Rick Rubin "Audience Should Come LAST", 1st Week Album Sales Debate, & $700 Million Contract

Welcome back to another episode of the One More Time Show. Gems, takes and bullshit. Yes. Henry, kick us off with today's gem. Brought to you by Rick Rubin. My fave. And my guy, Uncle Ricky, man. It's a little too dark for me to see your uh Rick Rubin red glasses that you have on right now. But I am channeling him. I am wearing them. Uh he's been going pretty viral, I would say, for a guy that doesn't make content. doesn't want that. Doesn't even care about that at all. Yeah, he's going crazy right now. He is advertising his new book, so you kind of do have to do interviews and stuff uh when you're doing that. But there's a clip that's been making its rounds where he talks about an excerpt from the book, and it revolves around the audience coming last when you're creating and when you're making art and not thinking about the audience or feeling like you have to serve them and them actually coming last. And you make you make your art for yourself, and by doing that, how you actually end up serving them the best. Okay, give us like the example or examples that he used, like when when making this point.

He brought up movies. So when you think about like to me, I automatically he didn't say Marvel, but he thought it. I think of Marvel. He meant it. They're Squeezing every little thing they can out of this, you know, Marvel cinematic universe. They have a formula that works, and uh it's basically it's business. You know, it's like this hero in this world, and there's some laughs here, there's some sadness here, and there's this formula, and how there's not a person whose heart is really in the making of the movie. It's a bunch of people that are trying to make money, and it ends up not serving the art, and the fans kind of like it, but it ends up coming off kind of half baked, you know, and that's why people are starting to get pissed at these just remakes and reboots and formulaic ass art, man. You know? Yeah, I mean, his point was that like that's not what art is. It's not. So he he was very vocal about like that approach when it's just someone who is trying to make a product that he thinks the audience will like, like making it for other people, not just making it for yourself. Like he he deems that commerce, right?

Like that's that's business, that's not art. And so I struggle with this because clearly we're a music business podcast. Right, right. So we're not just a music podcast. We're not here to tell you like how chords can go together and styles of songwriting necessarily, right? Like, you know, we touch on these elements, we touch on the the music side of things here on the pod, but like, you know, all in all, we are a music business podcast. We're trying to help people learn how it is that people, you know, of certain levels of success in the music business have gotten to be where they're at, what's made them successful, how they've made money. What's working right now? Yeah. Because a lot of people always point to like people of the past, like, well, none of my favorite artists are on TikTok. It's like, well, guess what? They've been popping for a while. You ain't shit. Get with the times. That's my fucking like least favorite comment. Like it's the one I hate the most. Led Zeppelin ain't on TikTok. I fuck with them. Tom York wouldn't be on TikTok. I just made this song of the summer. Like that stupid fucking British girls video is going viral.

Anyways, we digress. But no, I mean, I I I struggle with it, man. I I really do because I understand what he's saying. Yeah. Uh the part that I super agree with that like I couldn't agree with more, is the fact that you do have to make music, right? You know, we're a music podcast podcast. So you have to make music that is authentic to you. So we talk about that a lot, right? And we talk about it in the sense of how that is going to translate to the to the masses. Because what is a marketer's job? It's like, how do we tell this story and how do we get the audience to connect to it? Yeah. When in the creation process, it's something that's very personal to the artist. And all of a sudden, oh boom, we want everyone to hear it though. So how do we translate something that he calls it a diary entry? Yeah. If it's a diary entry, a diarrhea entry. A diarrhea Yeah, yeah. Shout out top comments. Top comments. Never failed to do it. The internet always ruining a good, like wholesome moment. Yeah, yeah.

With some fucking bullshit, like turning diary entry into diarrhea tree. Like Jesus Christ. Anyways. But yeah, it's it's personal. It's meant to be for you. It's yours. So and and you end up serving the audience the best that way. But then when you go to market it, yeah, it's like, how do we get this diarrhea tree? So the most important thing. But what are we gonna do with this diarrhea tree? Yeah, no, shit on everyone. I I think you know, we had brand man Sean on here. Go listen to that interview, y'all. If you haven't, uh, it's amazing. It's full of gems with him and Corey from uh the no labels necessary podcast. Um and so basically we had them on, and he talked about how, like, as a as a you know, proficient marketer, he very much can build a world for you. He can write your diarrhea tree. Right. He can write your diary entry for you. He can build it, but no, no, he he can, right? But I think that what's gonna work best, and this is the point that he was making, and this is coming from a marketer. This isn't coming from a music maker, right?

