on first? What should those roles be doing? Like, can you take because I think a lot of people think they need a team, and I think there's a lot of value in having a team, but I want to get your take on how should they do that the right way?

Yeah. Absolutely. Now, uh, yes, even though uh people refer to me, you know, right, as as DIY, and and uh I I I would say that that is a misnomer. I don't think anyone does it themselves. There is no such thing as as like truly do it yourself, DIY. Um, I just think the team looks different. And so like I kind of define DIY as just like you're not working with a label. Um, but I a team is tremendously important for every artist at any level, but the team can look very different than what the traditional team looks like. It's like you don't need an artist manager, a record label, a publisher, an attorney, you know, uh like the traditional roles that you'll find in all of those old textbooks are written by lawyers. Uh the team today can be your best friend, your boyfriend, your mom, your younger sister, and your best friend is really good at video, and they're really good at filming stuff, and they're they're experimenting, they're a short filmmaker, and they're really good at storytelling through video. And your boyfriend is really good at graphic design and photography, and then your little sister is really good at and and like lives on TikTok and is really good at doing that, and you know, your mom is really good at making phone calls and and emails and networking and meeting people.

That sounds like a great team to me, you know? And so it doesn't need to be traditional. Uh it's just who believes in what you're doing that wants to jump in for whatever needs to get done and whatever can uh and help you make that happen. And it's really just like being malleable and figuring out whatever your goals are and how to achieve them. But how would you pay all those people? Like, I mean, uh, or do you suggest, or do you suggest that artists try and find people that just want to be a part of what you got going on? Because I mean, all those people seem like they might just do it for free out of the uh, you know, off the strength. But like, how should they be compensating people? Because I think you know, you made a post uh about it was some LinkedIn post around the 20% management commission scam and how we should be 50-50 equity partners, and you had some choice words for that whole narrative, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I I did make a post uh against that uh uh narrative of somebody saying that uh it was it was some guy, I don't know, on LinkedIn, whatever people say shit on LinkedIn. But yes, it it irked me because they said this manager said that they want to be 50-50 equity partners with artists. Uh, I disagree with that model for many reasons. Uh for I mean, one reason uh the um they're not creating any of the intellectual property. Uh the artist is the artist should own all of that. There should no, there should not be equity, but also managers typically have lots of clients, and the artist is one of one. The artist has one career with managers, their clients come and go. If they have 50% equity ownership in every artist that they add, that's just like not fair to the artist because the manager could drop them or whatever, and now they own a piece of their career for in perpetuity, 50%. That's wild.

Um, but you know, and the other thing is is a reason the biggest reason of all, I think that I don't support that model, is because the artist is required to invest and put in 100% of the money into their career. That is what like, you know, what turned me off the most of that is that the manager, if the manager was putting in their own money, we're in a completely different conversation. And that's what I was gonna ask you, because that's what I but I feel like a lot of the new business, uh like new music business managers are doing a lot of that. Because even, bro, even I was managing a couple artists, and do you know how you know how much money I fucking spent like doing that at like a small level? So it's like, I mean, dude, like it's happening right now. There are, you know, I know it's happening. Uh, and of course, there's also different in profit sharing and equity. There's a big difference there.

Equity means ownership. Uh do I think that the manager should own 50% of every song that the art that the artist writes? Absolutely not. If they didn't write the song, you're not entitled to ownership, period. Do I think that they are entitled to uh equity in the records that they make? No. Uh could they get a piece of it for a certain amount of time? Absolutely. Uh, but if the art, if the manager is investing, like actually investing their own personal money, then that can be documented. And then there maybe can be a scenario where there's equity just like an investor invests in a startup company. Investors invest in a startup company and then they get equity. That is a different conversation. You know, this this manager uh or whomever it was that said uh they wanted you know 50% equity from the artist project was not investing any money. They were just saying I would just work my ass off.

And it's like, what do you think the artist is doing? The artist is working their ass off too, but also putting in all the money. Yeah. So, like, but but all that to say, I mean, I think getting to the the crux of your question is uh how do you pay all these people and what payment structure is fair and makes sense? It's all gonna be personalized. Now I think uh artists that have day jobs and have a revenue stream that's not making fun of their money, absolutely hire a staff. I think it it honestly it works on both ends of the spectrum. We're seeing this uh now, you know. Um, like Olivia Rodrigo just fired her, you know, management and and is taking it in-house, is hiring a staff. Uh, we saw that with Justin Bieber as well. Like these superstars, uh they are not working in the traditional model of a 20% manager. Um and they are now just hiring staff members. I think you can go and work on on every scale on every level of a career.

