How to Not Get SCREWED as a Songwriter

If a song comes out and people are still arguing about the splits, you don't make any money off of it. It sounds like just a headache. Don't torpedo something over like a few percentages. Who gets what? How are we splitting this song? Publishing should really be reserved for the people that are creating the intellectual property. Can you give us like a peek behind the curtain on the financials of being the songwriter? If you had a hit song in 2005, you could buy a house with that. That's not the case anymore. Let me ask this. What's the biggest advance you've given? I've worked on deals that are like one time. On this episode of the One More Time podcast, we sit down with Cabrea Casey, director of AR in Sync at Downtown Music Publishing. She's helped countless artists, writers, producers navigate the business of collaboration. I'm talking major label hits to indie smashes. We dive into all things publishing.

I'm talking how song splits are either peacefully decided upon or maybe fought to the death over. The most underrated way to make sure you get invited to every songwriting session and why so many artists get burned by poor communication and lack of paperwork. If you're an independent artist, you have to understand how to protect yourself when it comes to working with others. This episode is a crash course in co-writing, collaboration, and making sure that you get paid what you deserve when you work on a song. Let's get into it. We got Cabrea Casey on the podcast. Henry, director of AR and Sync at Downtown Music Publishing. Appreciate you coming on the pod. Thank you, Cabrea. Yes. Yeah, so I I feel like business and creative like oftentimes are at odds. Water and oil, my friend. They're just, you know, in the music business, I feel like uh the biggest challenge that a lot of artists have is knowing what's true to them from like a creative standpoint, but then also, you know, trying to make careers off of their art, and that's where like the business comes into play, right? And I feel like those two things are are often at odds.

Um, and I think it it really manifests itself in a big way when it comes to you know how ownership is divided when it comes to who worked on a song, who did what. So from your you know, 10 plus years experience right in the game on both obviously the sync side, and then you know, most recently on the AR and Sync side, what what have you seen as kind of like an extreme example of this going wrong? Yeah, I mean, I I do agree where sometimes like bringing in the business can like interrupt the flow of the creation. Um, if you're in a room and things feel good, you don't want to like fuck up that energy by being like, and then um I just wrote that line. So what percentage does that because then it's just like a fragmented and like it like all the spirit is gone. Yep.

Um, so I I totally feel for that. But yeah, just to give you some like um consequences, I think that can happen when you like don't figure things out, is you know, um I've worked in sync for a long time as well as and then and now more recently in AR. And so on the sync perspective, if you are gonna license your song, if like a film is gonna use your song or an ad, um, they need to clear that song by all interested parties. So that's on the master side and on the publishing side. So if you you know get like if Dave came in to play like a bass line on a song that you wrote, and you even wrote the bass part, but like you wanted him to come in and and play it, and maybe you didn't have money to pay him for the session, or you know, he's a good friend of yours, or you know, you you just wanted him to take time. So you said, I'll give you publishing on this, and that's kind of how you'll pay him in the back end, which that does happen. Like, people do that.

I get it. Like, sometimes you don't have the money up front. Um, but then you and Dave like have a big falling out. Fuck Dave. Damn Dave. Literally. yeah. And and so, like, what happens when like, you know, Adidas is calling and they're like, hey, we want to use your song, and you're like, Great, I have 95% percent of it. Uh, but then five percent is this guy, Dave. And he either he could be at the beach that day, he could be like, fuck, fuck this guy. We got in a fight, I'm not gonna answer. I'm not gonna you know what I mean? Like, there's just so I've seen so many things fall apart because one rights holder was unavailable. You see a lot of um people that write for sync using like as few co-writers as possible as a result of this. Yes, or honestly, if if you're like really writing for sync and that's like a sync session, those writers are like, because that's the goal in mind are pretty buttoned up and are like okay, this is like we're leaving the session with we know what everybody has, and these are the contacts. And um, and if someone is coming in and maybe doesn't have representation or doesn't have publishing, sometimes like that producer or writer depending might have them kind of sign something that says, you know, they waive their approval.

So they'll still get money for it. Um, they'll still have like the their percentage like accounted to them, but they've waived their right to approval so that as not to like mess up the flow of getting a license. That I've seen that happen, which is a good way to protect yourself, especially if you have someone coming in that doesn't do it that often and it's kind of like, and and they're like, Yeah, I mean, I'll also say yes to whatever you say yes to, so go ahead. Yeah, so you mentioned like the probably most, you know, I guess obviously bad example of when you should bring up like splits, you know, for a song, right? Like, don't probably write a lyric and then raise your hand and be like, so you know, I'm gonna need five percent for that. But I I think it it begs the question that a lot of artists and writers and producers that I know, they struggle with this shit. I mean, shit, even when you know, I was working with you on like the management side of, you know, because Henry's a producer, it would be like we would have to have those conversations down the road. And sometimes, like, if you wait too long, it's uncomfortable. If you bring it up too early, it's uncomfortable.