This is coming from someone on the business side. His point was was that it's gonna it's gonna work best, it's gonna serve the most people, actually. If you, the artist, are making something and telling a story that is authentic to yourself. So in my mind, it actually the reason why Rick is so fucking great and why every album he's worked on and every artist that he's worked with has arguably, you know, gone platinum, charted, like, you know, made a great body of work that's resonated with people, whatever metrics you're using. Like he's been successful almost, you know, nine times out of ten, if not ten out of ten, right? Um, and I think it's because what he's saying, even though he takes this like, you know, hippie, like, I don't care about how it's received. It's exactly that approach though that works. Yeah. Not caring. Not caring, but also trying to, like, he's very introspective and he wants his artists to be introspective. Like, it's all about like looking inward, like what, you know, what story are you trying to tell? What feeling are you trying to, you know, evoke with your music?

And I think that that's what's that's what makes timeless music, bro. And that's what makes something that's different. You know why it's so hard now that I'm just now putting this together as we talk about it. Oh my god, this is great. This is amazing. Revelation. We are making so many headways right now. Artists, you know, are their own business and they are most of the time now their own business person and their own marketer. Yeah. So they're having to wear these two different hats that you have to be in very, very different mindsets for. Yeah. Because on one hand, it's like, okay, I'm in the studio today. It's like fuck the audience, don't think about the audience, like you just zone in on you. And then tomorrow it's like, okay, how do we market my last release? You gotta think completely different. Yeah. And it was done differently back in the day, you know, the artists could just be the artists and they could focus on them and their art and just make the art and then hand it off to the label who would have a team of people who are only focused on how do we sell this music. And now, you know, independent artists trying to win, trying to come up, they have to have both of those. So it's like it's probably stressful, you know, it's probably very anxiety-oriented, because and you don't want that anxiety in the studio.

No. Because the studio is supposed to be this fun, innocent, like free. Freeing ground, freeing place. Yes, where we're just like throwing shit around, playing with toys and just innocent, like nice, you know, almost like a kid or a kid in the studio, yeah. Creating. But now it's like you're your own businessman, you're a CEO the next day, and you gotta be very serious about how am I gonna sell this product. And it's such a different mindset that I think asking people to do both is tough, man. Yeah, but you want to hear my point? Because I actually I I we're we're making so many ways right now. Okay, like I because I just thought of this as you're talking. Yeah, okay. I agree. That is a that is a that's the current state of the music business, right? Like independent artists, especially are their own marketing, they're their own marketing team as much as they are the artists, right? Um, and I actually look at that, you know, whereas you're saying that that maybe makes things harder, which I agree in some ways it does, right? It's more stressful, it's more work. You can't just hand something to a label marketing team and say, hey, go market this, go sell this for me. Like, here's my art.

But but I feel like you're in control of the story. You're in control of how you market it. There's no naysayers, there's no people influencing you. Oh no, you should probably actually talk about this subject matter on your album. Oh, you should probably make, you know, these types of songs, oh, with these types of themes and with these producers and with these artist features, etcetera, right? It's true. There's no influence. You control the narrative. You control the narrative. So I agree that it's hard and it's more work, but I think that there's there's a reason why there's so many successful independent artists who are great marketers that have turned their art that they're not sacrificing, they're not making shit that they don't want to make. They're not releasing shit that they don't want to release, but they're able to just after they make the art. I I think it's it's exactly what you're saying, that you do have to separate the two. And that's the hardest part. I think most people that are the best at one of the two are gonna naturally struggle with the other. I I wouldn't, I would not disagree, but I just think it's the reality of the independent artist's journey right now is that you you do have to either A yourself do these things or B, like build out a team, right?

That's not saying like go get signed, you know, necessarily to a label, but like you do maybe need to find someone who you trust who shares the same vision. This goes back to like the artists having a strong vision and a strong, you know, narrative that they are trying to tell and to put out, you know, to the world. And it's about finding that person you trust who is proficient maybe in like the marketing side of it and in taking your art and your story that you're trying to tell and turning it into a like a forward-facing, like customer-facing product or version of that, right? How do you find that person? Bro, how do you find editors for podcasts? I don't know, how do you find fucking anyone? Like it's luck. It's luck and it's it's timing and it's timing, it's introductions, it's referrals, it's it's all these different things, right? It's not gonna happen overnight. So you're gonna probably have to do it on your own for a while until you, you know, by putting yourself out there and putting your art out there in your own story, you're gonna find someone who maybe does. I mean, shit, we found an editor that we're like starting to gel with, and like we think he's as passionate about this shit like as we are in some ways. So I think that it took us a while, and then maybe he's not the end all be all.