So if you're an emerging artist and you're not making much money from your music career right now, but you have some disposable income from your day job, absolutely hire a staff. Whatever that staff, maybe it's a manager, maybe, maybe they're a traditional manager. Sure, put them on salary, pay them, give them a versus deal, pay them, you know, uh $1,500 a month and versus 20% of your gross revenue. So whenever that flips to you're making, you know, more than uh, you know, whenever you're making more than um what is it? Like thank you, uh a month. He's a numbers guy. Yeah. Right. Uh then that flips. And then at the $7,500 mark, then now they're on a percentage. So that could work. Um, maybe it's, you know, 50% of net. Maybe it's like, okay, you look at profits, because that's the other challenge.

Even with the 20% model, to be honest, it's like if you have like the band couch, if you have seven members, the manager, if they're making 20% of that. Now, granted, Couch has in-house, their guitarist is their manager. But still, the manager would be making more money than every single fucking member dude. Exactly. It's insane. So that's why that model is challenging. And that's why some, you know, Vulfpeck is self-managed, Couch is self managed. Like a lot of these bands that you know have these members, they're self-managed. so there's there's I I don't think that the traditional model needs to be the law. I don't think like 20% is this of gross is this magic number. That's just how it's always been. I think it's what makes sense. So, like, you know, sure, maybe it is 50 50 of net profits. Uh, and maybe, or maybe it's just you hire a staff and everyone's on salary, or you're paying somebody a certain amount with bonuses at the end of the year, just like you're running a small business or something like that. So, you know, it's just how what do you need completed in your operation?

Do you need video shooting and editing? Maybe you want to put someone on retainer for a thousand bucks a month who's like, you know, young, hungry, 22 year old kid who's really good at this stuff, and a thousand dollars a month to them is a lot of money and they believe in it and they're down for it. You know, maybe you need a digital person who's an expert at running ads, and uh they're really good at kind of working the algorithm and all of that, and you pay them uh a thousand bucks a month, fifteen hundred bucks a month to do something like that to run all of that. I've also seen models where there are uh people who will it's like a mini one off label kind of deal where they will uh they will put all the money into marketing. So they will put up like 20,000 into marketing and they're for one song, and then the deal is that they will split everything that comes out of that 50-50 for that one song after they recoup their the the 20,000 that they put into marketing. I think people gotta get more creative with their business.

I mean, it's creatives are so creative, and but then they when they have to get into the business, I feel like they lose some of that creativity sometimes. There's so many different ways to do it, and you you know, yeah, and you every situation is personalized, like you said. So let's figure it out. But and I think that's what's the hardest part for even shit. I'm even just looking at it from me being a host of a music business podcast. It's like, bro, since everything is so personalized, it is tough for us to even like ask these questions and like get the answers because it's so nuanced and it is so like subjective to what it is that every single individual artist has going on and like what they're good at versus what they're not good at, what their financial situation is, like if they have a day job, if they come from family money, if they do have homies and girlfriends and moms that are good at shit that could help them and they'll do it for free. Like, there's just it's so it's overwhelming, bro. To be honest with you, this is why it comes back to what are your goals? Like, it doesn't have to be overwhelming.

It it is overwhelming for everyone who works in the industry. Absolutely every day, you could be spinning yourself into paralysis, which most people do. Yes. But if you identify your goals, and this is why it I like, I can't hit this point enough, and why I come back to this, because that is how you organize everything and figure out what you want and how to get there. If every six months you sit down, you pull out a sheet of paper, you pull out a Google Doc, and you write down here are five goals that I want to achieve in six months, and you write those down and you print it off and you put it up on your wall and you look at those goals like these are the five goals I want to achieve in the next six months. You then can reverse engineer every one of those goals and then hire the right people that will help you achieve those goals. And now you're marching on the path of achieving those very, very specific goals. The problem, and getting back to your question, like why do people fail and getting to the like because of burnout, it's really when you break that down even further, it's because everyone from all sides of their life, including podcasts and articles, they're reading blogs and like those who are more successful in the industry that they feel than them, are telling them what they need to do.

And they try to do that one thing because somebody says, Oh, you should do this, you should be posting on TikTok five times a day, that's how you make it. Or you should pursue sync, that's how you make it. Or you should just go on tour, do a house concert tour, that's how you make it, build it from the ground up, or you should do X, Y, and Z, it doesn't matter. And they try these things, and they give them a good month. They give them a good three months of trying this thing, and it just doesn't deliver the results that they're hoping for. They come back broken and bruised from this tour in a deep debt, deep hole. They, you know, had some horrific experiences that they never want to repeat on the plate to a bunch of empty rooms, just like awful feeling. Okay, I don't want to do that. That that didn't work. Or, you know, they post on TikTok and it's demoralizing and it feels icky and they're just not connecting, they don't know what they're doing, they're trying to follow every trend, they're spinning in all directions. It's soul crushing.