So, like, when when do you recommend you know, creatives have the conversation around who gets what? How are we splitting this song? It's a lot of it's subjective, right? And it's about reading the room. But I think um what I would always advise is like at the end of the session, kind of having a check-in about it. Um, there are places, like for instance, and I know we've talked about this, but like Nashville is a very like regimented place, and they have kind of a way of doing things when it comes to writing, and it's always like even splits for everybody in the room, which is very like I guess a very easy, like egalitarian way to do it. Um, but that's not that's not the case in like other cities and other like cultures in songwriting, I guess, if that's the way to do it. But I I think like having a check-in at the end of the session, also sometimes like the song's not done. Like, if the song's not done and then it's gonna be sent to other people and other people are gonna work on it, you can't really have that conversation because it it's not in its final form yet. Um, but I think getting an understanding with everybody and and also just like figuring out whose team is who and just and just talking about how it came about.

I feel like a lot of people look at credits of you know, big pop songs, and there's tons of writers listed. Um, and I think there's you know certain reasons for that. But just generally speaking, do you have an opinion on like how many people is too many people on a song? Too many cooks in the kitchen. Yeah, like I mean, I think it just depend like I I think sometimes like a lot of people work on a song, but it's usually because that song's been passed around, and maybe this like one producer created a beat, but then this other producer came in and edited that around and did something, and then someone came in and wrote a hook, and then they took the hook, and then that artist came in and then they wrote the verses. Like a song, like a song can have a lot of writers without everyone have had been in one room to write the song. I I want to say I feel like every time, like, for instance, like every time Beyoncé gets an award or anything, people are like, first of all, don't come for my girl like that. But like they're like, there's 18 writers on this song.

How many songs? Whatever. And you're like, okay, well, yeah, a lot of a lot of songs that have 18 writers, it's usually because of interpolations and because of samples. And it's like, well, yeah, like the whole point of Renaissance was for her to like take house music and like pay homage to all these creators and interpolate things and sample things. And so if you're sampling a song, then and that song had four writers on it. They're all on your song now. On your song. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of comes into play too. I mean, it it can be painful. I've seen it happen like on the sync side when you're trying to clear a sink. Like it's it's kind of painful when you have to clear like 18 different writers. But if it's a great song, like that's what those people are trying to do is to clear that stuff. Bro, it sounds like just a headache. Like, if I was a creative, I would be so scared to have a lot of people work on the song just because of all these reasons, man. It just sounds like I mean, you better be bringing some fucking value. Like, yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I just feel like touching one snare or doing this, that, and the third, like I do think like if someone comes in and touches a snare, I do not think you should give them publishing for it. Like you it really has to be like, did they contribute to the the creation of the song? And did they like put in a perspective that wasn't already there? It's not just like playing on it. Um I've like speaking of horror stories, um, like there have been times where you know, like a band goes in with a producer, and and then ahead of time that it might be like a kind of a bigger producer, or they know that they come in with mostly finished songs, but they know like to get that producer, or because that producer is such a like point of view, they're like, Okay, we'll we'll give you publishing, like you're gonna help us produce it. We're bringing you make mostly full songs, but you're gonna add to add to things and maybe bring us to a level where the song could not have gone. And so you give publishing to that that person, but then I've seen it where that producer then like brings in someone to play an instrument, and they're like, Oh, I just I really want like this is my guy, and I really want him to play like trumpet or something. And then, and then down the road is like, wait, Dave was there.

Like, sorry, I don't know, I'm like, Dave is always there. Do you have an ex named Dave that you're pissed off at? Or Dave is always here to fuck shit up, man. But like been like he was in the room, he was there, he played, he deserves publishing. And and then there's like now this after like a fight afterwards where things felt like it was agreed upon. And then you find out, oh my god, Dave is signed to that producer's publishing. So really he's just not even advocating for his friend. He's like actually going to monetize, like he's trying to get more percentage for him. He's trying to get more of himself in the end. So like that I that I've seen that happen. And and that's it's a bummer. I think most people don't do that. Most people don't operate like that, but there are some people that like kind of try to take advantage of things and and you know, like use their position in the industry to like get a little bit more than they deserve. And I think sometimes that is like a trade-off to have like the input of that person and maybe like the reach of them. Um, but sometimes it can kind of like it's like where does this end?

And like how many more people are you gonna now demand like just because they came in and and played a part that I had already written, like that that has nothing to do with the publishing, you know? Sums up the music industry in general, right there. I think we've been talking a lot about splits. I wanted to pause the episode real quick to let you guys know that Songtrust has given us and you a free resource called the ultimate split sheet. You can download it, you can print it out. This is what you take to your sessions to make sure you or anyone else is not getting screwed over. I put the link in the description for you. Enjoy. If we are in agreement on the like percentages, how do we put that in to like effect? You know what I mean? Like what's what's the agreement that we're doing, I guess. Yeah, so there are these like split sheets that are really helpful for that. It's like a great tool. It's it's a kind of like whether you do it digitally or like have like a printout or something, but um kind of just like it's everyone agreeing, like it basically agreeing on the song and agreeing on the percentage. And it's like you put down everyone's names, like full names, what PRO they are associated with.

Um like ASCAp, BMI, et cetera. Okay. Yeah. Um, and then and then honestly, what's even more helpful, is like if you can because everyone, if you sign up to a PRO, you get like almost like a like the your version of like a social security number for that, or like um like a member ID or something. So an IPI? An IPI, yep, IPI or CAE, like they're kind of interchangeable, people call them either one. Um, if you can have everybody write down that, um, and what percentage, and then just like everybody signs it. And sometimes that's like it's really helpful to have a split sheet because it just has everything there and you have it and you have it for your own records, and that way if like a dispute comes later, you have like here it is the official thing, everyone signed it. Um sometimes like there's a version of split sheet that's kind of on the form of like an email chain, just like something in writing where you can point to and say, We all agreed that like I had 25% and they had 25%, and now it's registered, and maybe if there's a discrepancy, you can kind of use that to have it go back and be edited. If a song is in dispute, if people are like the song comes out and people are still arguing about the splits, you don't make any money off of it.

