Inside the Modern Record Label: What ACTUALLY Works in 2026 (ft. Chris Herche)

That's funny, man. Uh, but yeah, no, appreciate you coming on. We got Chris Hirsch on the podcast, Henry. Let's go. Holy shit. Never thought it would happen. Made it happen. No, honestly, uh, Chris is one of the people that when I first started trying to get into the music business, I was trying to be a manager, right? And I think I was watching the music business podcast. I think you did an episode there or like someone from cinematic. I don't know if it was Hovain Rest in peace. I don't know if he did an episode. It was Hovain and I, yeah. Yeah, and so I I like became familiar with cinematic, right? Um, and so then I was just like following you, and then I ended up linking with Fame, and she and I are really close friends now. Um, so really, really full circle moment for me. So I appreciate you coming on. You are a wealth of knowledge. You've had so much amazing experience, right? Um, whether it's through the major label system, you know, starting your own label, like working for a boutique indie label, uh, now working at Create Music Group. Um, so just really excited for this conversation, man.

Appreciate you coming on for real. No, I really appreciate that. And thanks for all the kind words and uh shout out fame. Yes, yes, absolutely. Um, so I feel like, you know, honestly, since like 2023 at this point, there's been, you know, a series of layoffs that have happened within the major label system. Um, so I guess like from your perspective, because there's all sorts of perspectives on this right out there, from your lens. What do you think is going on with that? Like what how would you sum up what's happening? Um, I'm a I mean, I'm a product of the major record label system, right? I'm gonna start off with saying that because I feel like that there's like people that take one side of the fence or the other, and I'm a believer of all roles and all kind of uh different types of companies are important to the ecosystem and support different artists and clients that have different needs, right? I think largely I think the major record labels are outsourcing a lot of their third-party stuff and putting that onto the artist budget, which isn't necessarily like that wrong, right? Like, so you have a Doja Cat, and instead of the overhead absorbing the radio team or the publicity team or various all these digital marketing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Um they are hiring those third party companies, and then they're able to build that back to the artist budget. So that's actually better for their overhead, and then in turn, unfortunately, better for their stock price. So they need less people, I think, to do the day-to-day work. I mean, but like do you think it's like a is it a consequence of like a shift that's happening though, or do you think it is just more of a how can we do this same thing more efficiently, right? From a staffing and overhead perspective? I I think it's literally trying to be efficient. I mean, I know it gets a lot of people who have it as a bad rap, and majors are bad and all of these things, and like I think there's good parts and bad parts of all of it, and I think that they're just trying to be efficient. Cause it's like, even if I go back and this is like the early aughts. Now, granted, it was a kind of a skeleton staff for a different reason at that time, because they were like all the pirating that was going on and stealing like you know, and CD sales and all of this type of stuff in the early 2000s, and so we were smaller staffs when I was at RCA Records and so forth and hiring a lot of third parties to help with some of the things. So it was kind of similar in those times to some degrees.

But I guess the, you know, it's it's I think it's really about just efficiency and stock price. Why do you think major labels get such a bad fucking rap, man? Like people hate majors, man. Yeah, like what what it what is wrong about that? Like, what what do you hear consistently from people that say they hate majors for X, Y, Z reasons? Like, which of those reasons is just fundamentally like not true in your mind? I mean, I think that it's like people have a really hard time accepting kind of any responsibility for it not happening, right? Like it and it's like, and it's also in this music business of ours, it's very hard to determine why something doesn't work, right? Like, if you could sit down or if anybody could sit and explain why Lady Gaga was signed to one of the Sony labels under her government name and didn't become popular, but then got rebranded and signed and kind of birthed Lady Gaga with different people, and then it became that, right? Like, you know, why did why why is that?

Why do some things work over here and not over there? You know, you don't hear about it too too often as like those kinds of things, but like it's it's no, it's hard to say, right? And then so these people that had success, because if you're on a major, you have some pretty big success, right? Like, you know, if you're developing and you're on there very long, and so if you're a developing artist and you never get to the super stardom level, you're pissed off at them because that never happened, and it obviously wasn't your fault, that's their fault, right? Like, and I think that if you are up there, it's hard understanding why you're not still up there, and it's those kind of coming to terms of like, well, you're not as selling as much as you were. You're not your singles aren't doing as well as radio, and it's just like, and then I think that that finger pointing a lot of times happens at all labels, right? I think the music business, I think it gets kind of pointed at like sometimes managers, or you see these things of like why do managers in camps get fired, or you know, you get major record labels or distributors or indies or whatever. I just think that that's kind of just the way that it goes, which is like they definitely played a part in it, sure.

Like, but it's like it's not a science, it's an art. Yeah, I feel like the the thing I hear most that resonates with me is like if major labels knew why something worked and knew why things didn't work, they would just bat a thousand. They would never lose, they would never lose. They have the money, there's no there's no uh issue of funding. So yeah, it is I mean, even the Lady Gaga one, that's great. That's a good one. Yeah, you never hear about the the wins really. It's it's the it's the bad deals that like always make the headlines and the Instagram posts, you know. So, but there's clearly like something's working. Right, like I think that you're also seeing, like, you know, in the today of like look at me culture, there's some of those stories that marketing teams or managers or whoever like spin up about like you know, so-and-so's making so much money, or so-and-so's like got such a good deal, or so-and-so got X amount of figures. So I don't know, I think you do hear some of the wins.

I don't hear that really. Do you hear that? I mean, I feel like our algorithms sometimes are more not ours, I mean people's algorithms are more like negative, you know. Um I even heard Theo Vaughn talking about this as far as like why the news is what it is. Exactly. Everything just negativity seems to sell. Yeah, it's commentable. It's engageable, man. But so, you know, as someone who again has worked in such a variety of roles and at different types of companies, um, I do feel like there's somewhat of a shift, and there's almost this like idea of this modern record label that's being born recently, right? And I feel like it's become um, you know, more of a thing, and they're seeing more success uh as of late. How would you kind of define the like modern record label and the role that they're playing in today's climate? I guess when you speak like modern record label, you're talking about maybe some of the younger record labels that are coming. That's that's what I feel like.

I feel like there's a lot of these kind of like you know, newer boutique labels that yeah, they might have upstreamed an artist to a major, but you look at like a since the 80s or an LVRN, right? Like these are two examples just here in Atlanta that I'm you know that I'm familiar with, but there's tons of these, you know, in the landscape. And I think I have an idea of kind of like what their role is and how they are positioned, right, to serve their clients. But I I would love to know your take on like because you know, I mean, shit, create has what, 5,000 label partners or something crazy. Yeah, something crazy. So I feel like you kind of know, Chris, like what a record label is starting to look like, you know? So yeah, no, I think that a modern record label is typically I'm seeing much smaller staffs of a couple of people. I'm seeing very active uh founder operators, right? Who's so these young entrepreneurs who have uh, you know, it's their label, but they're also doing a lot of the work, right?

Whether that's and I think that they're really focused on two primary things, which is AR and digital marketing, right? So I think that that's all really smart and all very like modern. I think the thing that also is kind of starting to be a little bit more commonplace are unique deals. And I've heard of all sorts of different things that like I never would have heard of 20 years ago. So it's like I'm not gonna put everybody's business out on Front Street, and some of these labels I work with, and some I don't, but like, you know, for examples, I know a label that only signs artists kind of in one-offs. right? Like they like, and so when I was starting in the music business, you signed the strokes to a album deal, and then you had option or options behind it. So that means that you would pay them to participate in 10 songs or one album for X period of years with these rights and so forth. And if it went well, you had the ability to exercise an option at certain costs and triggers and all of this stuff to participate in another 10 songs, and then if it kept going well, labels would continue to buy options or maybe buy the catalog or continue to kind of restructure the deal so that they stayed in business with that artist, which is why you see you know, an artist that's being very successful, you know, and very like long kind of continuing to release music at one place, right?