Maybe, you know, he don't you know, he goes on to do his own thing, you know, we go on to do our own thing, whatever. Please be the end all be all. Please, please be the end all be all. Be the guy. But but no, I I think it's a matter of, yeah, it's a matter of timing. It's a matter of um just shoot enough shots and you're gonna, you know, you're bound to find someone. But I I just look at it, you know, just just to close the loop. I I look at it as a a blessing, even though it it is a curse in some ways of like double the workload, having to separate the two, like sides of your brain very like distinctly, car compartmentalizing them so that when you do go in the studio, you're not obsessing over how is this gonna be marketed, who am I gonna market this to, whatever. Really just being true to yourself and making art that you know is gonna like make you feel something and that you feel very, very proud of, so that once that's done, then you can step out of the studio, put your marketing hat on, listen to it, think critically about who you are, what story you're trying to tell, and then you gotta start working yourself backwards into into the you know content strategy that that actually promotes it. It's just such a different side of the brain, man.

I just empathize for people who are very like either left brain, right brain. I've always said I'm very split. You know, I have this, I had this artistic, crazy artistic mom, and then I have a dad who's very like numbers and sci fi. And so I kind of have a little bit of both, but I just know there's people who are left brain oriented, right brain oriented, who like you know, want to be creative and make the craziest piece of content, but then it's like okay, now put your data hat on and check the numbers and the analytics. And I just know that that's hard for people, man. So I definitely empathize. But to your point, at least you do have the control. Used to be just the labels and the people with money and the powers that be decided, you know, who was getting the studio time, who was getting on MTV, who was getting on the radio. Yeah. Oh at least in the social era media, everyone does have a shot. Yeah. That that that's uh that's beautiful. Exactly. I think we gotta stop looking at all the negatives and like, you know, we get caught up in this of like, oh, like this is hard, this sucks. You know, we can't there's always something that's hard. Yeah, and there's always something that's easy.

And it's just leaning into what the current state is. And for sure, and just figure it out. And just playing ball. Yeah, you know, like this is this is where we're at. So it's like, let's let's look at it like an advantage, you know what I mean? Like, oh shit, I get to tell any fucking story that I want and put it out for free, borderline, right? Like with my iPhone. And people can res, it can find people, it can find a home. So I think it's fucking beautiful, man. But it's interesting though, like, because we have talked about also like, should you mold your music or change your music to fit like a TikTok or to have a moment that is content worthy. And it's like Rick would say, fuck no, right? Find the TikTokable moment later, maybe, but like, you know, we talked about Caitlin adding the little voice memo part. She even commented on our post when we were asking her, like, did you do that on purpose maybe for TikTok? I think she just gave us like a winky face or something. Yeah.

Which is like a yes in my mind. Yeah, but yeah, but for me, that still goes back to what Brandon and Sean and Jakory were saying, where like there's three different ways to go about it. There's being like very explicit, and like if you're a content creator at heart that just happens to make music as well, and you want to lean into that shit in the creative process, by all means fucking do it. Right. If you're the opposite of that, then the other side of the spectrum is don't think about it at all. And there's plenty of songs going viral right now on TikTok that were made in the fucking 50, that were made in the fucking 70s, right? And they're catching their own moment because they're timeless records or they have parts in there that the creator didn't create for TikTok, but you make it work, right? Like there's a way for people to use your art in ways you can never even fucking imagine, right? So then there's that side of the spectrum. And then there's the maybe the Caitlin thing where it's like, maybe you make the record, then you think more about it after you've left the studio, being like, hey, maybe I could actually like slide this little part in that would make it a little more marketable, like, you know, when I release it, right? There's kind of like that hybrid approach that we talked about.

So there are different ways to do it, man. Like there are. Rick would say, fuck that way. Rick would say, fuck it. And we love Rick, so fuck it. All right, man. Moving on to the take of the episode. Joey Badass basically had some choice words regarding uh first week album sales. So as y'all know, um, album sales, of course, historically only had to do with physical copies in a digital world. At first, it you know, was talking about iTunes downloads and those counted for album sales. Now there's some equations as far as like how many streams equate to one album sale, and you know, there's there's statistics that come out weekly about how did this person's album sell this first week? And there's this huge thousands of streams for a sale, right? Exactly. Yeah, it's it's something it's something ridiculous. Um but Joey basically said, you know, in regards to the first week sales, he said, just shut the fuck up and enjoy the music. So it's safe to say Joey Badass does not care about the first week album sales statistic. Yeah.