That's right. If if if multiple people are claiming different percentages off a song, you make no money, it just sits there and it just collects dust, and like no one has access to it until it's settled. And so, like, um I think if you don't want your song to be in a black hole, like you want to be able to agree to stuff, and so sometimes I think being agreeable, it it can work, but you you you I don't want anyone to get taken advantage of, and I want people to like advocate for themselves, but it's not worth having a song just like in the black hole of that. I mean, like, in even songs that are like you have like blurred lines, right? That has like the whole court case about whether or not Marvin Gaye's estate like um deserves some publishing on it. That song has it's been in the black box, like no one can make money off of it because it's just been in court and it's been in dispute this whole time. Yeah, you know, so and and so I mean you mentioned kind of the the culture of you know even splits in a city like Nashville, but you also alluded to the fact that like not every you know session or every song is gonna adhere to that like even split type of approach. So I I guess my question would be you know, when it's not even splits, how should people be like evaluating what do I get, right?

Like you mentioned, you know, I wrote one line and then someone's like asking for some percentage. I mean, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like what factors go into the who gets what? Because I mean, not everything's gonna be kumbaya, like even split type of scenario. So I'm wondering when it's not like that, what goes into it? Yeah, I mean, it's such a good question. I wish that there was like a rule book or a rate or like a a way to kind of measure what your input is to something, but because this is art and some stuff is subjective, it's hard. I mean, I think like if you are providing a hook or a chord, like if you're like I wrote all what's easiest, like I wrote all the lyrics and then they did all the like the instruments and all the instrumentation, like 50-50, you know, like that's great and nice and easy. Um, but yeah, I think it can be it's it's hard. I like I wish I had a better like answer for you, but I think in general, like if you're going into a room, like I would say most people like want to have a good relationship with everybody, most people want to work together again. Um, I think it's really just about being transparent and being like not afraid to have those conversations, but also not having them and like being like open where you can say, hey, like I really felt like I like you know, when I when I came in, I've really felt like I did the lion's share of the lyrics, and I would I think I should have 35% or something.

And and if someone else is like, yeah, but I did X, Y, and Z, it's like being prepared to have a conversation about it. Um negotiation almost. But like, I yeah, I know Yeah, absolutely. And you can have like if you have a team, if you have management, you can absolutely you can like say this that's part of the reason you have a team is to like not be like, I just want to be chill with this writer, and like I want you to advocate for me, and like I don't want any weirdness between us, let's let our let's let our people do it. But I would say if you are doing that, if you're having someone else handle like the negotiations for you, um, that's great. Let them be bad cop, but also be aware of everything that's going on because this person does represent you. And you know, sometimes you have a manager that can like torpedo something that you would not have wanted. And so if you have someone negotiating on your behalf be on BCC or just like know everything that's going on so that you can kind of step in if things are going in a way that you don't like, because ultimately they are a representation of you, and so like the more informed you are, the more empowered you are to kind of move through the industry. So I think I think just keeping the art as pure as possible and the creative vibes flowing is the most important part at the end of the day, which is why people have teams.

Yeah, but I mean, so you get the best product. I know, but but how much do you feel like newer and less established writers get kind of like walked out? I don't know, I could see like being a situation where, like, dude, if you're new, oh yeah, and you don't have the cred yet, I feel like you just would get walked on. You don't have a team. Yeah, I oh absolutely I mean, yeah, I think when you're new, absolutely, there's lots of opportunity for people to walk all over you. I think it's kind of like a balancing game of um of being like, I want to keep doing this and I want to keep getting asked back and I want to like keep growing my network, but I also want to value myself and my work and my worth. Um, and I think sometimes it's like, I think don't torpedo something over like a few percentages is like would be my like if like you know, say you're like, I really think I should have gotten 30%, percent. but everyone is like trying to get you down to 25. Like if that keeps a piece and means that you're gonna be they're bringing you in for their next album and everything like that, then it's worth it.

That's like a trade-off, right? But if it's a big gap, or if it you really feel like you're getting completely fucked over and you're like, I wrote this whole song, um, I think I think it is okay to stand up for yourself. I mean, this is what's nice about having a team again, because I do think people are less like even if you're a new songwriter, like we have a writer that got a sample on a really big hip hop track, and the industry standard of like how much of the sample was used in the track would have demanded like a 30 to 40 percent. And he was brand new, he had never worked with any of these producers, and we were able to get him exactly that because it was like you can't mess, you know what I mean? Like we work on this all the time. We can we know what we can demand. But I think if he had not had representation, there is a chance that he would have they would have been like they would have lowballed him initially. Um so I think it's like it's all negotiation. I think you like try to get as much as you can without burning the bridge, is always my and again. I I I wish I could give you like definitive answers.