And they then they're like, why the fuck am I doing music? If this is what it means to be an artist, I don't want to be an artist. If those, and then they they quit, they give up all of those things, they stop each one of those things because they hadn't devoted a goal to what they wanted to achieve. Now, if their goal was, I want to uh let's go down the live route. I want to be able to sell a hundred tickets in eight markets within three years, you can work your ass off to achieve that goal. And there is a direct pathway to do that. And so it's not one tour, you're not gonna be selling a hundred tickets in every market, but sure, maybe you could start with, you know, and you're you're so narrowly focused on that goal. Or maybe my goal is I want uh I want two songs to uh reach a million streams in six months. Okay, that's a solid goal.

And you know what? Maybe TikTok and Instagram, I'm gonna focus on that because I think that's the moment right now. And so I'm going to think very specifically, I'm gonna use these tools, they are tools to try to achieve that goal. And then if you're narrowly focused, it's like you're not so consumed by the day-to-day or the wins and failures of the moment. You're just focused on that goal, and then you can move forward and reach that goal. And that's just like when it how you can make things less overwhelming and more focused. Well, as soon as this episode's over, Henry, we are going to write our top five goals for the next six months on a piece of paper, physically and post it. Yes, and cross them off as we as we reach them here in the studio. I love it. Henry, we've entered the final segment of the podcast. Damn, we already need a part two, bro. I know. I've like, we didn't even we didn't even scratch the surface of what I prepared. It's insane.

We could talk to you all day, man. But for now, it is time for the final segment. This is called the Rapid Fire Rampage. It's gonna be three sections. The first section is just some basic short answer questions. Starting with what is one belief about making it that you need every artist to just delete from their brains right now? That making it can be defined by anyone else but you. So good. What is the last business call you made and what was it about? If you're comfortable sharing. Yeah, let me think about that. Business call. Um yeah, it was uh I'm working on a new um, I'm working on an uh an immersive theatrical concert experience um with my funk project, Brass Roots District. And I'm calling musicians right now to be part of that.

And so the last call I made was to the sax player to see if he wanted to be part of it. See, that's why I love that question. That's cool. You find out something. That's cool. So cool. Yeah. You've just been appointed supreme leader of the music industry with unlimited power to do whatever you want. What is your first order of business? Dismantle every major label. I just saw uh Snow the Product uh on the manager's playbook, and she was like, I'm not anti-label, I'm not this. I'm like, Ari's anti-label, right? Pretty openly. Anti-major label, clearly. Yeah. What is one change that every artist could make to level up their live show a bit, or at least a lot of them could. Something you see. Oh, that's a great question. Um I would say at the start of your career, you just need to perform a lot more. It's that 10,000 hours concept.

If you haven't practiced 10,000, you know, hours on on stage, you're not going to be a great performer. So just get on more stages and just do it more. Now, if you're more established and you've already put in the time, um, I mean, honestly, like filming yourself and watching it back can be really informative and really helpful uh to see what everyone else has seen and get outside your body a little bit to just kind of see what you look like, even though it might feel good to you. Uh, you might need uh, yeah, you might not realize how you're coming across and uh you need some of that more objective feedback. Watch the tape. It's so obvious when he says it, but it's like so many people probably aren't doing that. Yeah. I I've I have one that I just like want to make sure that I mention. Okay. It's like just say your name. Yeah. Like throughout like I just no, it blows my mind the amount of shows I go to where like, especially if there's multiple artists on a bill, and like typically I'm more referring to the openers on the bill, right? Who the people probably did not come to see, but yet you have this opportunity to capture those those fans, like say your name, like multiple times. In

Between every song. Yeah. I will go one further with you then. Uh I will say capture the contact information of everybody in the room somehow. Wow. Either have a moment during your set, say, All right, everyone, pull out your phones. I want you to text this number, this word to this number. And the song that I just played, did you like that? Yeah, all right. It's not released, but I'll uh if you text this number, you're gonna get that song right now that you'll be able to listen to it on the drive home. That's a good one. That's a really good one. You know, get everybody's phone number in there. Or, you know, there's other organizations like set.live or something like that, where you can similarly uh have a moment in there where have everybody enter a raffle for uh a free merch pack at the end or something like that, or to you know, choose your your encore song or whatever. But I think everyone needs to think about how am I going to get contact information from everyone in this room tonight and make a moment during your set that you're gonna do that, whether it's hey, there's QR codes everywhere around the room, don't do it now. I don't want you to pull your phones out.

But if you scan this, you're gonna get X, Y, and Z on your way out, and that's a way to do it too. Just somehow make a moment during your set that you're going to figure out how to get everyone's contact information. And that's a clip. And I'll go one further as well. We're just gonna keep this going. It's Supposed to be short answer, guys. But often, if it's a ticketed event, you can ask the promoter in the venue to like send you a CSV of like the ticket purchasers, too. So, like that kosher? No, you can't. I just know that they no, no one will do that. That doesn't sound kosher. Live nation. No, no, no. I've gotten it from a live nation show. As the promoter, as the promoter, yeah. That's different. The artist doesn't get that. Well, couldn't I give it to the artist? Couldn't I give it to the artist that they asked? Or is that a or am I doing illegal things? I wish. Okay. Believe me, this is the biggest pain point. Okay, maybe I'm wrong here. No, no, no, no, no. But I got it. There's virtually no artist.