So that's how it used to be, but now because of the streaming services, viral marketing, all of these different things. I literally know like a label that like cherry picks songs off of an artist and says, Well, I like these three songs, so I will work with you on these three songs and we'll do license or master deals on them, and then the rest of your stuff, like feel free to do whatever you want with. Good luck. And it's like that's crazy to me. Like, that's like, we're investing in it at a track level, which is something that one of the more modern ways to do it. And I think that that really kind of almost speaks to just like in this current landscape, there's a lot more flexibility, right? Like, I'm working with a lot of really exciting labels at um create, and within those, like they're young operators. Like some of these labels are literally run by 20-year-olds, like they're doing an amazing, they're doing an amazing job. Like they're doing like an incredible job of this, and it's really inspiring because you know, I'm 47.

I've been in the music business literally longer than these kids have been on the planet. And like I'm learning things from them, and it's amazing because like they but they'll have tracks where like in the funk genre, sometimes an artist will go do a track with this label and then this label and then this label and like that label. So it's like that's yet another version of kind of the thing I mentioned before of where there's really like you're not signing it in an artist level, and there's not really like artist development happening from the label side as much, like right. That's more like I guess through the artist or management or whatever, if that's happening at all, and then like they're doing kind of track to track because like sometimes that's collaborator-based because you know, they will go to a track over here be with this person that signed over there, and they'll go to a track with this person over there because that, and like so forth. So it's like you see those things, you know. You see, um, yeah. What are some other types of deals? You mentioned like the one-offs that you're that you're talking about right now, but you also said that like these labels are do are doing deals that you weren't really used to, you know, back in the day.

What are some other versions of that? Because I think that's interesting. I mean, I think those are probably the biggest ones as far as in the major differentiators, because otherwise, like there are a lot of labels, like you know, good talk or easy money that we work with that are doing actual like artist development, right? Like, you know, kind of doing more of it traditionally, of where they'll sign an artist for a smaller amount of money, and knowing that it's gonna take three or four years for them to develop, and I think that like that's one of the things that I really love about Create is that it's really a place of like supporting the entrepreneurs, and I think it's really pretty cool to build that community and to like network because it's like I spend so much of my time on the other side of the fence, like being a label, being in a distributor or having a joint venture. I mean, like Shipes and I had a joint venture at Gethin, and like, you know, it's just like I know the things that I was not getting, and so I feel like I can be better served to try to help get them what they need, right? Like, you know, I think that it's and it's also just being a conversation, right?

Like, you know, it's just kind of being open to hearing like, all right, well, this is what our back end is, or these we can build these dashboards for you. Like, how can we make them better for you, right? Like, and actually trying to do that work. Yeah. So let's talk about the big elephant in the room, Henry. What would that be? Let's talk about artist development, artist development. You know, you kind of like breeze right past that, like, if it's even happening at all. And it's just been a recurring theme on the podcast, Chris. Well, and I also think it's I think well, I think it's one of those things out in the in the like universe, right? The music industry universe, where people are still loving to claim that like artist development is dead. Like they 100 percent throw the major labels under the bus saying it definitely ain't happening over there. But then, you know, some people just think it's not happening at all. Like, how would you actually define artist development? Because I think it's like one of those ethereal like buzzwords that like no one loves to really like practically break down, like what the hell does it actually mean? So, can I get your best like fifth grade summary?

Maybe like maybe what it used to be and what it looks like today, too. Because I have a feeling it's very different. I mean, artist development in its essence to me is working with an artist and helping them get to a higher level than they're at today. That generally means on what level? Is that a financial level, a royalty level, streams, consumptions, like social touring, but can mean a lot of different things, and kind of depending on the artist, you might focus in on different areas or all of them, right? But I think that it's interesting because like I disagree. I think there's artist development is still happening, and I think it's happening everywhere, and I think it's all different and yet also the same to that true essence, right? Major record labels. Just because you're not developing an artist from no consumers all the way up to the top of the mountain, doesn't mean that you're not developing an artist. You can sign an artist that can be at a certain level. I mean, hell, there's artist development that YoungBoy can do that, like literally Taylor Swift can do the biggest and the best artist in this entire business, still have development to do, right?

Like in growth as an artist and the actual art. So I think that you a lot of like the entry level of like where major record labels are able to make a profit is at a much higher level than say a boutique or an indie or a distributor. However, there still can be development from that level where they sign them up to a level that's higher than that. Because the goal, you know, the goal is to try to be the Beatles or you know, Michael Jackson, or you know, they want to get to the the Led Zeppelin, you want to be Nirvana, is like you want to be the biggest and baddest thing like ever, right? Like, and so it's happening there. I think it's happening. I think there's a lot of incredible boutique labels that are developing artists. I mean, I think there's a ton of them. I mean, you mentioned to in Atlanta, I think that there's 10 I could rattle off at Good Talk, or uh sorry, it uh create, like good talk being one of them. Easy money, broke, void of funk, Aurorian, Enhanced, like there's all these ones, you know, like that are developing.

And then I think that there's management companies are that are developing them. Hell, I think there's some artists that are smart enough that are developing themselves. Now that's key. I think that's key because a lot of people that I run into in our community, they do seem like they're looking for someone to help them develop. And I think they're missing the boat and like missing an opportunity to develop themselves, right? Because it's possible. And you're right, there are a lot of artists out here that are doing it. And a quick shout out if you're watching this episode, you're doing a great job at developing yourself. So keep doing it. Make sure you subscribe to the channel, like this episode, turn on notifications so you never miss one. Keep that artist development going, guys. Holy shit. Good job, bro. Come on. Don't let me hang in. Uh streams. What was that? Comment what? I said comment below. We'll come back. We'll check out all your profiles, you know, give you some streams. We'll listen to all your music. If you comment below, guys. Did Chris just sign himself up to do that? Because I'm I don't know if I'll have time.

I'll definitely come back and listen to music if you comment below. Let's go. There you go. Man, we need more of that. Fire. We need more of that energy. Um but yeah, I think that like there are a lot of artists that, you know, the problem I think where a lot of artists get caught up is the money part of it, right? Because development, I think, in marketing and a lot of these things, content creation, a lot of it in people's minds cost money. And that's not not true, right? Like, you know, it kind of depends. If you have the luxury of being able to afford a phone and a laptop and an internet connection, you can get creative and you can do some stuff, but like that's not necessarily something that everybody can afford. So it's just like, and and especially in certain countries. So it's like it is hard for some people because that's very far off. But I think if you have a phone and a computer and an internet connection, though it's not easy, I think there certainly is a path to being able to be creative and consistent enough to be able to gain some momentum to where somebody will be interested in possibly investing in your craft. So, but like even taking good talk and easy money, shout out Sean Barron, uh who's a one-more time podcast.

Yeah, let's talk about easy money. Go. Yeah, yeah. So, like so, what what do you think in practice that you know Sean and Ty were doing with Leon Thomas, for example? Because I think, again, like you're saying some of these labels are doing it well, and I just still don't know what to do. What are they doing? What are they doing? Like interesting one, though, right? Like you before you said to the people, like there, there's actually a great answer for you when you get into the debate. When somebody says, Well, a major record label hasn't developed an artist, Leon Thomas. Yeah, no, I mean, like, that's like you know, I would say that that's an artist that's been developed in recent times, right? Like was just on Billboard the Power Player issues and all that kind of stuff, and Sean and Ty were able to get a deal, and that's why you know, one of the reasons why you know, create wanted to do a deal with them, and I think that I wasn't involved with Leon Thomas, but I know knowing Sean and Ty, they're music first people, and I think that that's where like uh the beauty starts, right? Like they love the music and they love the craft and they have true good taste.

I mean, I remember very vividly, I'll give you a Sean Barron story that probably isn't talked about a whole lot. When I was at Koch Records, might have been no, it's still Koch Records. When I was there, Sean Barron was in the mail room, and Sean Barron, like he brought up Drake when Drake was still being off of MySpace when Drake was still being managed by like a family man, like a family lawyer. Like it who like was not like somebody that was not like a music lawyer, right? It was like literally like just like he was an actor at that point. Yeah, it was just like some friend that was like also a friend, like family friend that was like also a lawyer. It's like that that says everything about Sean right there. Like, dude, that gives he's like he's got great taste in music, and so he stays true to that, and it takes a lot of time, money, and effort, right? Like, I again I wasn't involved in Leon because that was over when they were still doing that at Atlantic, but like consistency, great music, great content, you know, and and doing the right things with the fan base, right? Like, you know, I mean, is was is how it got done, and I think that they're gonna do it again.