I feel like there's a lot of nuance here. Um, but I think always advocate for yourself, but also like understand the bigger picture and and and realize and like you know, it like maybe you lose this battle, but you're winning the end game, right? Yeah, and if you guys are artists and you're just listening to all this like negotiation talk and all this business talk, and you're just thinking like this is not for me. Run, run. This should like put a real battery in your back for how important it's gonna be to get like a business partner, a manager, like you you need because somebody has to fill that role for you to make any type of real progress in this industry, and it's fine if it's not you, but you gotta find that person. I hate to interrupt this episode, but guys, I got one thing on the mind right now, and it's data. I can't stop thinking about it. All the artists in 2024 are winning because of data. They know who their fans are, they have access to their fans. Do you? Spotify is not telling you who your fans are. Apple Music ain't telling you who your fans are. But our friends over at DistroKid created a feature called HyperFollow.

Every single release, you can set up a pre-save campaign with a HyperFollow and get access to every single fan's email address. Now you can let them know when you have a show coming up, when you're dropping exclusive merch, when you're going live. And without the data, you're just bound by the algorithms of TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. No more relying on those platforms. We're going straight to our fans. DistroKid is the best DIY distributor. You can upload unlimited music for a ridiculously low rate. And you're gonna have access to features like HyperFollow. OMTdistro.com, you're gonna get 30% off when you sign up for DistroKid, and you can start collecting your fans' data today. Henry, let's get back into it. So, what are the different what are the different types of deals someone can have when it comes to publishing? Yeah, so there's co-publishing deals and then admin deals. Um co-publishing is the more traditional. You're basically kind of selling your copyright to the publisher, and they're investing in and like in your ability to write in your copyrights before even they're created sometimes. So it's kind of like um if I write a song and it's 100%, and I decide I have a co-pub deal, um, that means the publisher gave me a big advance, and maybe our our rate is like 5050 just to make things like easy on my brain.

Um, that means that like when you write a song at 100%, you're you've actually already sold 50% of that to the publisher. You're selling your assets, and sometimes those assets haven't even been written yet. Um, and the reason to do a co-pub deal is like you get more of an advance, you get more of like like traditionally it's like more of an investment. Like the reason a publisher is like buying into half of your copyrights is because they believe in you and they're gonna kind of take you and set you up in lots of different sessions and really like grow your career and be kind of um just like a big cheerleader and advocate for what you're doing. And and if you are signing a co-pub deal, there should be, I would suggest like there should be a lot of creative support, and you should be like the the reason I'm selling part of my copyright is because A, I need some money, and B, I want the machine to take me to the next step. Give me the machine, like give me the resources, yeah.

Put me in the system. Put me in rooms with people that would have not have gotten in rooms with me alone. so that's kind of like so. That's like the the tradition. And so the reason it's co-pub is because it's like you're like it's like you're entering into a co-publishing deal with that publishing company, and now you guys are partners essentially in your copyrights. Whereas an admin deal, there's no transfer of copyright. So an admin deal is like you are gonna administer on my behalf, you are gonna register things and collect my royalties, but all of my copyrights are my own. I own everything. We are not partners here, you are a service, is where that is. And I think now um historically, admin deals were really for legacy artists, people that have already kind of proven themselves, but now that's like becoming less and less uh a thing, and there's lots of I I've only I've been um signing artists directly for five years. I've only ever done admin deals, um, which is awesome. I which I I really like to do.

Yeah, it's probably less risk for the publisher too, because I mean you guys aren't coming out of pocket crazy advances, right? Um with these admin deals. So, like on the on the co-pub deals, is it similar to a record label deal where like you throw a big advance and then there's a recoupment? Both admin and co-pub, um when you give an advance, it's to like it's meant to be recouped. So you still have to do recoupment on both sides. Um co-pub, you um you're recouping based on um like I the deal uh the deals can get a little, and again, like I I haven't actually signed a co-pub deal, so I'm like coming at it from that perspective, but um basically you're recouping, and then once that recoupes the publisher will still always have their 50%. You'll just start getting paid out on your 50%. Okay. So like basically, like they're you the publisher is bringing like keeping all the money until recoupment.

Yeah. And then they and then paid out, like that's what the advances are. Like you're getting paid out until it's recouped. But then once that's recouped, you're getting paid out on your 50%. percent. Until like a term. Is there a term when it expires? At which point you can ask for another advance. Everything has everything has terms, and there's like a reversion rates usually like built in. If it's a co-publishing deal, those might be for a long time. It just kind of depends. Like, um, and then admin, it's the same thing. Like, there's um, there's always a term on it, and you maybe it's like three years or recoupment. So it's like no matter what, you're in this deal for three years. If you're not recouped yet, the deal will extend to a certain period of time. And then some people can put in like hard outs in their contracts. Sometimes um there's like retention rates, and like it it all gets in the nitty-gritty of it. But like, but but essentially whether it's admin or co-pub, until it's recouped, like you get your advance, and then you kind of don't see money until it's recouped again. And then once it's recouped again, you get start you you get paid out directly based on like whatever your deal is.