I mean, there's a difference if you are the promoter and you are the one that are selling tickets. But no, that is the biggest pain point for uh every artist touring every venue at any level. They don't know who bought their tickets. What's that? They don't know who bought their tickets. It's insane. They don't know who bought their tickets, they can't get the information. They cannot get their fan data, they can't get the email addresses or the phone numbers. They don't even know who's in the room right now. Believe me, I have asked every venue at every level and talk to my friends and colleagues at every level, playing everywhere from clubs to theaters to arenas. They don't get this information. If you're Taylor Swift, you get this information. If you're like, hey Live Nation, I'm not gonna play your tour unless I can get the fan data, they'll figure out a way. But it's a privacy situation. It's a you know, they'll they'll claim it's illegal, this, illegal that, and whatever. But yeah, no, absolutely. Um, but yeah, if you're if you are the promoter, like sure, I've thrown so many DIY shows where we use Eventbrite, and yeah, I get everyone's contact information because I'm the promoter. They bought tickets on my own website on my own Eventbrite, right?

Sure. But Ticketmaster does not give that information to the artists that are playing that room. Okay, I I totally didn't send it to any artist. No one got any contact info. You have to edit that out. Let's keep it going, Henry. Hey, fuck it. I'm sending it. Fuck it. I'm going. Yeah, you should. Artists deserve it, man. Yeah. Only a couple more of a short answer. What is the most underrated revenue stream for independent artists right now? Oh, that's a that's a good question. Um I would say direct to fan. Whether that is through um merch or a fan club or uh down digital, like a band camp or an even uh something where the fan pays you directly. We're not that's not filtered through all of these different entities like a DSP or a distributor or anything like that.

Um but selling directly to the fan and having the fan pay you money directly, that as obvious as it seems and sounds, is underutilized. Needed to be said. Mhmm. Last one of the short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Curse word that's correct. Um You thought it was gonna be a deep business question. Nope. My favorite, my favorite curse word is Lucian Grange. No, I'm just kidding. Oh shit. Now that counts. That counts. We'll accept it. We'll accept it. Yeah. Yeah, moving on. Yeah, hell yeah. Um, next section is the this or that. I'm gonna give you two choices. You just gotta pick one. Starting with. That was great. Hooks or verses. Uh hooks. 2500 person email list or 100,000 Instagram followers. Email list.

TikTok viral or Spotify editorial playlist. He looks pissed. Editorial, I guess. I don't like the premise, but it's neither. He's not interested in your games, Henry. Fat advance or retain your masters. Retain your masters. Ice bath or sauna. Sauna. Only play house concerts or only play weddings. This is you as the DJ. House concerts. House concerts. I fucking love House concerts. I think weddings pay good, though. I don't know. But yeah, house concerts. House concerts can pay really well too. Okay. Uh if you set it up right. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, I've made a lot of money on house concerts. I like house concerts. Unwavering consistency or elite quality. Ooh, that's elite quality. And finally become a full-time rapper or leave the music industry forever. Those are my choices.

I guess I'm out of the industry. Oh shit. You didn't even know. You could play guitar on your own beats and like you could do that. You don't want to hear me rap. And no one wants to hear me rap. I'm in my lane. I really want to hear you rap. I kind of do even more now. You said that. anyway, the last section is I love rap. I respect rappers. I respect them so much. That you won't that I'm not going to, I'm not going to step on. He respects the craft that much. And then I can do what they what they can do. That is not something that I do well and that I should be doing. Fair enough. Fair enough. The last section is the word association. I'm going to say a word. I just need you to give me the first word that you think of off the top of your head. So dangerous. There are no correct answers. You are only judged on speed. Starting with music. Business. Algorithm. Shit. 50-50 equity split. Frustration.

Banana. Apple. Auto-tune. Tool. Les Paul. Gibson. Exposure. Free. Podcast. Uh interesting. Fourth edition. Coming soon. Ah, yes. AI. Complicated. Crowd Surf. Fun. Blockchain. Dead. Making it. In the new music business. Let's go. Let's go. This has been Ari Herstand. Holy shit, Henry. We did it. Too fast, man. We did it. We're going to already have to have a part two. Yes. Drop a comment if you got value out of this interview. This was incredible. Yes, the OG, man. Thanks again for coming on. Appreciate you coming on, man. Until next time, Henry, what are you doing? Getting out of here. Getting the fuck out of here. Peace, y'all. Bye-bye.