They've got another artist you guys should go check out called RJ the weirdo, who's awesome. Yeah, no, for sure. I like I mean, at the end of the day, the music's the most important thing, right? We talk about all these things, but like music has to be great. Well, everyone loves to be like down, you know, down in the dumps about like, oh, the music doesn't matter anymore. Like the music fucking matters, totally. It's what matters. Like all the great stuff that's happening, and like, you know, I think there's tons of great music that's out there right now. I think I don't know, I'm trying to I try to be, or at least more recently or recent years, maybe this is old me but like be optimistic about you know the the good things that are happening in the business. Yeah so is it safe to say that you know to your point digital marketing and AR are the two like main functions that like these boutique indie labels should be focusing on and the and the successful ones are focusing on. Is that like characteristic of all of them you think absolutely I think maybe the one other aspect of that or I guess like kind of one role and then I think a philosophy right is I think the other role is like they need somebody that is like keeping it all together so project manager. Now and sometimes in some of these smaller labels you know the project manager might also be the AR or the digital marketer might be digital marketer slash project manager right like in being able to do both of those things but you gotta kind of have somebody that's keeping everything like centralized and doing all of the you know because like the A&R people are worrying about the music the digital marketing people are worrying about the digital marketing and like this and that like somebody needs to get the content so the digital marketers can do it that is like the A and R is one of the best. Somebody's got to like play air traffic control.

Yeah that's a great analogy. point the cones I love it um okay so yeah so I think something that you know different differentiates Create um to the point of you know I'm sure it plays a big role in the billion dollar valuation that you know you guys have. Let's take a moment yeah let's take a moment to just moment of silence for the billion dollars that create is worth right now. Um, I think data is extremely important to y'all's business, and I think it needs to be extremely important to all of our artists and labels businesses as well, right? Because I think we just live in a in an era where data is king, right? Um, you can make more informed decisions based on the data. We just even talked about, you know, we're contemplating starting new channels and how that's going to impact the data and the analytics, and oh, we're gonna have to have this over here and that over there, and how it's gonna, you know, kind of complicate things. But at the end of the day, we still need to be looking at the data to know what's working and to where where to spend our time and our money, right?

So, what what types of data should artists and labels be most focused on and most worried about? I mean, I think really if like your it depends on what vantage point you're coming at, but I think at the end of the day, kind of let's hold the through line of artist development, right? It's sustained growth over time is been the data that I think is really the most important, right? Like you've got to stay consistent, you've got to continue to grow, right? So, like, how does that happen? Whether that's strategy, a tour, a song and radio, digital marketing, consistent releases, all of those things. You hope with that you're getting higher levels, and then obviously after those things are done, the advertising dollars spend, the tour stops or whatever, or the album's been out for a few months, it will decrease down, but you hope that you settle at a higher level of consumption and engagement than you were at before. So I think that like that's really the overarching most important data point is like, is this thing growing?

You know, not that you can't have really great businesses of an artist that is maintaining, because you absolutely can, but I think if you're trying to develop the thought processes, is you're trying to get to a next level of consumption to some degree, right? So it's just like that growth is the most important. Now that can be on any platform, you know, that can be, but I think that's where you're gonna get your informed decisions of where you should spend your money, time, and effort, right? If everything that you're putting up onto TikTok is doing really well, then that's obviously where you should be spending your time because you're getting that data back. Now that said, the other job that you have is to try to move those communities around because I've seen this also. Like, you know, I'm I'm just for the hell of it. Have you guys seen this thing? This is such a Cincinnati thing. And if you're not from Cincinnati, it probably hasn't made its way to your algorithms. There's this 10-year-old kid who literally, he's called Hot Dog Harv. He literally is does a parody, like think like weird Al Yankovic, to uh a Chappell Roan song because it was her older sister, his older sister just kept playing the hell out of it or whatever.

And so, like he like he's this creative little like kid. I've I've heard about him, I swear to god, I heard about him on Theo Von's podcast. Yeah, hot dog Harv. That's amazing. Yes, this kid, you know, he's 10 years old and his parents are running his account, and they're just like, you know, normal, nice people, and like they don't know this music industry and all of this stuff, and like he had so much momentum going in all of these things, and his TikTok got taken down. He's a 10-year-old kid. Not I mean, it couldn't be the more PG content in the world, and they took it down. But my point is is like if you're spending all of your effort and having a viral, you know, moments and all of this stuff, and it's all on TikTok, and you haven't spread those communities to other places or to an email list or to a text list, or that's that's you know that's the key, right? That's the one that you own, actually, which is major. I mean, not I mean, like, what do we really own? Like, right? Like Google goes. So true. AWS goes down, good luck doing anything, bro.

Like, but you know, the whole shit goes to hell. Yeah, and AWS just went down. So, how do you how have you seen people do that effectively? Because I feel like in theory, yes, we understand, like, even we struggle with how do we move people from Instagram where uh Instagram clip goes fucking dummy. How do we get them to actually watch this long form episode on YouTube? I think it's it's tougher than you know, we make it seem. So, how have you seen any tactics or strategies that have been working most effectively? I mean, it's the same stuff that is getting press right now, which means it's oversaturated and probably not gonna be as effective anymore. Cause once you start getting the like massive articles and things happening, being like, oh, the entire music industry is now doing clipping. So anytime you do like this, there's these things that they literally too late now. The fucking walk down of like what it is, they literally is, I think a little bit too late. Because like I have been around long enough to see everything that wasn't gonna die, right? The iTun Store.

Holy shit, it saved the music industry. Fucking gone. Rest in peace, bro. My space Music, the coolest fucking place where like every gone. The blogs, like oh man, don't short iPods, man. We're never gonna go anywhere. Like, where's the fucking like those the bloggers had to get jobs? Like man, sorry. I love a lot of them and they're friends with a lot of them, but this is the facts. Yeah, and so it's it's really dangerous, you know, and like, and I don't know where everything is going. Like us, I mean, I'm I'm like a lot of people probably I'm really curious. I'm watching, I'm trying to learn. I'm a little scared, like all of these things of like where it could potentially go. All I know is the way that it's happening now, even though everybody's like TikTok's the biggest most important, it will go away. Like the only thing I kind of feel like is almost stood the like standing time is like is is YouTube. Otherwise like SoundCloud was hot and went away even Google, right?

Like look at Google searches and how many people are using search engines because now everybody's using like ChatGPT and AI. Like that's kind of gone away. But like YouTube's kind of been the one thing that's kind of like hung around and like hung around so like maybe not maybe TikTok's the other exception but I'm just saying like I whether it was the iTunes store, MySpace the blogs when they were big and popular and it was the thing it certainly didn't feel like it was going anywhere. MySpace music at the time felt just as solid as TikTok feels now or YouTube feels like it was like super solid ground like it was like everybody was on it and it was working but unfortunately I think in today's marketplace with a lot of these digital marketing strategies things are getting oversaturated and broken right like you know TikTok the rise in 2019 Shipes and I had a top five artist on TikTok fully independently top five Who, laquel exactly. Yeah.

You guys you know your shit. Yeah. Fucking I love it. Like Yeah. Like Shout out to what is he up to? No offense, man. But like I think he's still putting on music. Okay. Sorry. Sorry, Laquel. We'd love to have you on the podcast. Oh, it's not coming on now. He probably probably won't see this ever. Okay. He's he's a great musician. But I'm just saying, like, he like it still probably is. Like the, you know, 2019, that was crazy. And then 2020, it got so oversaturated so quickly by the music industry. And like that's what happens, right? Like, you know, third party Spotify playlisting, all these YouTube hacks, SoundCloud reposting campaigns, you know, like all this stuff. They, you know, becomes a thing, and then the industry decides to like break it or big business because they overuse it, and then people kind of get onto it and then it realize it's fake or being paid for, and like move on to the next, right? Like, you know, we're seeing like all these clippings and outputs happening from all the Twitch streamers and musicians and so forth, and it's just like I think now that I've seen the like billboard article or whatever it was that was like talking about it, I'm like, oh, this is over.