Okay. And for me, I want to give my take first. Uh it doesn't fucking matter. Literally could not 100% matter less. Yeah. It literally doesn't matter anymore. Right? Like, that is a vanity metric that the major label artists, like the Nicki Minajs of the world, where if they sell a lot, they're gonna use that as like a oh, this is so great. Look how much this album is amazing. So everyone else. did the highest Spotify streams in like one day, even for female artists like ever. Ridiculous, yeah, yeah. But but you know, regardless, then the media is gonna use anything negative into a negative story. Propaganda bullshit oh god love saying, oh, dude the beer sold only 2500. Exactly. Yeah, so so basically, the press is gonna use it in either a very positive light where they're trying to basically promote the record even more, being like, hey, look how awesome it is. The sales are so great. Everyone else who hasn't listened to it is going to go stream it paid by the label to do that. Very, very, very possible.

And then, you know, on the other side of the coin, um, you know, blogs want anything to fucking talk about, especially negative attention is usually the most attention. So they're gonna be like, oh, yeah, you know, if Nikki did flop right first week, they're gonna be like, oh, Nicki Minaj's album flopped, it didn't sell shit. Here's the shitty first week sales, this is why it sucks. Like, blah, blah, blah. Why isn't she? Is she falling off? They're gonna, you know, create some fucking narrative out of it, as they always do. Um, so for me, the reason why I, you know, I I have a point, and I guess a reason behind my answer of why they don't fucking matter is because just like I said that there's songs from the goddamn 1970s going viral, charting because of social media, yeah, because of content. Your song, it you should not be judging your song based on first week sales, whether you're a major label artist or whether you're just fucking releasing your first album, because it doesn't fucking matter to the life of the record. There are seven-year-old, eight-year-old songs going viral, charting, getting millions of streams a day. When they came out the first week, they were doing a thousand streams, whatever the fuck they were doing.

So for me, I don't want y'all to get discouraged. And this is more talking to our audience now about like even if y'all aren't getting covered by blogs about oh, the first week album sales from you know, independent artists XYZ, you're probably looking at your numbers and getting discouraged sometimes. If at the first week or the first day you're not doing whatever numbers you thought you should be doing, like whatever your expectations were going into it. I'm telling you, we've talked to people after people after people on this podcast alone who have had success years down the road with a song. So I I just I encourage you to not let those like initial metrics get you down and like stop you from working a record and stop you from believing in it because like it just hasn't found its home yet. Just like even these major label artists, the first week sales, that album might turn into some like huge audience's favorite album down the road because maybe something happens in the world that makes that album become so much more relevant, so much more meaningful. Or just one creator starts a trend Exactly. With their song and then it goes worldwide.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I mostly agree. Okay, well mostly agree. So I started off hot where you were like, oh my God, I fuck it. Yes, I fucking agree. I can't go all the way, they don't matter at all. Okay, what so it depends for me uh completely on your business plan, your strategy for monetization. So if I have this artist who I'm working with, and his monetization plan is like he's not selling merch, he's not really doing shows, like all this kid's money is coming from sales or streams, and we've put a giant plan around the first week being important. We made all this content. We made we're dropping a video every day the first week, and we have all these influencers we've paid to drop their content uh with using our music in the first week, and like we were banking on this first week. Oh god, and and it and shit flops. Oh god. You're kind of in trouble. You're making me you just got me so anxious.

You're in trouble if that's the case. Oh my god. But ideally, that's not your plan because to your point, yes, you can put life and effort into a song at any point. Once it's out, it's out. You can decide to post about it or work the record at any point. So um, but you know, it it's it's unique for every artist. Every artist has a different plan. Um hopefully you're releasing more songs more frequently instead of maybe like one album a year and the first and we're banking on the first week of the one album dropping the one time this year. Um, because that is stressful, and I made myself anxious just saying that out. Dude, I was like, holy shit. Yeah, but you know, if you if that's your plan and your strategy is like we're banking on first week, and you don't do good on the first week, then yeah, you you know, you're probably in some hot water. Then they matter. Kind of matter to you. But to your point, ignore the headlines, they're all bullshit, propaganda for clicks, nobody gives a fuck. Um, and just yeah, live your life, have your plan, stick to it. Those those numbers are ain't shit anymore.