Um, or you might have an option to be like, okay, great, I'd like to do this again, and like, and then we'll do a bigger advance or whatever, and then kind of keep it keep it rolling. But yeah, I think like look at it like it's a loan It's it's truly what it is. And um, and um I mean, what's nice is it's a loan that doesn't like fuck up your credit, like but I do think it's in your best interest to like unless you know it's in any circumstances and you're like I just need like a bunch of money right now because of whatever. I think it like I would always advise like put yourself in a deal that you think will be successful, like don't like be like, yeah, I think I can make 200k back like after three years. So I'll take that instead of like like X, Y, Z. and then I'm stuck in this deal for a long time, and I and it's hard for and like if I'm shopping for other stuff, it's futures only, and I can't bring my catalog, you know. Um are we accruing interest or are we just paying back exactly the 200k? Interest free loan, baby.

We love that. No interest, best type of loan. Yeah, yeah, it's just recouping back the advance amount. Yeah. So we joked about the like you know, person changing one snare and asking for a percentage. But I mean, what is the wildest claim to publishing that you've heard in your experience? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I've I've always seen that. I mean, I think it's always wild when someone kind of like brings in a friend, has like a friend drop by, and then that friend starts demanding stuff, and whether that was like a coherted effort between the two of you or not. Um, but but yeah, I think it's it again, it depends on like the rooms you're in and stuff, but I think things can get so muddy if you're like recording overnight, people are in and out of the studio, and it's really like you're kind of like hunkered in and writing a bunch of stuff, like that that can be so messy. It's like, you know, I like I wonder how many, it's like like a drug dealer, like comes in and hangs out, and it's like, does he get a percentage? Because like he altered the mindset.

I mean, yeah, maybe some of the stuff he was bringing, like really like took the song to another level, you know. Like you could argue that. I don't know. But I know rappers that have given like strippers percentages for being in the room and affecting the vibe of the room I absolutely support that because yeah that's great so but but so on on average then is it safe to say that like in your opinion session players shouldn't really deserve publishing session players no you would no they but they should be getting um like a rate for the day sure so that's where that's super important. Yeah they're not writing their parts or or anything like they're coming in to do service it's like it's like if I um if I paying someone to cut my hair like they don't have like a stake in my hair the rest of my life it's wild. you do have nice hair I mean um publishing should really be reserved for the people that are creating the intellectual property. It should be the people that are like writing the parts of that song not just playing them.

So if if people are like confused about this like whole topic obviously you know we think that our platform is a big resource for you know artists, songwriters, producers to like get a better understanding of these types of of topics within the industry. But other than us, like you know what are some of your favorite places to like point people to yeah so song trust um has a lot of really good resources like they've got like blog posts and articles where they kind of break things down. They also have like like video kind of tutorials and stuff like that. They've got a newsletter so I'd like if you go to I think it's like songtrust.com there's like lots of different resources and um you can kind of sign up to to get information, and um they've done such a good job at like breaking things down because like the with so I I work at Downtown Pub, which is like a more um like we have more creative services um and more of like a traditional publisher, but song trust is kind of like whole vision and business model is like anyone can sign up, everyone deserves to like get their stuff collected, but also a big part of that is like we need to educate a lot of these like songwriters, these indie songwriters, people that are just doing it themselves on what this whole business is. So Songtrust has tons of educational, like, workshops and things on it.

Oh, when when we first got started, I downloaded the like free or like publishing 101 guide. I don't know, I'll I'll link that one too in the in the description because that was like huge for me. Just them them visually depicting like master versus composition, and then like what you can get paid from each side and who administers it and collects it, and like all the it's there's like this like nice flow chart. If I remember like this is like eight years, you know, whenever I like first started out with you, it feels like forever ago at this point. Um, yeah, like it was so Song Trust was literally one of the ones that like I immediately went to Songtrust, yeah. In addition, of course, to Passman's book for sure. But it was like that was like the digital version, I feel like yeah, yeah, agree. I mean, I still like utilize it sometimes too, and especially like it's like yeah, I've been at downtown a long time, but I remember when Songtrust was making those, and I was like, Oh, that's great. Like, I would I'd like to look at that flow chart just to like who collects non-interactive Yeah. Fucking. Yeah. Yeah. Like, is there any other like podcasts or like YouTube channels or anything that you like? Well, so I I love I mean it's less educational, but I love Song Exploder, is like one of my favorite podcasts listened to, which is about like creating songs and to just like really hear about your favorite songs and how they came about, and that can kind of show you like the different like people that touch a song that be makes it become that, and you can kind of see like, oh, and that's why you write with people, and co-writing isn't always messy.

It can just be like really collaborative and cool. I also oh my god I'm blanking on the name but it's it's like the big songwriter like um and the writer is and the writer is yeah I was like because I've seen that one like I've seen so many clips from that podcast and that one is so cool. Like I I'm pretty sure they just had John Belly on on and of course those clips are going viral. But um but yeah that one's it sounds similar to Song Exploder where it's like focusing on kind of like the making of certain you know some of your favorite songs and kind of like get you know sneak peek behind the scenes on like how they were made and all the different people that were involved and just you know cool stories from behind the scenes. So yeah that one's dope for sure. Song shows recently hosted a uh songwriter camp I guess in collaboration with downtown in Nashville like you know we've been invited to certain camps as like media right to like interview people that are attending the camps. We've gotten to see kind of like different dynamics that exist like how how do you feel about like songwriter camps in general right? Because I feel like people have mixed reviews on you know how those can go right like so what was the flow of this one?