Like, because it's done. Do you have any guesses or any observations that you've made on what some of those next things might be? Yeah, if you were coming up right now, yeah. What are you putting your money on, Chris? And how important is it to be like tapped in and trying these new things as they come out? Because the early adopters are clearly the big winners. I agree. So, okay, I don't know. Damn, I thought he was about to give us a good one. I don't know. But here's what I do know. Okay. It's a young business. It's incredibly important to have young people around who are really passionate about it and are living natively on those platforms because they're the ones that understand it to the best. And then you need to give them a voice. And I think that to the modern like music industry and also like record label, I think is happening. Or a lot of the entrepreneurs themselves are indeed those people, right? They're the digital marketer and the AR, and they're, you know, like the guys that run broke records, the guys that run Void of Funk, that's what they are.

They're ARs and also digital marketers. So like they understand kind of the different strategies and manipulations of these platforms that can help kind of accelerate growth, right? And so it's just like you've got to have young people on your team. And then the other thing I've always found is like you've always got to try stuff. You have to like Paul Sinclair that used to work at Atlantic and is it now one of the like AI companies who's a brilliant mind, he always was open to taking meetings. He probably spent 60% of his time taking meetings with people, you know, at this website that new technology here, new thing like that. Like all of these emerging platforms, whether they were apps, websites, technologies, and so forth, and trying stuff out because you're totally right. You could completely be the next thing that breaks. I think personally, I don't know why. A lot of the dance community tend to be the leaders.

And I think if you're trying to really figure out those next platforms, maybe not anymore, but like Diplo, like all those dudes, like those motherfuckers are always the first ones on all of these platforms. There's like a list of like 10 dance DJ producer guys, women, like that I think are usually like the early adopters in those platforms. I don't know why that is, but I've always like noticed because it's like I try to be really early on stuff and have a lot of friends in industry and taking a lot of meetings and outreach and all this kind of stuff. And like every time I get to this platform, all those motherfuckers are already signed up and had activity. There's 10 users and they're all DJs. Like I like literally was just like I just met with the founder and they just like went, like they just kicked this off a month ago. How the fuck are you guys doing? So, you know, you mentioned kind of like if if you're looking at your analytics and seeing that you're seeing a lot of growth on TikTok, you were kind of hinting at like, you know, doubling down and you know, understanding that that's a big platform for you. But then we also talk about you know, the kind of other side of the coin is like these platforms could be here today, gone tomorrow, like all the different examples that you named.

So, like, what's the what's the balance, right? Like, how many plat like this is a huge question we get asked all the time. Like, how many platforms should I be on, right? Because like, if I'm crushing on TikTok, there's an argument for being like, why the fuck are you even worrying about posting to Twitter if you're just crushing on TikTok, right? But if your TikTok gets deleted, shout out to Hot Dog Harv, but like you're dead in the water. So, like, what's what's your philosophy? Because I know you manage an art, or like you still work with an artist directly, right? Um Yeah, either profit, right? Shout out to him. Um, like what's your guidance around like that, like that question? It's really hard, right? Because if you go and you try to go back to the like music first, music's the most important element, and it's an art, and in theory, supposed to be something that is a creative outlet for these people, and it being something that is like part of their soul, right? Like, if you go back to that, it's like it's a really big ask, I think, and I feel really bad for that. It's just the way of the world in the music industry currently, that you basically have to be that plus plus, right?

Like the Rolling Stones could have been the Rolling Stones, and like they're fucking rock stars, and like you make a great album, and then like the everybody else did everything. They didn't have to worry about generating all this content and maintaining social media, like none of that shit. Like, they literally made an album, and then like they got ready for tour, and then they would go on tour, and they'd probably have to go like on a radio run and a press run and this and that. But like, nobody said they didn't set any of that shit up, like it just like waltzed in, depending on what level you are. It was just more of like that. Now you've gotta create content for all of these different platforms every single fucking day for like years, and it's just like this huge, huge ask. And so I think that my advice is this. You I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mouth, but I'm aware I'm doing it. In a perfect world, in a perfect world, you want to be on all of them as consistently as you can, so that they all grow at the same time, and you're not just able or restricted to being on one platform in case something happens to that platform or whatever, right? You want to be everywhere, but that's also really draining in a lot, especially if like you're on tour and you're a developing artist and you're like on tour and have to do that, and you know, like, and it's like it just become and like still have like work a daytime job because your money's not fully supporting you.

Try to find young interns who are trying to learn the business. There's so many kids who are in high school, in college, who want to get some sort of an experience for their resume and just their general learning, and would love to help you out for free, who can help you with some of these social media platforms and so forth. And I think the teams that I'm really seeing win have almost like little pods around them, right? Now, whether that's like a couple of interns or whether that's actually like a boutique record label or whatever, like, but there's an actual like team of people that like instead of being kind of, and I think that this might be another part of that like modern record label, instead of it being like one person kind of across everything, it's more like little pods of people that are focused in on a much smaller amount of things. Yeah.

It's huge, you know. I mean, because shit, we've even the only help that we've really had is interns. Interns, for sure. Yeah, we we also yeah, yeah, we got college interns, we've had them on kind of like site, you know, they do little like semester stints, right? So we've had like semester with these folks, and then that, and honestly, like it's been helpful for sure. I mean, like to it to vary. And they are very eager, yeah, and to get their hands dirty, and to varying degrees, but like, man, I mean, even just that extra little bit of help to your point, right? Just to take away some of that, like even just having no body to like bounce ideas off of almost all all of it. It can be everything from like listening to them to hearing ideas to strategy to potentially new platforms you might should be on, to then just also like volume of work and administration, right? Like I'm sure what you guys do with the podcast, like everybody else is doing, is you go through, you clip a bunch of stuff, and then you're pushing it out through a bunch of different channels and so forth. And like just that takes time.

And that can be something that is really good for a intern to handle because that helps you guys, and that also gives somebody some great experience that will be able to help, whether that's with a college application or whether that's a job application or whatever. And so, like, I don't know. I'm just like, I'm a big and uh a big advocate of like trying to build a pod around a thing and it having be people that are passionate about it. And then if you're at early levels and you don't have the ability to put much money or hire people, and it's not in a boutique record label, there's nothing wrong with having interns help you, because I think it's a fair exchange. And I think at least what I'm learning, I've known those as a as an old guy in the business, it's like a lot of my friends have kids that are teenagers and in high school, and what colleges now expect to see out of high school applicants is is nuts. It's like they expect them to have good grades and have extracurriculars and all these interests in sports and like internships. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, internships?

And my buddies are like, Yeah, internships. I'm like, but a lot of companies don't even hire you in college for an intern until you're a junior. How is a 16-year-old gonna get an internship? Like seriously, yeah. I mean, honestly, I've never even thought about this because I think a big again, like, I mean, I'll call it an excuse. I'm just gonna say for what I feel like it is, is like, you know, artists think that they need a team, and oftentimes they're looking like, oh, if this like big name manager would just manage me or whatever, versus like, no, you need someone who's in fucking high school to run your Twitter. That's what you fucking need. Like, you know? Um, I've never really thought about that. Like, we should really. I mean, I'm glad that this is on wax now during this episode, but it's like that's something we should be telling our artist friends that are always kind of like, you know, frustrated at the fact that they don't have enough support. Bring your little cousin in. Yeah, and that they are having to work a day job to obviously pay the bills, they are having to shoot their own content, they are having to make the music, develop themselves, etc. But man, like having that that team of maybe like, yeah, young high schoolers or like young college kids that are just eager to be a part of something fun and get that experience, too, you know?

No, no, like it's fine. I like talking about them because I think their business is really cool. But like the two young guys that own this record label called Void of Funk, one of them, they're brothers, one of them's 18 and one of them's 20. They live in Germany, and they're in one of the fairly small towns in Germany. And these guys run a pretty sizable, like funk dance record label and are making like good money and like breaking artists and doing really cool shit. They eat the younger brother, is literally in high school. They've got other high school kids that are like helping They're like they're just their friends. They got a high school sweatshop, It's German high school students. But they're they're they're buddies, they're literally all like their 18-year-old friends. And like Germany has different work programs, so like they actually get paid and do all of these great things, and like they have an office. Bro. How fucking cool would that have been to being a senior in high school, and your buddy has a record label that has a fucking office down the street, and we can all go hang out there?