For sure, man. All right. So moving on to the bullshit section of the pod. Otani is getting 700 million dollars. What this you know this Japanese baseball playing superstar, right? Uh yeah, of course. Shohei Ohtani. Of course. Just signed to the Dodgers. Can you tell I'm lying? For sure. Oh no, I couldn't. I was like, this is what happens when we're not video. Okay, there's a Japanese dude. He's like a babe Ruth. He's one of the best pitchers and hitters in the league. We don't see that anymore. That is not a thing. I'd never heard in baseball. Wow. He's uh a phenom. And he was talking to the Braves. They were maybe gonna get in those talks, but no, I didn't think we were ever gonna get him. Um not for that price tag. God bro, damn it. 10 years, 700 million dollars. He's making 70 million dollars a year. For reference, 70 million is more than the Braves pay their entire infield. So it's like what the fuck, man. So who do you go to?

Baseball has the Dodgers, uh, of course. Yeah, it was either them or the Yankees. Big City, and no salary caps in baseball, uh, which is insane. Obviously, these teams can afford shit like that. Yeah, I picked the wrong sport growing up, man. I should have just went all in. I'm making sure my son goes all in in baseball, bro. Yeah. For sure. That's the meal ticket. Absolutely. And pitching specifically. Pitching and hitting Well, if you could do both, don't even try that. This kid's a black sheep. Like he's a one in a million needle in a haystack type of deal. But that's just I just want I had to mention that. That's fucking insane. Shout out to Otani, man. The Japanese sensation. Nah, I just I just wanted to bring up the fact that like I feel like you knew this, but you know, maybe our audience didn't. Like, I went through a phase, man, where I was really just listening to podcasts. Like, you could ask me, like, yo, did you hear the new this album and knew this song? And like, as a music podcaster, it was kind of sad. Like, my answer was like I listen to music at an all-time low right now. Okay.

Still. Okay. But this is what I'm bringing up. I've there's been it, there's been a pendulum shift, bro. Getting back into it. I'm getting into music again, and I'm fucking loving it. Beautiful. Oh my God, bro. Like, I'm just, I'm like looking at what my friends are sharing, and I'm tapping into whatever they got going on. I'm going back to like catalog shit, old music that I fucked with back in the day, and it's making me feel like so nostalgic and put me back in like different moods and different time, you know, eras of my life. And it's just like, oh, it's been so beautiful. And I'm finding new music from I'm going to like the likes of kids takeover and just like other blogs that I fuck with that are, you know, putting on, you know, that good shit, Annabelle. Uh anything they're sharing, I'm kind of checking out. It's been like fun, bro. Like the headline of this is music podcasters starts listening to music again. Yeah, I mean, bro, like just fuck, man. I just crazy as much content as we were making, and like as like much as I wanted to like learn about podcasting and become better at podcasting. Like I thought that that was like a valuable thing, and I just got sucked into like, I don't know, just in my life, the the places and the times like that I was consuming content, just happened to be like more friendly to podcasting, I guess. Um, but no, dude, like I'm loving it, bro.

I'm back on the music train. So submit all your music for me to listen to. My DMs are wide the fuck open because I want to hear new shit. Yes. I've been loving the live streams of the live streams that we've been doing. That's been getting me like pumped because we've been hearing some really really cool shit. Yeah. Um, and so that's been getting me excited. I've been listening to like some of our submissions over and over again. Um so yeah, man. I just wanted to bring up the fact that like your boys listening to music. Let's go. And it's fucking beautiful. Well, you put me on the Nevi, which I'm excited about. So anything that you're obsessed with, but feel free to send mine. I will, I will, for sure, man. All right, this has been another episode of the One More Time Show. As always, please follow us on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify Podcasts, leave us a five-star review. Or if you listen to one of the other weird little ones, do that, do it there too. Yeah, it's true. Do they have do they have reviews? Probably. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Okay, well, if they got five-star reviews, leave those. Um, because our five-star reviews have been like climbing, bro. Or if it's a rotten tomato score, you know, maybe skew 90 plus would be great. I mean hundreds.

Only, bro. Only hundreds. Nah, that that's love, man. I appreciate everyone who always tunes into these. These are audio only. Um, and yeah, we're gonna keep doing these as much as we can. So let's get it. Till next time. Get out of here. Peace.