You know how do you think it went what what kind of like collaboration did you witness you know what I mean like talk to us about this experience in Nashville. I love songwriter camps. I mean I'm also I'm not a songwriter so I'm not the one that's like go I get to go in and meet everybody and hear everything that they do and get excited about it. I'm not the one that's like in there doing the work. But um I think songwriters camps can be awesome if they're like run well and the rooms are set up really intentionally. I think um it's it's a great way to like grow your network really fast. Um and also writer camps, like I think there's this additional bonding that goes on that's not just one session where it's like, yeah, there's the sessions that day, but then we usually like it's like everyone's hanging out for lunch and then everyone's hanging out for dinner, and maybe we do an activity afterwards. And so there's like an additional layer of bonding that I think helps the um probability that you'll work with these people again or that you'll stay in touch versus just like a one-off session. Um that the or that the music is gonna be better.

I mean, so many people have come on this podcast who have like worked on platinum multi-platinum records, and like the way that like they interacted with the artists, as soon as it transcended from like just we got set up for a session to then like we were playing video games, we were watching TV in the studio, we weren't even working on music, we were bonding and becoming friends. Then the next thing that happened is boom, hit record is made. Right. And so that there's there's gotta be a correlation between just we're all humans, dude. And like art is like the definition of like humanity kind of like coming in, you know, coming to life, right? Like through through art and in music, I feel like. So I mean that that part's gotta be huge. Yeah, well, and and writing a song, like creating a song is such a personal thing. Like it's and you're everyone's like putting their own experience and perspective into this. And so it really is like, I mean, some people are really good at just like showing up and and getting something out of someone for that day and then moving on. But I think what's so cool about a camp is it's just like you get a bunch of creatives together in like one location, and it just feels like this surge of like creativity and inspiration, and everyone's feeding off of each other.

Um, and by making it kind of like this camp and this concentrated thing, I feel like a lot of magic can happen. Being likable is such an underrated trait in the industry too. Just be a pleasure to work with. Yeah. it's it's it's crazy that sometimes, like, people forget about that, but it's it's all about, like, I'm like, what I want to be in a room with this person for six hours? Like truly, like, do you want to be in a room with that person for six hours? Like sometimes that's what it comes down to. And like when you're talking about that writer, like, yes, that like this is his job and he's a professional, but like his ability probably to go in and like crack something quickly and really draw something out, like that is a skill that he has honed over many, many years, many, many sessions. Like he is able to do that because he's been doing this and he's been like working at it. So so can you give us like a uh you know peek behind the curtain on the financials of being a songwriter? So you of course do not have to name names on like you know who I guess secured these deals, but like what does a deal look like, right?

So you mentioned you know you've done a lot of admin deals, right? Can you walk us through any just high-level budgetary numbers on like, hey, this person had songs with this many streams, right? We signed them to this type of admin deal. Here's the advance that we gave them, here's what the admin percentage, you know what I mean. Is there any like and I'm putting you on the spot here, but is there any like example deal that maybe comes to mind that can just help people understand like what is the realm of possible here, right? There are gonna be deals that are just speculative, and those are probably like publishers don't usually like to have risk. And if it's a speculative admin deal, I think you're you're looking at like more lower advances, um, just because that means like you don't have a catalog that that has proven how much this like if you bring in a catalog and then you're like, but I'm also bringing in this album, and I really believe in it, and everyone believes in it, it's easier for us to get more money for you if you have that catalog with you too, because it's like, okay, well, we know this catalog will make X amount um over three years, so that is guaranteed, and then we can give you a little bit extra for that future versus the other way around, where it's like if you're just like if it's just speculative, um it's it's can be hard to to predict and stuff. But I mean the thing about publishing is like publishers are completely fucked when it comes to streaming.

Like streaming does not like it is not an even split between what the master makes and what the publishing makes, and every time stuff like that, like everyone gets impacted down the line. And so if you had a hit song um in 2005 and you were songwriter and hit song in 2005, like you could buy a house with that. That's not the case anymore. But like it's it's truly not. Um, and and so that sucks, and so that will affect like how much advance could get put out and stuff. But the way we kind of calculate and analyze like what advance is there's the rate, so you can kind of negotiate like leaner splits depending. So it's like whether um the publisher is gonna take 15% or um you know you can you can keep going up from there, like 30%, 40%, whatever. Um I would say most admin deals is like in the like 10 to 20 percent range. Okay, okay. Um, so that affects like, and it's like the more percentage you give up, the bigger advance you get. I don't know if I can give you like exact numbers, but I think it's complicated to come up with that. It was so cool. I was like, oh my god.

And then every different, you know, company has gonna have their own way of doing it. So let me ask this: what's the biggest advance you've given? Okay. I like this game um you don't have to give me any more details unless you will but yeah no I've I've worked on deals that are like a million plus for for admin deal Wow. That's very, that's very like I think I think if you are writing a hundred percent of your music and you have songs that are like streaming in the like a couple million, like it's a safe bet, no but but that you're really only like that money is only making like a it's it's like a couple thousand dollars. Oof yeah I was like bro what are you talking about I was thinking like it would take it would take you a lifetime to recoup on a million dollars if you literally only had a few songs with a million streams. I mean, there's albums with millions of streams. Yeah, no, you're like in that, that, like, that deal is never recouping, like it takes like in like especially like think about a million dollars, like you could, you could land like three syncs that are in the like six figures, and you're still not, yeah, so who's getting the million dollar advances? What are they doing? Uh, people that have like a lot of streams, a lot of money, and a lot of sync coming in okay yeah like really really that's like very very established um people but damn now I want to know who it is and like also some people can't like majors have more money to like throw around and stuff and if you have a bidding war going on around you can you can get a lot more money than your catalog will ever make you know what I mean you can do that and then and sometimes like that is a risk and you're like great like let's you know but um but yeah. So but also keep that in mind.