Bro, I was hanging out in shitty basements in Cincinnati, Ohio. Like that would have been way better. Yeah. Bro, and how many people were in our fucking comments when we said, like, get your homie to shoot your content for you and buy him a bottle of alcohol and dinner. They hated us for saying that. they all assumed that we were saying like a professional photographer and we were degrading the value of professional photographers. Like, no, do you have a smartphone with a camera on it? And any one friend that would take a six-pack of beer to hang out with you for a little bit. Like, yeah, Jesus, man. When I was 18 years old, I was that buddy. Six packs of beer, I would have showed up anywhere. There you go. Trust me. They're out there. I feel you. Do what? Yeah. So you mentioned, you know, an executive, I think it was uh Paul Sinclair, you said, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So he he. Yeah. So he now has ventured into the AI space you were saying? He has, and I can't remember the name of that company off of the top of my No, that's all good. It was just a perfect segue for me to just start talking about AI, to be honest.

So he's the he's the no, I pulled it up. I just looked there. He's the chief music officer at Suno. He said Suno. Well, that's the AI. Well The AI music company. I mean Yeah. Wow. So. I'm not gonna get this. There will be no Suno. Well, unless you want to hate on Suno here, that's fine. But there will be no Suno hate on the podcast right now. We'll leave that for another episode, Henry. Keep your mouth shut. Jesus. Um but how are you? How are you and Create Music Group looking at AI? Because I I saw Baby Tate um post an extremely aggressive rant directed towards Xania Monét, the AI artist that Hallwood Media signed for three million dollars, who's been charting, right? And she had some choice words for this poor girl from Mississippi who's a poet who's the one prompting, like she's the like person behind it for the most part. And Tate was just going off, bro. Like, we'll have to like link, we'll have to clip it and post it in this or something. But um how how are you viewing AI in music and how is your company like approaching it, right?

I think we're just trying to get educated, right? Like, we're trying to use AI largely right now to help us with supporting our entrepreneurs and kind of our like software system data reporting and you know things of that nature, um, versus it being kind of on the the music side, right? Like, you know, I think that it's a very, very interesting space. I'm not even sure how I feel about it, right? Like, I kind of bounce around. I've got a lot of musician friends, and they're all really loud and scared about it, which I totally understand and appreciate, which is not different than the rant that you're talking about. Yeah. I also have a lot of friends that are like session musicians, and so it's just like I I can appreciate if an artist is, and this is me as an individual speaking, is like I can appreciate if it's an artist is in the basement and making music and is a singer and a guitar player, and they need a drum loop or whatever, and they're gonna use AI for that. I don't know if that's all that different than a lot of the music programs that already exist out there and the drum loops and the different things.

Like, I don't know what that I like. Is there a difference? For sure? I don't really know what it is in that example. I am an advocate of, and I would really hate to see a lot of the creative industry fall because people are not using session players anymore and different things, and you know, and everybody starts going to like AI for that stuff. I mean, it's like I've got a lot of buddies in film and video that are worried about it in different ways. They're gonna be like, well, in the future, there really only needs to be like one or two guys on set, and then the rest is gonna be AI. And you're like, well, that's a little scary. But like, you know, and you're starting to see the programs and all of these kinds of things, but like I think we've all got to be very cautious. I think that we've all got a large responsibility for making sure that the right things are established, but I'm not gonna be the first one, or I don't think Create's gonna be the first one to kind of like jump off of the ledge and do something very aggressive. Like, I'm I'm not okay with it all being AI.

I think that's bad. Like, I don't I I think I don't, I mean, I don't even know, like honestly, like that dude, Chris is literally my brain right now, dude. Yeah, because again, we love our community of musicians and artists, like that's who and and just music makers in general. So it's like, yeah, do I want to see people like out of jobs or like cut out of certain like rooms because the person now can just be by themselves with a computer and prompt and get you know things, you know, made that way? Like, no, of course not. Um, do I love live music and do I want to see that being impacted because people just aren't gonna start doing music in the first place because there's no place for them? Like, fuck no, I don't want that either. But like, I also don't want someone who wants to get a creative idea out to be also held back because they can't afford a session player or they don't know a session player, or they live in the middle of fucking nowhere. Well that's me. I'm I'm a producer myself, and I I do I couldn't play a chord on a guitar, but I frequently hear something where like I want a guitar part in a song, and my options are pretty limited. I could go look for a loop, but the odds of that loop fitting into my song perfectly are insanely small.

You know, no. So then, but then you're either gonna be gonna have to hire somebody and like do right, or you could go AI, and it's like I don't know, like, but to me, like I don't know if I think that's necessarily bad as a producer for you to do that with a guitar. Like, I don't know. Like, I I think that's I kind of think that's okay. Like, I kind of think there's certain parameters around like what you just said is you as a producer and needing a guitar part. If you used AI for that to make a song, but like then, like see, this is where it's shit gets Where do you draw a line? Where do you draw a line, A? And then B, well, where did that AI guitar come from? And what was the reference track that then got it there? And then how is that person that did that reference track, or they participated in all these things? You know, so it's just yeah, it illegally fed its algorithm millions of songs that it did not have the rights to for sure. Like, that's what I mean. That's what Suno's underwater. In hot water. That

shit that really should get worked out because at the end of the day, you're like the reference came from somewhere. Where was the reference from? And then how is that person participating? Because like if you could figure that part out, I I personally start to become a lot more okay with it. I think the regulation is the most important factor here. Like, we had. There just needs to be more oversight. They we need to figure this out at a The money. The money model, the money model, yeah, right? Of ownership and usage and rights. And I mean, this is something where I don't know, man. Like, I I know I'm I was really curious to know what Create's stance was as a company, so it's interesting to hear that y'all aren't gonna necessarily be at the forefront and bleeding edge of like we get we just launched an AI division. Like I didn't know if that was gonna be your answer because y'all are pretty like tech forward, right? And obviously AI is new tech. We very much care about it from, like I said, on an operation side. Like using it to work more efficiently and help serve your clientele.

That's right. Yeah, especially like as it pertains to kind of the data in the reporting aspect of it, right? Like, I think that that's like you know, if that can help me. get the data to the clients quicker and so forth, like I think that's or it can help like work efficiencies, like, right? Like, if I can help, you know, one of my employees that has some sort of a bottleneck due to something, and then you're able to help them with that support. I think that stuff's good. Like, I think a lot of people are using it in that way, right? But like I don't, but I you know, it man, I don't think it's being the actual artist itself is something that I'm okay with yet, personally. Like, I think that that's just like I don't know, man. It's just like the demon hunters thing is really weird to me because it's just like that's not AI, but it's also part, it's it's animation. Yeah, and like what you know. Trust me, man, it's a whole like we could spend hours on this because yeah, you know, because then I I just think like it's it's weird.

I think we hold music to this, like I don't know, we're so like Pure. it's so precious to us, right? Whereas like you would be fine, you know, avoiding hiring an assistant for us or a but you know, uh a junior level employee. And I and again, I don't want to put words in Chris's mouth and like executives that create, but like we as business owners, we're so fine with like having AI do our like admin tasks, yet like we won't be on board with like you know what I mean. I don't know, it's just like this weird, I feel like it's kind of bullshit the way that we and again I'm guilty of it too, but we kind of like pick and choose when we're okay with it, right? Like we're okay with it telling us where we should go eat or like giving us a nutrition plan instead of paying a fucking nutritionist, but we're not okay with it creating a guitar loop from you know, some AI. I don't know. I it's just for me, it's almost more like I mean, it's a it's a it's a fact. It's like, you know, I mean, it's like it you start to open up Pandora's box, but yeah, when you're talking about like I have it write a diet plan, but I'm serious, it's like it's very funny because it's like I've done both of those things. I've seen a nutrition plan, a nutritionist, and I've also like fucked around with ChatGPT to like work up meal plans and different like I've played both games, yeah.

You know, so it's just like and ChatGPT was way cheaper, probably than seeing that nutritionist. I mean, well, I guess not for me though, because insurance covers it and it's like , you know, okay. Well, fair enough. You got good benefits to create. That's good to know. Good benefits for sure. Like, I don't know. I just think it's uh I think it's a really slippery slope and a really tough question to answer. And I'm not sure that I'm smart enough and or we all know enough yet. I think with time, it's all gonna kind of un unfold, right? Like, I think that you know, people there will be boundary pushers, and that's always good. Like there's always gonna be somebody. There already are. There are people that are jumping all the way out there, and like I think that that's great because like you need people to be trailblazers in all industries and to take risks. I've got a lot of artist friends, and you know, people that are probably gonna absolutely hate that statement, but I don't mean it just as AI, I just mean it in general. Like, you've got to have risk takers in different ways to push things forward, but like we also have to be extremely responsible and uh and litigious about making sure that it's you know that if we are going to do it, that hopefully we're doing it in the right way. Like the music industry has an incredible job of giving away valuable things and letting other companies build businesses.

Viacom wouldn't exist if it'd be that monstrous conglomerate that it was for a second. Maybe it could arguably still be in MTV. If, like, literally the music industry, like explain this shit to me. We 'd spend when I was at RCA Records, we'd spend a million dollars on a fucking video. Christina Aguilera Dirty featuring Redman, right? Million dollar fucking video that we would give to MTV for free, and in fact, we would fucking ask them, please play this music video. That's insane. Thank you. Chris has not gotten over that. Stayed with him. This has been 20 years of hate from Chris. I'm gonna go watch that after this and see if it looks like a million bucks. Yeah. But like, do you know what I'm saying though? It's just like it's crazy. It's just like I mean, like, you know, even radio initially, it's just like they gave away these things to be able to build these businesses for these other industries and so forth. And it's just like that's my fear with the music industry, like always, right?

Like, you know, TikTok doesn't pay what they should for what they're benefiting from all of the music. Like AI, uh, no matter what they're gonna do, they're probably not gonna do it all the way right to where the proper people are getting the proper royalties and percentages and whatever that they should the rights, like you know, that like they like they could and should like right. Like, I know that it's not gonna be 100% right, they're gonna fuck it up some way. So it's just like, you know, because it's like there's not really a true governing board for the music industry to really kind of like handle all that stuff, right? Like, there's the the A2IM tries and so forth, but there's not one governing board all over the entire music industry that's like handling that stuff, yeah. And guys, I'm going to have to move locations for just two seconds because otherwise we're my computer's gonna die. Okay, no worries. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Here we go. I got some moving music.

Yeah, they didn't you're in New York, right? I am okay. Can you tell by the tiny size of my condo? Uh no, I just that's funny though. Yeah, that's what but no, I I just I just hate how divisive it's uh become, right? Like, even just you know, Cato on the track, who's a friend of ours, um, really active on social media, obviously. He's posting a lot about AI. Um, and just it just seems to be causing a huge divide within the community, which I just don't think is what the community needs. Like, I want us to be like uplifting each other and not being extremely like judgmental and critical, right? Like seeing that baby Tate post, like I love Tate as an artist, right? I think she's incredible, extremely talented. Um, but I didn't love that. Because again, like it's this, it's this girl who obviously like, I mean, God, like just the way she was kind of attacking her. I was like, Jesus, this girl's just like trying to turn her poetry, like skills and her like tech prompting skills into art that people clearly are consuming at some level. I don't know, it just seemed like why the fuck are we so like you know?

But again, there's the the reasons why just that why that we just described that is why people are so passionate, but it's like, ah man, I just wish we would be a little more like I don't know. It's just it's the same story with every new technology, you know. When Spotify came out, when Auto Tune was invented, when Splice came out, and everyone had access to millions of loops to pop in and then say that they have a you know a beat made already. It's just it's just the nature of it until it gets worked out for sure. Well, that's right, yeah. We definitely can't go this whole podcast without talking about Sublime Henry, one of my favorite groups of all time. I literally like it's you like there's those songs and those groups where you can just like place yourself like back to where you first heard them, like certain moments in my life, like I can vividly remember I was in high school at my friend's lake house, his parents weren't there, we threw a huge party. We were, I was blackout, or I guess not blackout because I remember it, but like as close to being blackout drunk as possible, making burgers on a stovetop or something.

I don't even know what I was doing. And I just remember everyone that was there, and I just remember Sublime was just we were playing all Sublime. That was your guide for the night. So so how did that signing come about? And like why sign Sublime? What are you gonna be doing with Sublime? What's the trajectory look like? Like just walk us through that whole kind of process and and like what you're up to with them. Sure. Um, I think it starts with I I love I am a passionate rock music person. I'm very much uh, you know, when I was coming into my taste as a teenager, rock music in the grunge scene was huge, as was hip hop, and that's kind of where my musical taste got established. Um, so I believe rock music's coming back. I don't think I think it was in kind of a bad place. I never thought it really truly went away, but I just didn't think there was a lot of very exciting things out there, in my opinion. There are things that were getting kind of critical mass. And I think in the past couple years, it's been bubbling up, and I think in the past year it's even kind of starting to get to like a really like good place, and there's a lot of exciting stuff.

There's exciting bands in New York City like The Thing, there's you know, bands like The Paradox that are you know, I've never seen anything like that. Like, right. It's the craziest shit ever. So great, like you know, and then you know, the turnstile, like all the you know, sleep token, it's like all this crap's going on, right? Like in in rock, and it's great. And so I have been trying to and want to expand, create uh exposure and rock, and so I've kind of signed a couple of smaller bands and was looking for a larger band to sign because I believe when you're building out a rock department or any music department, um, genre-based department, I think it's really smart to have a couple of developing bands that are buzzing if you can get them, and then kind of a household name, right? Like just because when you're trying you like you need to sound if you at least don't know like what you're doing, right? Like, and so it's like, if you have an established band, people are like, oh, like you've got a big band, you know what you're doing.

You got some buzzing bands, like people, and then you can kind of fill in the middle, right? And so I was trying to find a band, a big band that made sense and so forth. A good friend of mine and someone I admire a lot, Kevin Zinger, is managing Sublime and has been managing them since the son Jacob took over. Okay. Um, because they were Sublime with Rome for a while, um, between kind of Bradley, the original singer's death and the current uh lineup. And so he was managing them and like they were kind of starting to do some things, and I just thought it was really interesting, and then I heard the song, and it's the music to me. Like, I think that for a band like Sublime, like yourself that has a special place in my heart, I don't want to touch it unless I can do right by it, right? Like I wouldn't want to be involved unless I feel like that it's something that can be that we can do well. And so I thought the team around it was m amazing and I'm dear friends with.

I thought the music was incredible, and I thought the story was incredible. I mean, like, there's really something truly beautiful about like the son of the original singer with the two original band members like getting together and making music. Like, that's fucking rad. Like myself, yes. Like, I don't like I think there's I don't know if there's many other stories like that in music. Like, you know, I mean, I think we're now starting to see, and I might be familiar with a few more of them than others. Like, I know Slash has a son that plays music. I know that like the bassist for Metallica has son that plays music that's rad, like you know, like some of these younger, some of the um, you know, the lead singer of Corn's son actually does dance music and it's fucking great. Like it's which is like like you know, like there's these, they're like now kind of, you know, and a lot of people might hate them because like Nepo babies and like the whole thing, but like um Is it the Van Halen kid who like has a band where he plays every instrument? I think it's pretty sick, dude.

Oh, I don't know. Oh yeah, send that to Chris now. Look into that. Please, yeah, please, please. So anyway, so um, so I just thought it was great, and we were able to, they were kind enough to you know, do a deal with me and then with Create and then kind of building with them. And so, you know, hopefully we're gonna be building with their team and doing a lot more stuff, uh, you know, and and I really try to go up from here because it's like I think best run music companies are in all genres. I think it's really smart and good on a like if you're like a boutique record label or like to kind of build in a niche or a sub-niche and or a subgenre and then kind of or even like a main genre, but like I think for a company like Create Size, just like the majors, it's important to be in all all genres of music. And so, like, I you know, especially with rock kind of coming back and starting to make more money. I mean, and who knows, right? Like, we all see we like the other part of our feeds is we all get fed the same bullshit. So I'm sure we all saw and everybody watching this, or the three people that will see me speak, right?