Like you might not never make this back. So whatever that deal is, whatever the structure is, like be okay with the fact that you're gonna be planted there for a long time. I'm already on my yacht. So it's fine. No, and then listen, if you, if you want to write me a million dollar title, that's fine. Yeah. And I'll stay here. And yeah. And so then on the other side of the coin, what's maybe like, you know, on a more speculative deal, don't have a big catalog, but let's say a writer gets in front of an A and R like you, you really believe in them and their and their skills, right? Like, what does a speculative deal advance look like? Are we talking like a thousand, five thousand dollars? What I think a speculative deal could be anything from like around 5,000 to like 50. Okay. Okay. Okay. So it depends on what you have going on. It's a good range too. And, yeah, we feel like we can, we can do with you. And like I think coming from the sync world, like if I really believe in something for sync as well, like on top of everything that they're doing, and I'm like, this just feels like it's waiting to be in an ad. Um just sonically, uh, we might be a little bit like I might be a little bit more risky in the speculative, or or be like, because uh because I in my head, I'm like, if I get this one ad, I can make it back, you know?

Yeah. Another way to do it is just I think look at all the money that you make and it just decide if you didn't know you, which how much money would you give you? You know what I mean? Like to be honest with ourselves. Well, and and so how does someone, you know, like just let's talk about the speculative deal. How does that person get on your radar? Um, a lot of different ways. Like some some stuff I've signed that's speculative, it's like because I was a fan of the music and I found it and it was early on. But how did you find it? Oh, like just literally how did TikTok? TikTok Spotify, sometimes opening for an act that I was already going to see. Sure. Um, like I, for instance, like, I, um, I signed, uh, Annie DiRusso, and I found her on TikTok, like in 2020, just singing songs on her guitar. and I was like, oh, post on TikTok. Post on TikTok. It all comes everywhere. It all comes back to content. God damn it. I thought we were gonna get through a whole episode without saying the word content. No, never. And then Cabrera had to fuck it up and say TikTok. I would have said it eventually.

Her content was at least like it was her like singing songs that I really liked. It wasn't like outside of that, you know, where I was like, oh, this is a good songwriter. I really like what she's doing. Um, but also like managers and stuff, like managers that I have relationships with and people that I know will be like, hey, I just started working with this person, lawyers, um, friends at labels and stuff. It's like, you know, I like a lot of my friends work in the music industry. We all share music and talk about things, and um, yeah, it comes from a lot of different places, but usually it's like a friend of mine turning me onto something, or me just like kind of discovering it, whether it's through my own listening habits, online, at a show, you know, or and or sometimes it's like I have a writer, and then like they've been like writing and working with us like producer bunch or something, and I'm like, I really like what like she's been doing on this stuff. And then I'll be like, does she have a publisher? You know, it's just sometimes it's like it's through the network of of the people I already work with, of the writers I already work with, and yeah, it's who their collaborators are. And if I really like what they're all doing together, it's like, well, I might as well sign everybody if I can.

But you know, one way to guarantee you get on their radar, numbers don't lie, bro. If the data's hitting, if the data is the shit, if the streams are there, if the syncs are there, you're gonna find your way onto Ms. Cabrera's radar. I promise. You don't need to be friends with her friends, you know, cousin or anything. Because yeah, our audience can't really do that part. No, but no, I mean, you can. I mean, that just goes to networking. Exactly. That goes to like networking. You should 100% be networking, you know, collaborating. This this is another reason why you should collaborate, right? If you live in your own fucking bubble, how are you ever gonna be on the radar of someone who knows your collaborator if you don't have one, right? So like there, there is that. But like if the shit hits, if it's if it's hitting, then it's gonna find its way onto every AR research report that exists. You know what I mean? That's right. Uh well, Cabrera, we've entered a final segment of the podcast. This is the rapid fire rampage. Cabrera, it's gonna be a three-part rampage. We're just gonna start with some short answer questions.

Are you buckled up? Okay, hold on. All right, I'm ready. It is very important to buckle up. Yes. Starting with, how are you doing? Good. Moving on to what are, and we kind of covered this, but I do kind of just want to phrase it this way and see if we get anything else out of you. Some red flags to be aware of when signing a co-pub or an admin deal. Um I would say like unfavorable terms, like if things feel like it's overreaching, if people are asking for things that they wouldn't shouldn't normally be entitled to. Um also if you just get like bad like predatory vibes off these people, I think. Um, but yeah, I would say like if something has a really long term or like is like very um boxed in in what you can do, like work through that and make sure it's worth it and make sure you understand it. Sorry, that was not rapid fire.