Like, you're going to be like I've seen the meme that um you know no hip hop songs in the top 40 for the first time in X amount of years, huge like so which is like I don't know, does that mean anything? Why somebody decided to call that out? Who knows? But like, could that be because uh some of these other genres are starting to kind of emerge? Because like people get burned out, and I think people are also I'm not I'm certainly not trying to get political, but I think we all just saw the politics and like these mayoral elections, and you know, like the swing was the other way because of the reaction. And I think that like music, I think all aspects of life, like it says, I believe in a pendulum swing, and so I think that like eventually it hip hop might not be the dominant genre. Will rock, I don't know, could be R&B, could be dance, could be country, could be pop, could be some shit that doesn't even invented yet, or that we know about or talking about. But like, oh god, no, God damn it. Yeah, he didn't mean it, guys.

He didn't mean it. Just you know, open to the I don't want it to happen. But I just think it's all gonna change, right? Like, and so I think that at the very least, it's something that I love, and we had great success with, and so like you know, to be able to work this band and I think do it justice. Like, we had the longest number one song it the active rock format of 2025. That's fucking great. Oh, wow. And like, we not only that, but like what I got, and that's like things that I wouldn't have known had I not worked with the band, and like we're paying attention to these stats and so forth. It's kind of like I kind of felt like I was like, you know, in a like those games of where like those players come off and they're like, Did you know that you did this and that tonight? And they're like, What? Like, I have no idea. or they'll pretend like they didn't know and they did, and it's just like we what I got spent in three weeks at number one. What this is still spent seven weeks at number one. Wow. over double what I got.

Oh my gosh, perspective. Like to think about that, and to be somebody like yourself who like Sublime was important too, and so forth. It's just like fuck that's fucking cool. Like, I just makes you feel good. Like, I feel I feel good that my buddy trusted create and I to work this project and that those are results. I feel good that the legacy of the band, like I read, like for when the first song first came out and the video first came out, you know, like trying to read all of the online sentiment and just kind of hearing the online sentiment of like old Sublime fans are like, holy shit, this is good. This sounds like Bradley Bradley would be so proud. You're like, fuck yeah, you did it. I did that. Yes, that's a win. No, that's the stuff. Like at the end of the day, we're all in music, or I think a lot of people are in the music industry because they love it, right? Like, you guys don't do this stuff because it's paying millions of dollars. You're goddamn right.

Like goddamn right. Chris just outed us, bro. He's like, We know you're podcasters in the music industry. It's true. No, not that, but like it's not, it's not, it's not like it's all even like it's a passion business. Of course. Cool things that you love. Yes. Feels really good. Yes, absolutely. So did you all um just sign them to do the new music, or was it also a catalog buyout? Because I know you've been buying catalogs as well. Like crazy. I'm gonna show all my cards. Um, no, the um it was yeah, it was just for the new music. Did you try to buy the? I mean, again, you don't have to answer any of these questions, but like what's the right? I mean, it's not available right now, so there's not anything to try or to be discussing. Okay, Interesting. I think there's a lot of stuff that rights will be reverting in the near future that'll be interesting for a lot of people. I think that you will continue to see the M&A trend of the music industry, and you'll see a lot of catalogs and publishing, I think, in the next 10 years that we'll be exchanging hands.

Because it's like, you know, it's it only makes sense, right? Like a lot of the artists, I think it's really good estate planning. It's it's a lot easier to divvy up cash than it is to divvy up percentages of royalties on records and contracts. So is that the reason? I was gonna ask you, like, what why is this happening all of a sudden? Because I feel like again, I think a lot of it is different reasons, right? I think I don't I don't know, and I like because it's like I don't know these artists personally, but I like I I can make assumptions and guesses, right? Like, you know, I think some of it's estate planning. I think some of it is situational potentially, right? Like, you know, I think there's some artists that maybe don't want to tour anymore who like maybe have like maybe I can go get 20 million for my catalog, and I don't have to like do it anymore. Yeah, yeah. I I think there's some of it it's that. I think some of it is like I and I think that you know, all of the 70 plus year olds, I I have to assume it's estate planning. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But even like but even smaller artists, man, I feel like even even down to like like smaller level artists, I feel like even that I see ads all the time, like of companies that are willing to like buy catalogs based on you know four X your monthly or whatever, right? Like there's all these formulas, like what why has catalog become such a thing? Well, because it's a great investment. Like if a company believes that they can I think like I I would much rather own the Beatles catalog than like anything else in the planet. But is that because you love music? Or is that because it's a financial thing? I just think it's one of the safest possible things. I think in bad economic times, right? Like market can go up and down based on the economy. Like homeowning and prices will go up and down based on that. Even Bitcoin and all of the crypto, like will go up and down based on certain things, right?

The bottom falls out from literally everything, right? What is one of the last two things to go? And maybe like changing now because people are consuming less alcohol. But historically, the last two things people pick out the door are fucking booze and like music. Right? I've never thought of this. I was literally like, why the fuck is like is everyone buying catalogs? But like, you know what I'm saying? Like, people like you're gonna think about it. Like, times get tough. You might be like, all right, well, I'm not gonna go on vacation. All right, I'm not gonna buy like new stuff, but like you're gonna hold on to your Spotify or Apple music or subscription, or worst case scenario, you hold on to your internet and you'll go to YouTube, right? Like, you know, and so it's like you'll still consume music and different things. And I think that like unless you're like a Netflix person in which like or something, and maybe you keep your video streaming because you might be a like video consumer versus music or whatever. But I think it's one of the last things to go. And so I think it's just like I haven't run the numbers on this, but I bet if you lined up the Beatles catalog sales versus the S&P 500. But I might do it later just because I fucking didn't know, but it is, like, like, if I look at

it, but I'm just saying, like, you know, I think it's a I think it's a safe investment. And so I think because it's like a whole new asset class will be listening to it. It's gonna constantly be returning a revenue. Like those are all like good things for generally for people, right? Like, even like a lot of artists are creatives who sometimes maybe aren't stronger in like money management, right? Yeah, but if they get fifty thousand dollars every month and that shows up from their music royalties because they've been putting out and build up a hell of a catalog, like that is something that I think is pretty valuable, right? Like, that's like kind of almost like a that's a that's a salary, like that to them, right? Like for ownership of art creation, which is like so rad. I know so many independent artists who like aren't known on a national scale, who have really nice lives. You know, like are they driving around in Ferraris? No, but like, do they have Audis and own their homes and go on a decent amount of vacations?

Yes, yeah. I just always wondered if it was because people aren't um looking for new music as much. I didn't know if it was having to do with like catalog nostalgia, you know what I mean? I didn't know if that was what was driving any of it. I think the data says from as best as much as I understand it, like a lot of people kind of get stuck musically and will continue to listen to things of a certain time, right? Like most people, if you think about like like common arc of us, like non-music folks, they are you know, have tons of time as a kid and listening to music and in high school and listening to music in college and all these things, or what if that's their path or whatever, and then they get a job in a family. But once you get a job in a family, like you're my buddies that like have kids and jobs don't have free time, at least not the first like five years that those kids are on planet, and like, and then if they stack them up a couple in a row, like I've literally like lost friends for like six years, and then like they're they'll come back into orbit, like when like you know, like born is like C in five years, and then like kids like six, and it's like, okay, cool, my friends can now go to concerts and like sports games with me and shit. on Thursday. Like, all right, cool.

Like, you know, it's like they just like so. I think that because of that, you just don't have the time to do the music discovery. So, like, what you but you have your routines and it doesn't happen. So, I think most people get stuck in a literally a period of time. Like, most of my friends, I've got a decent amount more than most, probably, because I love music, who are not like my music industry buddies, like right, like my like my friends outside of the business. Half of them are like because I love music, and that's who the friends I made and so forth. They like music discovery and concerts and stuff, but like my other half, listen to the same shit that they fucking were in high school, like dude. I'm literally the friend that's out of orbit right now. Like, Henry's my only friend, other than my three and a half year old and two year old. Like, that's that's true. All I I'm like, it's it consumes you, man. So, yeah, like even me being like your music discovery. Exactly, it's shit, it's shit, bro.

Like, like, shout out to Spotify, you know, like just kind of shuffle mode to just suggest new stuff. Because, like, if it wasn't for that, and then obviously our community, I listen to more one more time podcast community members and like people that I've interviewed, like that's what I listen to. Like, we even talked about it recently, right? Yeah, of like me just loving these artists that I've been able to like have on the pod. And it's just because again, like we established a you know, personal connection, like listening to their music kind of just hits different, whatever. And obviously, I was fans enough of them to you know spend time bringing them on the show, thought they were like worth it for our audience. But yeah, man, my music discovery outside of that, it is tough, and I could just totally see exactly what you're saying. If I wasn't in, I'm in, I work in the music space with this shit. So it's like if I wasn't, there would be none happening, like absolutely none happening, and that so then I think that there's a lot of people, like, right? Like, you know, I mean, like, my aunt, not like my aunt is so excited. She's going to Paul McCartney tomorrow night, and she's seen Paul McCartney, I think, like fucking 45 times or something. Like that, you know, like and she's been like, look at what Oasis happened when that came back

Oh my gosh. That was so funny. And so it's just like, I don't know. I think if you're fortunate enough to make money off of an album and get to a certain level, like, I don't know, I think it sticks, like, right? Like, you know, I would love, I would love to own my favorite albums. Like, that would be so cool. Like, I think, and it's cool when people get to go do stuff. Like, how cool is it that Snoop went and got Death Row back? Like, or whatever. Like, that's like fucking that's rad, and like you have these guys and like have their labels or get to go buy their masters back or different things. Like, I think that's great. Like, I I don't know, I was here for it when like Taylor Swift like got her masters back and was going through all of those things. Like, I like those stories because it's just like I think the importance of that, because it's like art and like owning your own art is critical. For sure. Well, Chris, we've entered a final segment of the podcast. Henry, take us home, my friend. My favorite segment.

Let's let's see here. So, Chris, this is the rapid fire rampage. I'm gonna break it down into three separate sections. I'll explain them as we go. The first one is just a short answer question. Just give me some quick responses to these. You are not judged by your answers, you were only judged on speed. What are what are three immediate red flags to an artist pitching themselves to you? An artist pitching themselves to me, if they tell me that they're the best that I've ever heard, that they're going to in it because they're in it for money. Uh I'm not sure what the third would be. Those are kind of my biggest two red flags. A third would be that they are self-managed. What is the last work call you made? What was it about? My last work call was right before this with my head of my A&R admin department uh talking about our process for some of our Salesforce stuff.

Oh is everything okay? Everything's great. Okay. It's like operational Salesforce organization. Okay. Makes sense. Can you think of a super creative and super low budget marketing campaign you saw? A super creative, super low budget marketing campaign. So get some of our less financially, you know, people watching excited. It wasn't it wasn't really really like it was like I think like I don't know, like 10 grand or so, which is fairly low, but I don't know the exact number, but what Lexa Gates did in New York City when she put the glass box around herself, I thought that was fucking dope as shit. And then, like, whatever it was, the what what's the TV? The TV show then ripped it off and did it too. And then I was like, oh wow, like you really nailed it. Like there was one of the big TV shows that did it on Wall Street. Like really, I swear to God. Oh my god, to have your marketing rollout get bit by like a big network or something. That's fire.

Yeah, no, yeah, it was fire. So I thought that was pretty dope. Whose idea was that? Whose idea was that? My understanding is it was hers. She's so fucking dope. Shout out to Shipes always doing it, man. Like, yeah, that was my understanding. That was her idea that, like, and I, you know, and then like also shout out to them for supporting it. Yeah. Like, like, straight up, like, I'm gonna be honest. An artist is gonna come to me in like 2025, and I'm gonna be like, yeah. Like, I don't, that's a big risk, and like that's where we're gonna put our that's where we're gonna, that's where we're gonna make our bet. Yeah, and they let they let her let her fly. Yeah, it's great. I love that. What is one music industry myth that you just wish would die already? All the people that work in the music industry are bad and sleazy. Me too. Me too. Only some of them. Um Chris, you've just been appointed supreme leader of the music industry. You have the power to do anything that you want.

What is your first order of business? I think we need to try to figure out community for the entire business and get people collaborating versus competing. I think we need to try to figure out how to get benefits to artists. So if I get a like being the lead chair for that, and I think that trying to support some of the better initiatives, like um mental health and awareness, I think, and and the industry, I think is an incredibly important. So it's just like, I don't know, man. Like, I think that it's just like we're way too divided right now. Like everybody in the world, and then the music industry is just like trying to beat out everybody else, and it's just like there's room for everybody, guys. The pie is huge. We can all eat. Word. Bro, when you told him the best answer to that. when you told him he was gonna be Supreme Leader, though, he lit the fuck up, bro. Like Chris was like he's like, is this a real is this a real job opportunity? Like, where can I apply to I love it?

I love it. This guy lit the fuck up, man. You saw that. I appreciate that you saw that. I like damn, he's way too excited about this. It was my Wu-Tang name. I thought I was like, you know, Supreme Clientele here. Oh shit. Like it. Last one of the short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Fuck. Classic. It's a classic. Love it. It's a good one. It's like it's the New York Hello, right? It's The New York Hello. That's right. The next section is the this or that. Chris, I'm gonna give you two choices. I just need you to pick one. Starting with mass appeal or cult following? Mass appeal. Hard data or gut instinct. Gut instinct. Rebrand or refresh? Rebrand? EDM or hip hop? EDM, maybe right now. Currently. He's bullish. Currently. On dance music right now, man. No hip hop tracks in the top 40. And how many weeks? Yeah. anyway?

Uh do less better or throw everything at the wall. Do less better. Small venue headliner or daytime slot at a major festival. Small. Depends on what I'm trying to do. Small time headliner. Okay. Pet goat or pet llama? Goat. TikTok viral or YouTube viral? YouTube. Pressure or peace. Peace. And finally become a full-time rapper or leave the music industry forever. Full-time rapper, for sure. Fucking goat. What was your name? You already had a name picked out. Yeah, you already do. Supreme Leader? Yeah, Supreme Leader might be it. I don't know. I might take 2 Chainz old name and go by Titty Boy. Titty Boy. I might call and be like, 2 Chainz, you don't think he's that anymore. Like, can I help you? It's available. I'm just imagining this real call happening between 2 Chainz and Chris. I love it. The last section.

I want to get your old moniker, sir. Please. Yeah. That's me now. Sorry. Absolutely fire. So the last section is the word association, Chris. I'm going to say one word, and you just got to say the first word that you think of off the top of your head. Not judged on speed. Or only judged on speed, once again, not your actual word. Any word is fine. Starting with music. Love. Streaming. Service. Algorithm. Online. Indie. Label. Marijuana. Yes. Fan base. Important. Viral. Media. The letter Q. Schoolboy? Oh, nice answer. Good one. Red tape. Major label. Yep.

He said all that nice shit about him at the beginning just to cover his ass. No, I mean, I've had to do it. Okay, Chris. We know. We know. No judgment. Speed. Oh, we're judging. No, no, no. Well, I mean, there's some corporate waste going on, right? Come on. Anyway. Totally fair to judge. Coffee. Need. Underground. Sound. AI. Conversations. S P 500. Uh, Beatles Catalog. Bitcoin. Yes, please. Cincinnati. Ohio. Create. Music. Let's go. What a rampage. What a goddamn rampage. Man. One for the ages, ladies and gentlemen? That was fast. That was good. That was rapid. All three sections, very quality answers and speed. Yeah. Gotta give it to them. Thank you so much. And quality conversation, man. Thanks for coming on.

If y'all didn't learn something, yeah. Appreciate you coming on the podcast, bro. Seriously, full circle moment. Love what you would love what you've done, love what you're doing. Can't wait to see what you do next. Until next time, Henry, what are we doing? Getting out of here. Getting the fuck out of here. Peace, y'all. Bye-bye.