I can't. No, that's good. That's what we're looking for right there. We've had much slower answers in our uh in our 200 You're in the top 50 percent. And if they're rushing you, that is a good one. Yeah. Like I like it, it's it'd be really weird to me if like the rights holders like, we need to get this done now. We definitely need to get this done now, and is rushing you and and you know, not letting your lawyer sit with it or or things like that. I mean, obviously it's there is a time frame sometimes with some things, but it it especially in publishing, it's it'd be really weird if someone's really rushing you to get something done. It's a classic scammer tactic. Like you must reset your password right now, you're at risk. So exactly. Moving on, Trump has just appointed you to the new position of music industry czar. You have the power to do whatever you want at this point. What is your first order of business? Oh man. Bro, the way she cringed when she just heard that Trump appointed her to anything. You have a lot of power now though.

Yeah, Trump could appoint her to queen of the world and she would decline, probably. I don't want to be in the room with that man ever. Um, okay, that's a really good question. Um I think I would uh give everybody health care, like artists, everyone. Um, whether that comes from the industry or just the government, but I think like giving everybody health care, I think would be awesome. Um I think for creatives to be able to have like a program where you get some universal basic income as well. I I would I think that would be a little UBI. Well, UBI. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Um so that they can create and have time to do this stuff and they don't need to um and I I think uh there's also like how many creatives have we not gotten to hear from because they they can't like they have to work a job that doesn't allow them to spend time on their art and stuff. Um so I do that.

I would also make um I would completely renegotiate like all the streaming uh deals and stuff with master and publishing and I would um get more fair terms for everybody on that especially publishers um and maybe like I think there's I would have to think about this a little bit but there are like some songwriters and stuff that are really advocating for master points um occasionally or for certain things just because like this the publishing side and the songwriter portrait has gotten so fucked over by the way the streaming is structured and the way the payments go out. But I think if I fix that on the streaming side then maybe we'd we'd be fine We'd take care of that yeah yeah. Do you have one trick tip word of wisdom something maybe you didn't get a chance to share just a quick like nugget that could benefit our independent artist community. Yeah I think if you are a songwriter or producer and I think if you're going into a session especially if you're starting off I think like my biggest advice is like be prepared like go in with ideas. You don't always have to use them you can kind of wait it out you can see how the room goes but if you have ideas if you're producer if you have some beats or you have some some tracks like prepared um you're like the person that saves the day if like we're stuck on something or you or if things start to lag like you can kind of come in.

So I would say always go in with a couple ideas like always come in if you're a lyricist come in with a concept or a couple concepts that you've been thinking on and you know and again you don't always have to use them that artist might say they might know exactly what they want to write about that day. But if not, then you're like, you're kind of they're like, they look to you as like the leader of the room, and you're like, oh, this is a great idea. And it kind of like sets everything off really great. I love that. So yeah yeah it's safety net. You know, it's it's something to jump off of. Session saver. That's huge. Yeah, I think it makes a huge difference. For sure. Last one with a short answer. What is your favorite curse word? Ooh. Um, I mean, I think it's boring, but fuck, I think, for sure. Um it's the crowd favorite. Yeah. Moving on to part two. This is the this or that. I'm gonna give you two choices. You just gotta pick one. This is where it actually gets a little more rapid fire here. Because we've been having a lot of fun getting off topic, but this is where it gets serious, starting with write 100 songs or 10 amazing songs. 10 amazing songs. Silly socks or silly hats.

Silly socks. Record the demo or pitch the idea. Record the demo. Korean barbecue or tapas? Tapas. Bigger advance or bigger back end? Bigger back end. Squid games or hunger games. Oh, I love the Hunger Games. I mean, I I don't support either games, but as a show. Download the ultimate split sheet by Song Trust for free, or don't download the ultimate split sheet by Song Trust for free. You should absolutely download the ultimate split sheet for by Song Trust for free. It's a great resource. It's free. Yeah. We've checked it out ourselves. It is a great free resource. Dude, I'd pay thousands for that split sheet. Right. The fact that it's free is diabolical on Songtrust. Indeed, indeed. Um concert or festival? Concert. Small producer gets a chance to work with major artists, but the artist doesn't want to talk about splits before during, just doesn't want to talk about it really ever. Um, work anyway or run away.

Work anyway. And finally, become a full-time singer-songwriter or leave the music industry forever. Oh, become a full time singer-songwriter. Let's go. we need art, we need art. Like now more than ever. Um, we need your perspective. We need your take on the world. But maybe have like a little bit of a side hustle that you can still make money with for a little while. That's not a bad idea. Not a bad idea at all. Last part is the word association. Cabrera, I'm gonna say one word. I just need you to give me the first word that you think of off the top of your head, as little thought as possible. There's no correct answers. You were only judged on speed. Here we go. Starting with music, headphones, Riz, charisma, publishing, royalties, salamander, gecko, splits, sheet, sashimi, sushi, spotify. Uh that's an acceptable answer, I think.

Yeah, that'll work. Purple, lavender, label, publisher, diamond, Rihanna. Podcast. One more time podcast. AI. Uh, um, Robocop. The ultimate frisbee. That's the funniest answer she could have ever said. That one did have a correct answer. It was split sheet, but frisbee's way funnier. We'll take it. What a rampage. What a rampage, what an episode. What an episode. This has been Cabrea Casey from Downtown Music Publishing. Appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you so much. So many publishing. I mean, I'm still confused on, you know, I mean, just we'll never get it. The only thing I heard was download the free ultimate split sheet by Songtrust. Like, that's the only thing that went in my brain. Actionable advice right there. For sure. Until next time, what are we doing? Getting out of here. Peace.

Thank you.